AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #5

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IMO there is no need to "build" he already is......nothing wrong with speculating why and stating opinions.

You are exactly right.

For years and years we have been discussing many murder defendants and speculating how they came to be the way they are. Even discussing how their parent or parents may have helped create who they became. We certainly did not have the psyche analysis on them either but we did have information that had come out to base those speculative arguments on and imo we also have it in this one. We never know every little intricate detail on any defendant.

If some wish to believe that having his mother missing from his life didn't phase him a bit and left him unscathed, then they are entitled to believe that but others who do believe that it did play an important role, also have a right to believe and express that as well.

imoo
 
If some wish to believe that having his mother missing from his life didn't phase him a bit and left him unscathed, then they are entitled to believe that but others who do believe that it did play an important role, also have a right to believe and express that as well.

imoo

I totally agree, plus the fact that he had been visiting with his mother immediately before the murders was interesting as well. I always thought that maybe he killed his dad so he could live with mom... just my opinion.
 
I totally agree, plus the fact that he had been visiting with his mother immediately before the murders was interesting as well. I always thought that maybe he killed his dad so he could live with mom... just my opinion.
I have long felt this just might be the case. Esp after reading the witness statements of two individuals who indicated that his mother put him up to it. If that turns out to be true, I hope they prosecute her.

As for the missing mom and child development? Research does indicate a significant correlation as it pertains to attachment (a key socialization element) and the child's relationship with the birth mother during their formative years, specifically between birth and two years of age.

With this in mind, and imho, it is possible that this child did not form the necessary attachment that is considered to play a crucial role with regard to empathy. If this is indeed the case, it could explain why he might see killing as a way to address something he does not like.

The big however being that, imnsho, he is still not cognitively developed enough to plan and execute a cold blooded murder. Such requires a degree of sophistication that is simply not cognitively possible for someone his age. That is, not in the adult sense of planning and executing.

Otoh, he is well within the cognitive developmental cycle to have reacted from more of an animalistic pov (i.e., "I'm mad at dad, so I'll show him!"). And, without that key element of empathy, the tantrum can become deadly, and the child may feel no remorse whatsoever for the outcome.
 
I absolutely agree that people who were neglected, abused or abandoned as children often grow to be criminals in some way. But those tendancies don't normally manifest until the teenage or adult years. In this particular case, I can't imagine this child could have identified or acted upon abandonment issues unless someone specifically drew his attention to it. Maybe telling him, in terms a child could understand, that his mom left him or didn't love him. Then again, in that case, I would tend to believe his anger would have been directed at his mom or other women in general.

For those who truly believe this boy is guilty, please tell me why his seemingly uncontrollable anger would have been directed at his father. By all accounts, he was a good father who spent a lot of time with CR. I guess we'll have to assume that's true. If he hated Tiffany and felt abandoned by his mother, why would he kill Vincent?

Doesn't make any sense at all to me.....
 
Such an interesting thread.

I'm too sleepy to write much, but did want to say the nature/nurture debate always comes into play when people murder - even moreso when young children murder. The parents/caretakers rarely escape unscathed. Nurture is hugely, hugely important - we all know that. On the other hand, I hold the strong opinion that some of us come into this world severely broken and seemingly unreachable.

I cannot say unequivocably that this child is a psychopath. I can say that if we accept that he did this (and I personally haven't had a hard time doing that), we have to accept that what he did is extreme enough to consider him very broken on some level. There is evidence that there was some dysfunction in his home, but there is no evidence that he was severely abused. IMHO.

I believe those involved most personally in his case are trying to get him a great deal of help. I hope there is a brighter path in his future.
 
Such an interesting thread.

I'm too sleepy to write much, but did want to say the nature/nurture debate always comes into play when people murder - even moreso when young children murder. The parents/caretakers rarely escape unscathed. Nurture is hugely, hugely important - we all know that. On the other hand, I hold the strong opinion that some of us come into this world severely broken and seemingly unreachable.

