CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #10

[Allusonz]

Cubby would love to discuss this further but I do find that after just getting out of the hospital that I do need to look back on some of these discussions. As I get stronger, I am certain I will post additional thoughts when I feel stronger physically.

Have super day all....

 

[Cubby]

Feel better soon, Allusonz! We'll be here when you are feeling 100%.

Take care,
Cubby

 

[Cubby]

We know that Mr. Harrod kept meticulous notes. Where is any evidence that he planned in advance to have his son in law do any work in his home the day he disappeared?

I've seen no punch list of materials needing to be purchased. No punch list of items or area's needing repair. No estimates for necessary repairs.

Are we to believe a man who kept meticulous notes had not written one single thing about the home repairs he allegedly requested his son in law repair - last minute within 12-18 hours of a heated family argument over money?

 

[Allusonz]

No, I never used any of my own funding to make the deal work. That was against licensing law and I was not willing to go to prison or lose my livelyhood over making the deal work in any illegal fashion.

In fact, there was one deal I had to formally - in writing - remove myself as the buyers representation due to some very shady and illegal attempts in obtaining a mortgage commitment. It was not worth prison, hefty fines or anything of the likes for me.

The real estate agent does not physically transfer money.

They lower their commission rates which enables additional breathing room for the buyer/seller in negotiations. This is after all money that goes into a trust account from which it is dispersed.

 

[Allusonz]

Feel better soon, Allusonz! We'll be here when you are feeling 100%.

Take care,
Cubby

Thanks Cubby!

I will be extremely glad when they do the surgery so I don't poop out so fast.

 

[Cubby]

The real estate agent does not physically transfer money.

They lower their commission rates which enables additional breathing room for the buyer/seller in negotiations. This is after all money that goes into a trust account from which it is dispersed.

There is nothing a realtors commission can do in regards to mortgage contingencies necessary to obtain funding. Two entirely different things.

What you are talking about might occur when a realtor is trying to secure a listing agreement. Commisions are negotiable and in markets where it is customary for the seller to pay commission, the commission is determined at the time a listing agreement is signed-before a sales contract is written. Unless it is a FSBO, which AH's was not. There were two realtors involved, one for each the buyer and seller.


Or a realtor may agree to pay for certain costs which would be taken out at closing. For example maybe pay for repairs agreed upon in an inspection. However all closings have a RESPA which is an accounting of the costs associated on both sides of the transaction at the closing. This is a legal requirement and anything else would not be ethical or illegal if it is done under the table so to speak.

A mortgage lender has specific contingencies which must be met via various documentation and his kept with a file. These are requirements which all mortgage lenders follow in order to be able sell their loans on the secondary market.

http://www.[link removed]/mortgage/guidelines.shtml

Here are some rules of thumb most lenders follow:

• 12 plus months positive credit will usually equal an A paper loan program, depending on the overall credit. FHA loans usually follow this guideline more often than conventional loans.
• Unpaid collections, judgments and charge offs must be paid prior to closing an A paper loan. The only exception is if the debt was due to the death of a primary wage earner, or the bill was a medical expense.
• If a borrower has negotiated an acceptable payment plan, and has made on time payments for 6 to 12 months, a lender may not require a debt to be paid off prior to closing.
• Credit items usually are reported for 7 years. Bankruptcies expire after 10 years.
• Foreclosure - 5 years from the completion date. From the fifth to seventh year following the foreclosure completion date, the purchase of a principal residence is permitted with a minimum 10% down and 680 FICO score. The purchase of a second or investment property is not permitted for 7 years. Limited cash out refinances are permitted for all occupancy types.
• Pre-foreclosure (Short Sale) - 2 years from the completion date (no exceptions or extenuating circumstances).
• Deed-in-Lieu of Foreclosure - 4 year period from the date the deed-in-lieu is executed. From the fifth to the seventh year following the execution date the borrower may purchase a property secured by a principal residence, second home or investment property with the greater of 10 percent minimum down payment or the minimum down payment required for the transaction. Limited cash out and cash out refinance transactions secured by a principal residence, second home or investment property are permitted pursuant to the eligibility requirements in effect at that time.
• Chapter 7 Bankruptcy - A borrower is eligible for an A paper loan program 4 years after discharge or dismissal, provided they have reestablished credit and have maintained perfect credit after the bankruptcy.
• Chapter 13 Bankruptcy - 2 years from the discharge date or 4 years from the dismissal date.
• Multiple Bankruptcies- 5 years from the most recent dismissal or discharge date for borrowers with more than one filing in the past 7 years.

