CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #10

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  • #941
So, even if you had searched under Trusts and nothing had come up, it might still be hidden in a civil document listed but you wouldn't necessarily know? You would have to obtain them all......sigh


It's just a guess, but I've wondered if it might be with Georgia's will. It would be interesting to see exactly what those wishes were.

I posted the link indicating GH's will was filed, iirc, in May of 2008. Will try and find it again. I can't get into the OC online link at this time.
 
  • #942
  • #943
respectfully snipped to point

As this is Fontelle's residence, I believe she could give consent for such a search without having to consult the conservators for permission.

I believe you are mistaken. The house is an asset of the Harrod Family Trust.

~jmo~
 
  • #944
It's just a guess, but I've wondered if it might be with Georgia's will. It would be interesting to see exactly what those wishes were.

I posted the link indicating GH's will was filed, iirc, in May of 2008. Will try and find it again. I can't get into the OC online link at this time.

The court docs as you bumped do NOT say a Declaration of Trust is there.

As well, to repeat <mod snip>:

Wills can be public; Trusts are not.

But please, prove me wrong and setup a paypal acct (as suggested upthreadS) or ask the member who posted she has seen the docs to upload them.

Fair enough?

<mod snip>

~jmo~
 
  • #945
Let's also address the issue of a Proposed form of order:

A proposed order is a preliminary form of a written order that one lawyer prepares to put in writing an oral decision by a judge.

One-sided docs and those without an official stamp of the court as Filed mean nothing more than 2 sides arguing.

Some docs uploaded here are not official court docs, nor do they tell the whole story from both sides.

Why is that?

~jmo~
 
  • #946
respectfully snipped to point



I believe you are mistaken. The house is an asset of the Harrod Family Trust.

~jmo~

I was thinking the closest analog situation would be tenancy. The law is quite clear there, that a tenant can give consent for the residence they are living in to be searched without the owner's consent.

This situation is not completely the same but I believe the principle would probably be the same: someone can give consent for their residence to be searched even if they do not own the residence.
 
  • #947
I was thinking the closest analog situation would be tenancy. The law is quite clear there, that a tenant can give consent for the residence they are living in to be searched without the owner's consent.

This situation is not completely the same but I believe the principle would probably be the same: someone can give consent for their residence to be searched even if they do not own the residence.

Fair enough. Can you find/cite the applicable law? tia

btw, Fontelle is reportedly not at the Carnation Dr house for months at a time. Based on that, if true, I doubt LE would be asking her permission at all...and most especially NOT as well in this case where the dots and crosses on the letters count.

ETA: I can see how the law as you reference might apply to an immediate situation, but not to one that occurred 3+ yrs ago.

~jmo~
 
  • #948
Now I'm really interested in seeing what that receipt was for, and what the repairs were supposed to be. To see if the two match up.

I don't think the family at all expected F H to do anything but head straight back to MO. They told her she had no right to live in the house within days, I think. And they were wrong! That's the trouble with these private family trusts - can be hard to tell exactly how they work.....

BBM~~~~

Agree.
 
  • #949
And yet another thing - PPD carried out lie detector tests in Feb 2010 and didn't release results or who took them, because of the ongoing investigation. Fair enough. But now, in 2012-about-to-be-13-unlucky-for-some.....isn't it about time they released that info to rack up the pressure? Preferably to coincide with Bob's 'Disappeared' airing?

First snows have come early here - hoping for some heated debate to warm me up!

LE rarely releases them I think-their value is as an investigative tool. Typically, those who have taken them tend to make a pre emptive statement. For example, Tara Grinstead's BIL stated on Montel Williams that he had failed his miserably.

In Bob's case, the one person who brought it up has crickets chirping in her corner. Wonder why? You have to believe with the sheer volume and detail which has flooded the www by Bob's daughters, a pass would have been trumpeted loudly from IS to the other websites where they post. ;)
 
  • #950
Fair enough. Can you find/cite the applicable law? tia

btw, Fontelle is reportedly not at the Carnation Dr house for months at a time. Based on that, if true, I doubt LE would be asking her permission at all...and most especially NOT as well in this case where the dots and crosses on the letters count.

ETA: I can see how the law as you reference might apply to an immediate situation, but not to one that occurred 3+ yrs ago.

~jmo~

How do you know that Fontelle is not at the Carnation residence for months at a time, shana? This is a pretty intimate detail.

In any case, does it matter?? What if you lived in your marital residence and decided to go on a trip around the world-should someone be able to sell or rent the house out from under you? And whose business is it where Mrs Harrod comes and goes? Is someone keeping an eye on every other person who resides in a trust owned property? Give me a break.