I cannot say unequivocably that this child is a psychopath. I can say that if we accept that he did this (and I personally haven't had a hard time doing that), we have to accept that what he did is extreme enough to consider him very broken on some level. There is evidence that there was some dysfunction in his home, but there is no evidence that he was severely abused. IMHO.

I believe those involved most personally in his case are trying to get him a great deal of help. I hope there is a brighter path in his future.

You are such a diplomat SCM! And under any other circumstances, I would agree with you 100%. However, with those who come into this world broken or unreachable, there are ALWAYS telltale signs. In this case, we have seen no evidence of that. Without knowing much, much more, I just cannot find it in my heart to call this child an evil, bad seed. There's no question that his life, up until the murders, was not what most of us would consider to be ideal. However, that could be said for many, many children who do NOT murder their parents.

Again, to those who believe he is guilty, I must ask WHY? None of the theories I have seen explain what allegedly happened here. Hated his stepmother? She is still living. Hated his mother? She too, still living.

The victim's advocates who post here would have us believe Vincent was a perfect, loving, attentive father. There are some who believe Eryn is an evil, jealous, vindictive witch. Yet others believe that Tiffany was the "evil" stepmother.

None of these scenarios make sense to me when considering the end result.
 
I have long felt this just might be the case. Esp after reading the witness statements of two individuals who indicated that his mother put him up to it. If that turns out to be true, I hope they prosecute her.

As for the missing mom and child development? Research does indicate a significant correlation as it pertains to attachment (a key socialization element) and the child's relationship with the birth mother during their formative years, specifically between birth and two years of age.

With this in mind, and imho, it is possible that this child did not form the necessary attachment that is considered to play a crucial role with regard to empathy. If this is indeed the case, it could explain why he might see killing as a way to address something he does not like.

The big however being that, imnsho, he is still not cognitively developed enough to plan and execute a cold blooded murder. Such requires a degree of sophistication that is simply not cognitively possible for someone his age. That is, not in the adult sense of planning and executing.

Otoh, he is well within the cognitive developmental cycle to have reacted from more of an animalistic pov (i.e., "I'm mad at dad, so I'll show him!"). And, without that key element of empathy, the tantrum can become deadly, and the child may feel no remorse whatsoever for the outcome.

Great post.
 
You are such a diplomat SCM! And under any other circumstances, I would agree with you 100%. However, with those who come into this world broken or unreachable, there are ALWAYS telltale signs. In this case, we have seen no evidence of that. Without knowing much, much more, I just cannot find it in my heart to call this child an evil, bad seed. There's no question that his life, up until the murders, was not what most of us would consider to be ideal. However, that could be said for many, many children who do NOT murder their parents.

Again, to those who believe he is guilty, I must ask WHY? None of the theories I have seen explain what allegedly happened here. Hated his stepmother? She is still living. Hated his mother? She too, still living.

The victim's advocates who post here would have us believe Vincent was a perfect, loving, attentive father. There are some who believe Eryn is an evil, jealous, vindictive witch. Yet others believe that Tiffany was the "evil" stepmother.

None of these scenarios make sense to me when considering the end result.

You make some great points, Fairy1, - many of which I agree with completely. I think that it is of little help to us in considering this case to deify one of this child's parents and vilify the other. That doesn't "fit" with what I am seeing either.

Thing is - we are all doing a lot of guesswork here and so our outspoken (LOL) opinions are, of course, going to be informed by our own ideas and perspectives. We are trying to make the few facts we think we have fit with what we think happened. Just SO many unknowns, you know?

One thing I will disagree with in your post is that broken people ALWAYS show signs. I think many severely broken people learn to blend in and "hide" their difference at a young age. Yes, broken kids often show signs, but not always - maybe not even most of the time.