Just looking at the above, I do not see how AH qualified. Which is why LE should take a look..... No stone left unturned with the investigation into Bob Harrod's disappearance.

 

[Cubby]

Real Estate Settlement Procedures Act (RESPA)

http://www.exclusivesanjosehomes.com/CA-real-estate-law/settlement-procedures.htm

For those who feel like reading up a bit on RESPA, which is a federal law and is part of the escrow or closing process. Different terms in different markets.

IIRC, all parties involved in a transaction, including the lender get a copy of the RESPA. All this is part of the file so in the future, should ANY mortgage go into default it can be investigated for fraud. This is done all the time...... to determine where fraud exists, if it exists, in any of the involved parties.

 

[Cubby]

CA CA - Bob Harrod-Court Documents No discussion - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community



Specific post with the link to AH's deposition in which he discusses his non payment of the mortgage his grandfather, the missing person in this case, held:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA CA - Bob Harrod-Court Documents No discussion

 

[GrainneDhu]

Regarding the Disappeared show, once again I am going to urge caution. There have been many cases I have followed in which stories have been aired. They are not always "factually correct".

In the short clip I saw, the cleaning service stated emphatically that Bob Harrod ALWAYS made his bed. I honestly had to scratch my head on this one as there is one thing mine always do and that is change the bed sheets.

We as well know that Bob Harrod spoke to someone "outside" of the family. This means that he was up, awake, and by that time still had not made his bed by 10:00 am which I believe was the approximate time of the phone call.

This now brings into question for me whether Bob Harrod truly made his bed every morning immediately. To play devil's advocate, I actually know people that ONLY make their bed the day/s the cleaning service is suppose to come.


Maybe the fact that she came on a Monday threw Mr. Harrod off his schedule, rather than the other way around! Something here does not make sense!!

Does this not raise questions for the rest here?

You're right, it could be misleading. It all depends on what was normal for Bob, doesn't it?

I didn't think it was odd because my own 84 year old father (within a week of age of Bob) makes his bed every morning. He gets up, showers, shaves, dresses, makes his bed. He's got a routine and he sticks to it. Doesn't matter if his cleaning lady is due or not, he always does the same thing every morning.

If my father was missing and his bed was not made, I would know that he had gone missing before 5:30 am, because he makes his bed about that time, plus or minus 5 minutes.

Was Bob an early bird or was he more of an owl? Would he have been just getting up or would he be almost ready for lunch at that time?

I'm hoping that Fontelle may have some information about Bob's usual habits.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Is there any reason to assume that the "family" would poison a lady they barely knew? Fontelle had not even seen Bob in a great many years, yet they married very quickly.

If this was my father would it raise my eyebrows? You bet it would!! I would be checking into her and her family quickly. Then my questions would start as I would assume that as his wife, she would receive his pension money. When I state that NO ONE gets a free pass from me I mean it. There are some colourful individuals peripherally that I believe deserve to be scrutinized deeper.

Not only has it been alluded that AH has committed mortgage fraud, now it is being alluded that the family might poison Fontelle? I feel like I am in the Twilight zone here. You guys must be joking right? If one is not joking is there anything that someone can point me in the direction that this poisoning theory has any merit to it?

Call me confused!

There is no poisoning theory since it has not happened yet. And, as I said in my post, it may be that I am just a paranoid nutjob.

The basis of my paranoia is that Bob, the father and grandfather of a group of people who had depended on him for substantial financial help in the past felt he had to give his daughters $15K each to stay away from him for 6 months. That doesn't speak to a close and loving relationship.

Those daughters have published truly horrible things about their father since Bob disappeared.

They appear to be looting his estate.

They have repeatedly made allegations about the woman who cut his hair... who is the only person cleared by the Placentia Police Department. Their civil suit against her to recover money they described as a loan ended up as a farce, when the judge ruled they had not proven one single element against her.

Meanwhile, AH, a grandson, is allowed to walk away from a $700+K debt to his grandfather with the co-conservators' cooperation.

The only person who appears to be trying to do anything to find Bob is Fontelle, his wife.

And now the co-conservators, who are supposed to be acting as if Bob were still alive, are going to court to force Fontelle to pay rent? Since when do husbands normally charge their wives rent?

Tangential note: if my widower father found someone he loved as much as Bob loved Fontelle, I would be the first person to say "don't waste time, get married and enjoy a long, wonderful honeymoon!"

I sincerely hope my father spends all his money and dies in his sleep 40 years from now after eating his favourite dessert.