This action is incredibly spiteful, mean spirited and malicious. Any judge will see it for what it is, and the girls are making it clear they are at war with their step mother. Rather than spending that money on finding their father.

They are not doing themselves any favors and their attorneys are having a field day-shortly the attorneys in this case will have benefited far more from Bob's money than even AH.

Maybe they disappeared Bob.
 
  • #951
The court docs as you bumped do NOT say a Declaration of Trust is there.

As well, to repeat like a big bump:

Wills can be public; Trusts are not.

But please, prove me wrong and setup a paypal acct (as suggested upthreadS) or ask the member who posted she has seen the docs to upload them.

Fair enough?

Set...go.

~jmo~

Can you direct me to that post Shana? Thanks!
 
  • #952
Fair enough. Can you find/cite the applicable law? tia

btw, Fontelle is reportedly not at the Carnation Dr house for months at a time. Based on that, if true, I doubt LE would be asking her permission at all...and most especially NOT as well in this case where the dots and crosses on the letters count.

ETA: I can see how the law as you reference might apply to an immediate situation, but not to one that occurred 3+ yrs ago.

~jmo~

Not sure why it is necessary to go off and search for applicable laws, or I would. As it is, the house has been forensically searched once, so evidentally whoever was required to give permission, gave it. I can't imagine anyone wanting to find Bob would stand in the way of further attempts to find evidence of what happened to him.

I don't see the relevance at all of where FH chooses to spend her time. I can't imagine her rights to live in her husband's house come with a caveat that she has to do so in splendid isolation and never visit her family who live far away. If her husband was there as he should have been, she wouldn't need so much support from her family, poor lady.
 
  • #953
BBM

LE rarely releases them I think-their value is as an investigative tool. Typically, those who have taken them tend to make a pre emptive statement. For example, Tara Grinstead's BIL stated on Montel Williams that he had failed his miserably.

In Bob's case, the one person who brought it up has crickets chirping in her corner. Wonder why? You have to believe with the sheer volume and detail which has flooded the www by Bob's daughters, a pass would have been trumpeted loudly from IS to the other websites where they post. ;)

Agreed. They should be proud to boast that they have done everything they can do help bring their father home.
 
  • #954
Fair enough. Can you find/cite the applicable law? tia

btw, Fontelle is reportedly not at the Carnation Dr house for months at a time. Based on that, if true, I doubt LE would be asking her permission at all...and most especially NOT as well in this case where the dots and crosses on the letters count.

ETA: I can see how the law as you reference might apply to an immediate situation, but not to one that occurred 3+ yrs ago.

~jmo~

I am not a lawyer or an expert of any sort.

The grounds for my speculation as to who could give consent to Bob's home being searched are based on my own experience as a property manager and on reading various sites on constitutional rights.

For instance, the following is talking about a co-tenancy situation but touches on a situation where one person who is present consents to a search while someone who is not present does not consent:

Miller: Yes sir, it does. I‘d like to add one final note here. And that is, what happens here if a consenting party is present and a potentially non-consenting party is absent? Do you have to go and find and ask the potentially non-consenting party before you can go inside? And, the Supreme Court here said “no,” so as long as there is no evidence that the police physically removed a potentially objecting party from the home for the sake of avoiding the objection. Then, the consent from one party should be sufficient.

http://www.fletc.gov/training/progr...can-consent-to-search-podcast-transcript.html

The following defines who has the right to consent to a search:

When consent is obtained through the deception of an undercover officer or an informer gaining admission without, of course, advising a suspect who he is, the Court has held that the suspect has simply assumed the risk that an invitee would betray him, and evidence obtained through the deception is admissible.

Additional issues arise in determining the validity of consent to search when consent is given not by the suspect but by a third party. In the earlier cases, third party consent was deemed sufficient if that party ''possessed common authority over or other sufficient relationship to the premises or effects sought to be inspected.'' 85 Now, however, actual common authority over the premises is no longer required; it is enough if the searching officer had a reasonable but mistaken belief that the third party had common authority and could consent to the search.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment04/04.html

What I take from those sources is that the number of days per year spent on the premises doesn't really matter. What matters is that one person who would have a reasonable expectation of privacy and is in a position of authority over the premises gives consent.

Clearly Fontelle has some level of authority over the premises; the co-conservators could not, for example, choose to rent the house to someone else without Fontelle's consent or without a court order setting aside Fontelle's consent.

Fontelle also has an expectation to privacy in that house. She can, for instance, bathe there with the assumption that her bath will not be viewed by others.

Because Fontelle is living there, whoever might have a reason not to want the premises searched via HRD is assuming the risk that she will consent to a search.