And that is what makes this case so hard - we could maybe wrap our minds around an 8-year-old who was being badly abused by one or two men in his home and then exploded one day and hunted them down and killed the. We could maybe wrap our minds around an 8-year-old with a history of aggressive, antisocial behavior both at school and at home who one day snapped and killed two people. But neither of those scenarios seem to be the case here and so we are left wondering what the hell really happened.
 
I absolutely agree that people who were neglected, abused or abandoned as children often grow to be criminals in some way. But those tendencies don't normally manifest until the teenage or adult years. In this particular case, I can't imagine this child could have identified or acted upon abandonment issues unless someone specifically drew his attention to it. Maybe telling him, in terms a child could understand, that his mom left him or didn't love him. Then again, in that case, I would tend to believe his anger would have been directed at his mom or other women in general.

For those who truly believe this boy is guilty, please tell me why his seemingly uncontrollable anger would have been directed at his father. By all accounts, he was a good father who spent a lot of time with CR. I guess we'll have to assume that's true. If he hated Tiffany and felt abandoned by his mother, why would he kill Vincent?

Doesn't make any sense at all to me.....

I am not sure murder ever really makes sense. Murder imo is an illogical act, that if the perp thought about it beforehand, would see that as well but they don't seem to reflect on the overall view and use violence as a way to solve what they seem to perceive is an obstacle of some kind and simply eradicate that immediate obstacle. They tend to not look beyond that act and realize they have now opened up many more obstacles in their path.

Imoo, I don't think the boy had the capability to connect with his father. No matter how good or loving a father he was to this boy imo it just did not sink into this boy's heart and mind. I think he saw his father as an obstacle. Someone that made the rules that he did not want to follow. His father being there and in control of him, when he did not accept the father's love or his teachings. I think that is why he was defiant and lied right to his father's face and also threatened him. Imo it shows that the boy did not fear Vinnie because if so, he would have curtailed the lying that got him in so much trouble and would never ire his own father, by personally telling him that he is going to kill him. It was like it had become a game of tug and war between a father and his son. Things Vinnie wanted the boy to do he did the opposite.

I think even getting the weapons when his father wasn't around were defiant acts. He felt it gave him the power, not his father, who had told him to NEVER touch the weapons unless he was there. Also he knew he was not to walk around the neighborhood when Tiffany or Vinnie weren't there but there again, he admitted that he did it. Another type of rebellion against the parents' rules.

In one of the witness's statement they said that the boy bullied his younger relatives. In another it said that he was a leader and could get the other kids to do what he wanted. Imo, in this boy's mind there was no room for two leaders in the Romero household.

imo
 
I absolutely agree that people who were neglected, abused or abandoned as children often grow to be criminals in some way. But those tendencies don't normally manifest until the teenage or adult years. In this particular case, I can't imagine this child could have identified or acted upon abandonment issues unless someone specifically drew his attention to it. Maybe telling him, in terms a child could understand, that his mom left him or didn't love him. Then again, in that case, I would tend to believe his anger would have been directed at his mom or other women in general.

For those who truly believe this boy is guilty, please tell me why his seemingly uncontrollable anger would have been directed at his father. By all accounts, he was a good father who spent a lot of time with CR. I guess we'll have to assume that's true. If he hated Tiffany and felt abandoned by his mother, why would he kill Vincent?

Doesn't make any sense at all to me.....

I can't explain it logically. But I will share with you my experience as a therapeutic foster parent. Most of the children I fostered desperately wanted to be with their HORRIBLY abusive biological mothers that abandoned them. They showed resentment toward the people that did love them and treated them fairly. Some children would question out loud to me and in therapy, how could a total stranger treat them better and care for them more than their own mothers ? They tended to be very angry and can never seem to get it together, even as adults. It's rare when a child accepts the situation for what is truly is and can walk away and bond to another.

I think this kid was very very angry and would have done anything to be with just a mother. I think this kid did love Tiffany, I have no question in my mind about that. I believe he blamed his father for Eryn's abandoning him instead of holding her responsible for her actions. IMO She better be very careful if he ever comes to the realization that his father wasn't to blame.....
 