He raised me, he supported me, it's time for me to give back. I don't post notes critical of his choices in frozen dinners to the internet; I make my dad's favourite foods and freeze them in serving size portions for him.

When my niece, who is disabled, had a hissy fit and left her mom's house, I took her in for a year and spent that time working with her to help her grow up some (at 22, she has the emotional development of a 12 year old according to her psychologist) and to mend relationships with her family. The last thing on my mind was charging her parents rent. But when JuM and her family had to evacuate due to wildfires, her sister charged her rent.

There is something wrong, all right. I think we differ on where that something wrong may be located.

Or, as I said, I may be a paranoid nutjob.

 

[Montjoy]

My question truly was very simple.

If Bob Harrod ALWAYS made his bed immediatly, why had it not been made by 10:00 am when the phone call that is acceptable to all involved as it came from outside of the family?

Just to be sure -- was the 10 AM call from a family or non-family member? My impression that it was the former, and if my memory is correct, it was a very odd phone call to say the least. (Someone please correct me -- I believe that call was from PaB -- I believe that it was PaB supposedly talking to Bob, during which he had a brief interaction with his SIL JeM regarding a trip to the store.) One of the early witness statements had some sort of euphemism in which one of the participants reportedly (from PaB) "gave a positive (or was it favorable?) response". Those sorts of vagaries are, need I say, textbook instances of red flag responses. Nobody speaks in the way Bob was reported as having spoken. That to me says, imo, there is a story being woven or presented.

It hurts so much to write here, and on this subject.

I've never stopped reading from all possible sides on this case. Of living witnesses, I really trust Bob's housekeeper. I would beg that she is not sleuthed, but I would submit that all who have met her or seen her clip on the forthcoming TV episode will know that she is 'good people'.

I read here as often as I can, and it is always such a comfort that Bob has some good friends.

In short, I do think that the unmade bed is a significant timeline issue, and I think that those who are locked into statements regarding conversations with Bob after the time he typically made his bed should probably consult lawyers asap, especially if they hope to inherit money and avoid prison.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Just to be sure -- was the 10 AM call from a family or non-family member? My impression that it was the former, and if my memory is correct, it was a very odd phone call to say the least. (Someone please correct me -- I believe that call was from PaB -- I believe that it was PaB supposedly talking to Bob, during which he had a brief interaction with his SIL JeM regarding a trip to the store.) One of the early witness statements had some sort of euphemism in which one of the participants reportedly (from PaB) "gave a positive (or was it favorable?) response". Those sorts of vagaries are, need I say, textbook instances of red flag responses. Nobody speaks in the way Bob was reported as having spoken. That to me says, imo, there is a story being woven or presented.

It hurts so much to write here, and on this subject.

I've never stopped reading from all possible sides on this case. Of living witnesses, I really trust Bob's housekeeper. I would beg that she is not sleuthed, but I would submit that all who have met her or seen her clip on the forthcoming TV episode will know that she is 'good people'.

I read here as often as I can, and it is always such a comfort that Bob has some good friends.

In short, I do think that the unmade bed is a significant timeline issue, and I think that those who are locked into statements regarding conversations with Bob after the time he typically made his bed should probably consult lawyers asap, especially if they hope to inherit money and avoid prison.

Montjoy, respectfully, I think you are mistaken on the 10 am phone call. As I recall, it was characterised by LE as a non-family member who called.

There was a later phone call from one of Bob's daughters which has all the red flags you pointed out.

For purposes of timeline, however, the 10 am phone call was the last time someone unrelated to Bob had contact with him.

I see no reason for Bob's housekeeper to lie about what was typical for her visits, the time she arrived or what happened while she was there.

 

[Cubby]

Here is what I was able to find online regarding the telephone calls alleged to have occured the morning of Bob's disappearance.

It appears daughter PaB (Bob's eldest daughter) entered the information for his NamUs profile. here is what she said about the time she allegedly spoke with Bob that morning.

He was at home and seemed in good spirits when I last spoke to him somewhere between 11 a.m. - 12pm.

https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/case_report_html/2706

https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/2706


I'm not able to find the info about the 10 am phone call to determine if LE said whether it was a family or non family member. I'll keep looking for the MSM info regarding the 10 am telephone call.

 

[cloudajo]

Here is additional info on the phone calls. We know the housekeeper called Bob that morning, but we don't know what time. If we go by what Agnes said in the Disappeared clip, she called and spoke to Bob before Jeff arrived. The 10AM call was a comment posted by the reporter/writer of the OC Register article under the article and all comments have since been removed. It was speculation only at one point that the 10AM call was the housekeeper. I'm personallly not sure of the accuracy of any of the calls/timeline at this point.