As for the time in history that might be of interest in a search, I don't think that is relevant. A search is a search and if someone in a position to do so gives consent to a search, they're not just consenting to a search of the condition of the property as it exists in that moment in time. They are consenting to a search that may reveal evidence of a crime that happened 3 minutes ago, 3 hours ago, 3 weeks ago or 3 years ago.

Again, I am not a lawyer and I have no doubt that in this case, where the various factions are represented by actual lawyers, whoever was involved would consult their own lawyer.

It is merely my opinion that Fontelle, as the person who is living in the house and has a reasonable expectation of privacy while living there, is someone who can waive the fourth amendment right concerning searches.
 
  • #955
How do you know that Fontelle is not at the Carnation residence for months at a time, shana? This is a pretty intimate detail.

In any case, does it matter?? What if you lived in your marital residence and decided to go on a trip around the world-should someone be able to sell or rent the house out from under you? And whose business is it where Mrs Harrod comes and goes? Is someone keeping an eye on every other person who resides in a trust owned property? Give me a break.

This action is incredibly spiteful, mean spirited and malicious. Any judge will see it for what it is, and the girls are making it clear they are at war with their step mother. Rather than spending that money on finding their father.

They are not doing themselves any favors and their attorneys are having a field day-shortly the attorneys in this case will have benefited far more from Bob's money than even AH.

Maybe they disappeared Bob.

BBM

I agree with your post and wish I had read it before I replied.

As to the bolded part, if someone was travelling for an extended period of time and chose to rent their house to a tenant, who then discovered the basement grow operation, I doubt anyone would question whether the tenant could report the situation to the police and, in effect, give consent to the police for a search, even though the grow operation took place in the past.

I think Zweibel was right. Whoever disappeared Bob expected that Fontelle would just go back to Missouri and forget all about her marriage. Personally, had she done so, I would not criticise her. I think there must be times when it is pretty scary living in that house, knowing that police do not think it was a robbery gone wrong or a stranger abduction.

As she has decided to fight for Bob, I can only admire her spirit and sorrow that she did not have the chance to enjoy the rest of the story.
 
  • #956
Not sure why it is necessary to go off and search for applicable laws, or I would. As it is, the house has been forensically searched once, so evidentally whoever was required to give permission, gave it. I can't imagine anyone wanting to find Bob would stand in the way of further attempts to find evidence of what happened to him.

I don't see the relevance at all of where FH chooses to spend her time. I can't imagine her rights to live in her husband's house come with a caveat that she has to do so in splendid isolation and never visit her family who live far away. If her husband was there as he should have been, she wouldn't need so much support from her family, poor lady.

Particularly since CA Exile (I think) mentioned that Fontelle does not have good eyesight, cannot drive and does not use a computer.
 
  • #957
Particularly since CA Exile (I think) mentioned that Fontelle does not have good eyesight, cannot drive and does not use a computer.

Well. What a brave lady. What a good choice Bob made, and what a great pity he didn't get a chance to enjoy a future with his wife.
 
  • #958
Wills can be public; Trusts are not.



~jmo~

The trust doc hasnt been entered into the court file? How will those poor judges rule if they have no frame of reference?
 
  • #959
Mrs Harrod can give, and apparently has given in the past, consent to search her home. lol...now we are truly distracted imo.

I admire Mrs Harrod and I :bow: to CA Exile who provided some important insight, and who also has been steadfast in his desire to have his friend recovered.

For me, it is hard to decide if this crime has it's origin in the past or if the perfect storm post Georgia's death was the trigger. Maybe both.

If it hadnt been for that 10 AM phone call, I would have believed that Bob's disappearance occurred much earlier.

So were JeM and CL in the house when Bob disappeared, per JuM timeline? And when did JeM see that phantom SUV? I wish the MP report had more information regarding that event. Note that AH did not mention the SUV during the well being check-he just pointed the finger at the family fighting. At least a sworn officer captured that statement in his report.

But JeM saw Bob at 130PM right? Or not. That has to be a bit of bad reporting surely-again, we are looking at in and out, in and out if that were true...and CL was in the house cleaning at that time, so it makes no sense whatsoever.

Maybe JeM, if given the chance, would change his last seen time to 1130 or so. Oh nope, because we have PB's unverified phone call to deal with, just after 1130am. SIL was giving a favorable response or Bob was? I cant remember.

Apparently SIL last saw Bob with a white hat on, a point raised by suzyq.

Clear as mud-except the motivation for Bob's disappearance imo.
 
  • #960
Maybe we can ask Steely Dan to create a poll for us on when everyone believes Bob was last seen? We can make it available to the public....
 
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