I'm too sleepy to write much, but did want to say the nature/nurture debate always comes into play when people murder - even moreso when young children murder. The parents/caretakers rarely escape unscathed. Nurture is hugely, hugely important - we all know that. On the other hand, I hold the strong opinion that some of us come into this world severely broken and seemingly unreachable.
I personally tend to shy away from the deterministic pov (nature) as well as the blame game pov (nurture), though I do think both play a role wrt individual outcomes. The nature/nuture debate is, of course, as old as the hills (just check out phrenology, for example), and still rages in psychology circles around the globe.

Even so, there does appear to be a trend toward the biopscyhosocial model of human behavior. Where bio involves physiological components, such as naturally occurring chemical imbalances (i.e., hormones, diabetes, etc), non-naturally occurring chemical imbalances (i.e., fetal alcohol syndrome, drug abuse), and genetics. Psychological refers to a person's psychological make up (how do they perceive the world around them?). For example, traits such as intraversion (self-validation) & extraversion (other validation), belief systems, interests, etc. And social refers to the social environment within which a person finds themselves at any given time. Where social environment is quite succinctly described in Urie Bronfenbrenner's ecological systems theory (i.e., immediate & extended family, school, community, and society at large).

With this in mind, I am of the contention that people are not born "broken" nor are they "blank slates" to be written upon by their parents. Rather, they can be predisposed to certain trajectories (such as bipolar, schizophrenia, and even psychopathy, etc), and both their psychological makeup and the environment within which they may find themselves will play a role wrt to the final outcome. This, btw, is quite different from the somewhat black-white "Nature v Nurture theories, bc the individual is not a passive player where things are "done" to him via nature OR nuture, rather he is a necessary participant in the making of his world.

For example, let's say little Johnny engages in a behavior that is considered socially unacceptable by both his peers and the adults within his social circle—be that immediate family, school, and/or community. His social circle will react from their own world view within their particular culture. And, dep upon little Johnny's genetic makeup and psychological traits, he will desist the behavior, repeat it, or somewhere between. The results may bring more reaction or nothing at all. In turn, little Johnny may react to the response (or non-response) with more acting out, socially acceptable behavior, or something in between. And so on and so forth.

In effect, what you end up with is a social feedback loop, where we react to the reactions of society around us, who are reacting to our actions. Think butterfly effect or game theory. Both of which are based in chaos theory.
 
I can't explain it logically. But I will share with you my experience as a therapeutic foster parent. Most of the children I fostered desperately wanted to be with their HORRIBLY abusive biological mothers that abandoned them. They showed resentment toward the people that did love them and treated them fairly. Some children would question out loud to me and in therapy, how could a total stranger treat them better and care for them more than their own mothers ? They tended to be very angry and can never seem to get it together, even as adults. It's rare when a child accepts the situation for what is truly is and can walk away and bond to another.

I think this kid was very very angry and would have done anything to be with just a mother. I think this kid did love Tiffany, I have no question in my mind about that. I believe he blamed his father for Eryn's abandoning him instead of holding her responsible for her actions. IMO She better be very careful if he ever comes to the realization that his father wasn't to blame.....

Thank you, Linda. I appreciate your view and understand where you're coming from. It does make a lot of sense. I have never truly believed this child was guilty, but I can see how he may be. In any case, I don't believe he is a "bad seed" but perhaps a product of his upbringing and environment. I'm not a fan of the "blame game," but when considering an 8-year-old child, I just have to believe there are factors involved that we do not - and probably never will - know. Something happening in this child's life affected him deeply.
 
Thank you, Linda. I appreciate your view and understand where you're coming from. It does make a lot of sense. I have never truly believed this child was guilty, but I can see how he may be. In any case, I don't believe he is a "bad seed" but perhaps a product of his upbringing and environment. I'm not a fan of the "blame game," but when considering an 8-year-old child, I just have to believe there are factors involved that we do not - and probably never will - know what was happening in this child's life.
Very well said.I agree.
 