• Morning - Time Unknown – “Bob Harrod talked to the housekeeper on the phone earlier that morning and told her to come.” (Ref OC Register article) Narrator: “[snipped] Normally, she cleans Bob’s house on Tuesday, but this week she’d arranged to come on Monday.” Agnes: “And he said that will be fine, I will be here, and Jeff is coming and he’s gonna to take care of a couple of things in the house before Fontelle comes.” (Ref transcribed from ID Disappeared clip – clip since removed from website)

• 9:30AM – “About 9:30 a.m., Bob's son-in-law Jeff Michaels arrived to help get the house ready.” (Ref LA Times article)

• 10:00AM – “Officials have said that at 10 a.m. July 27 there was a phone call to Bob Harrod, which is the last time anyone other than Jeff Michaels verified he was at the house. Police are not releasing the content of those phone records.” (Ref comment posted by reporter/writer of OC Register article under the article. All comments have since been removed from website.)

• ~11:00AM – “Fontelle said on 07-27-2009 at approximately 2100 hours (Pacific time) she was contacted by her daughter in law, Julie Michaels, who told her that Fontelle’s husband (Julie’s father), Robert Harrod, had not been seen since approximately 1100 hours on 07-27-009. Fontelle said Julie told her that Julie’s husband, Jeffrey Michaels, had been at Robert and Fontelle’s home (522 Carnation) on 07-27-2009 at approximately 1100 hours.” (Ref Missing Persons Report)

• ~11:00AM-12:00PM – ‘I called my dad that morning by telephone, he had obviously been getting quite a few phone calls that morning. Then I realized that my BIL was there and I DID hear him say he was going to the "hardware store". My dad responded to him in a favorable way. I told my dad that I would let him go and talk to him later. That was the last time that I spoke to him. Times vary as I could not tell you the exact time that I called Dad, I gave an approximate of sometime between 11 and 12 and found later it was probably after 11:30 a.m.’ (Ref PB post on another forum)

• ? - ~11:45AM – “The police have not revealed the phone records but each of my sisters said called Dad early that day, the latest of their two calls was around 11:45, as that call was completed just before noon. Dad gave my sister the impression that he had received a number of calls that morning but, I know Dad did not usually like talking on the phone and would often "rush" callers off. He always acted like he preferred to be left alone, that the telephone was just a bother. Dad had an answering machine but wouldn't turn it on, so .......” (Ref RB post on another forum)

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/feb/02/local/la-me-disappeared3-2010feb03/2
[url="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7877873&postcount=73"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7877873&postcount=73[/url]
http://www2.ocregister.com/articles/harrod-bob-police-2598739-fontelle-michaels?orderby=TimeStampAscending&oncommentsPage=2&showRecommendedOnly=0#slComments
[url="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6994844&postcount=3"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6994844&postcount=3[/url]

 

[believe09]

I think it has always been intentionally characterized at prior to/around 10AM. Thanks cloud for digging all of that stuff up.

When you are feeling better Allusonz, and ((hugs)) that you are under the weather, take a moment to look at the OC requirements regarding jumbo loans. Cubby has been an excellent guide through this process which I am completely unfamiliar with. The financing of a house in that amount with virtually no down payment has to raise eyebrows at this particular time in the real estate market.

It has to.

I was totally willing to believe that he had met the downpayment requirement. I was floored to see that roughly 14K got him that house. ByPassing the jumbo loan requirements for OC. From this point going forward my questions have been directed towards what loan program is available that allows you to bypass the 20% down payment and the documentation of a clear consistent mortgage payment history showing that he was a good risk for a 700+K house.

I think this is a reasonable line of questioning, frankly. This is the disappearance and possible murder of his grandfather, and so far he has been the only one with a tremendous financial benefit as a result of his grandfather's disappearance.

We cannot forget the both he and his aunt testified that AH believed his debt was to be forgiven upon the death of Bob. We can see that the co conservators predicated their secret agreement with him based upon the belief that it would a protracted and costly fight to get him out of Windflower and to get him to pony up the past due and current.

If there was no documentation of the forgiveness, the logic of this strikes me as some fuzzy math given that they went to the mat over 65K they claimed BL borrowed from Bob, and there was no documentation there either.

I am not accusing Andrew of killing his GF-nope. I think he has benefited the most from Bob's disappearance and I think that the numbers show that clearly. JMVHO.