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/default.aspx

New documents are up

The mother is a PIECE OF WORK!

Read : Request to Terminate Furlough 06052009.pdf

Apparently,

Mommy is back shacking up with the felon AGAIN & the boy sleeps there....

someone allowed him to run loose into a dug out at a ball game causing quite a commotion.

took the boy out of state without permission

missed his court ordered schooling

oh...and mommy can't even afford to take her own kid to the dentist

Granny wants to buy a gun and inquired as to just how much trouble would she be in if she did
scared.gif


Next hearing June 16 @ 11am
 
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...TAM&SECTION=US

Prosecutors have asked a judge to return a 9-year-old Arizona boy awaiting sentencing in the death of his father's friend to juvenile detention, saying his family is failing to ensure that he and the community are safe.

Apache County Attorney Michael Whiting said the boy violated numerous conditions of his furlough, including leaving the state without permission and missing court-ordered schooling sessions. Defense attorney Benjamin Brewer said proving the allegations will be difficult, and he questioned whether they are serious enough to warrant the boy's return to custody.

more at above link
 
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...TAM&SECTION=US

Prosecutors have asked a judge to return a 9-year-old Arizona boy awaiting sentencing in the death of his father's friend to juvenile detention, saying his family is failing to ensure that he and the community are safe.

Apache County Attorney Michael Whiting said the boy violated numerous conditions of his furlough, including leaving the state without permission and missing court-ordered schooling sessions. Defense attorney Benjamin Brewer said proving the allegations will be difficult, and he questioned whether they are serious enough to warrant the boy's return to custody.

more at above link

I get the distinct feeling this boy is not welcome in this town. I am not surprised by any of this and this is the woman that is supposed to make sure this kid keeps his nose squeaky clean for the next 9 years? Ain't gonna happen, imo.

imo
 
I get the distinct feeling this boy is not welcome in this town. I am not surprised by any of this and this is the woman that is supposed to make sure this kid keeps his nose squeaky clean for the next 9 years? Ain't gonna happen, imo.

imo

Ya think? No one was looking out for this child before the murders and no one is looking out for him now. FGS, what chance does he have of ever being okay? Nothing but self-absorbed parents who just couldn't bring themselves to put this child's well-being before their own selfish desires. ALL of the "adults" in his life are every bit as guilty as he is - IMO. At this rate, there is no chance he will ever be okay. Idiots.

And please don't tell me the "murderer" - only - is responsible for his actions. We are talking about an 8-year-old CHILD whose emotional and mental health was - and still is - of no concern to any of his caregivers.
 
Ya think? No one was looking out for this child before the murders and no one is looking out for him now. FGS, what chance does he have of ever being okay? Nothing but self-absorbed parents who just couldn't bring themselves to put this child's well-being before their own selfish desires. ALL of the "adults" in his life are every bit as guilty as he is - IMO. At this rate, there is no chance he will ever be okay. Idiots.

And please don't tell me the "murderer" - only - is responsible for his actions. We are talking about an 8-year-old CHILD whose emotional and mental health was - and still is - of no concern to any of his caregivers.

What selfish desires did Tiffany and Vinnie have? From what I have read Vinnie was a doting father who took his son with him many places and worked hard to provide for his family. Tiffany did the best she could to represent a mom that he never had. She and Vinnie had just come to the school in support of their son a day or so before Vinnie was murdered. Others mentioned that the boy was often seen with Tiffany. They certainly never abandoned him and ran off leaving him for someone else to raise. I bet they even took him to the dentist when he needed to go too.

Of course he will never be the same. Neither will the victims. Double homicides have a way of making people forever changed.

imo
 
I always felt like there was a reason this child was being raised by his Father and not his Mother. I am so very sad she has been unable to care for him. I will hold out hope that he will be better served in a foster home, though I have my doubts.
 
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