 

[believe09]

I mean, clearly there is something bullet proof regarding the transaction-there are sworn documents in play here that state clearly that Andrew was substantially past due on the mortgage on Windflower, and that the reason he wasnt held accountable was because 1.) there was an undocumented statement of forgiveness upon the death of Bob and 2.) It would be too expensive to pursue him for the 735K he owed.

*shrug*

 

[shefner]

I must say that if LE is not reading here, they need to do so. You guys that have followed this case from the start are extremely knowledgable and do a great job explaining the facts of this case. You also have a big heart for Bob and Fontelle....as well as a deep desire for the truth. That's a wonderful combination!

I jumped in the game late...and many of you have helped me to understand and catch up. I just wanted to thank you for all you do and I wanted to add that Bob is still on my heart and mind. I pray that the events of that fateful day will eventually be revealed and we can know what happened to Bob.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I mean, clearly there is something bullet proof regarding the transaction-there are sworn documents in play here that state clearly that Andrew was substantially past due on the mortgage on Windflower, and that the reason he wasnt held accountable was because 1.) there was an undocumented statement of forgiveness upon the death of Bob and 2.) It would be too expensive to pursue him for the 735K he owed.

*shrug*

And yet they went to court against the woman who cut Bob's hair for something like $65K? Their argument in that case had no supporting documentation, as I recall and the judge's opinion was one of the most restrainedly scathing I've ever read.

I just don't understand it at all.

 

[Cubby]

I'm still unclear on the 14K and exactly what it was for. More than the down payment, or lack of, I'm really wondering how he qualified for any loan -whether it be a 200K loan or a 700K loan. He doesn't seem to meet the common underwriting quidelines for any mortgage with his payment history.

I'm not an underwriter.... I sure wish someone who works for a lender would hop in here. They might be able to offer a little more insight than I can. Though, I am happy to help with the bit I do understand having formely been a licensed realtor.

Here is a little more I found on jumbo loans:

Since it's either high net worth clients, or private investors that seek jumbo and super jumbo financing the underwriting criteria as credit score and history are applied differently. On the whole, residential jumbo mortgage lenders and commercial super jumbo loan lenders will have differing underwriting criteria. Mainly, assets and income sources will be considered when evaluating a jumbo loan application.

http://www.mortgageqna.com/mortgage-loan-types/what-is-a-jumbo-mortgage-loan.html

So, if the mortgage co believed AH has a high net worth how would they do that if his grandfathers assets were not somehow included in that calculation? And, if he has a high net worth why couldn't the co-conservators (who are supposed to be acting in Mr. Harrods best interest) recover the hundreds of thousands owed to Bob by his grandson?

 

[cloudajo]

Here are some updates from the court records for the trust proceedings. What it means exactly, I don't know.

Case Number: 30-2009-00297798-PR-TR-LJC
Title: HARROD - TRUST

Hearings:

• 12/05/2012 – Court Trial
• 11/14/2012 – Trust Petition
• 10/18/2012 – Motion – Other
• 09/19/2012 – Trust Petition
• 09/17/2012 – Trial Setting Conference

Register of Actions:

• 09/19/2012 - MINUTES FINALIZED FOR (P) TRUST PETITION 09/19/2012 09:00:00 AM.
• 09/19/2012 - (P) TRUST PETITION CONTINUED TO 11/14/2012 AT 09:00 AM IN THIS DEPARTMENT.
• 09/19/2012 - (P) TRUST PETITION SCHEDULED FOR 11/14/2012 AT 09:00:00 AM IN L73 AT LAMOREAUX JUSTICE CENTER.
• 09/18/2012 - E-FILING TRANSACTION 2144020 RECEIVED ON 09/18/2012 10:18:42 AM.
• 09/18/2012 - NOTICE OF HEARING WITH PROOF OF MAILING FILED BY BORCHER, PAULA S.; BRADY, ROBERTA D. ON 09/18/2012
• 09/17/2012 - JOINT CASE MANAGEMENT STATEMENT FILED BY BORCHER, PAULA S.; BRADY, ROBERTA D. ON 09/17/2012
• 09/17/2012 - THE (P) COURT TRIAL IS SCHEDULED FOR 12/05/2012 AT 09:00 AM IN DEPARTMENT L72.
• 09/20/2012 - MINUTES FINALIZED FOR (P) TRIAL SETTING CONFERENCE 09/17/2012 01:30:00 PM.

https://ocapps.occourts.org/ProbPubv2/Home.do