CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #12

[Oriah]

JeM's receipt may check out but that doesn't mean all his time is accounted for. It's quite possible there is a window of time JeM can not account for. The morning, imo, and where he arrived from around noon when he found the cleaning lady waiting outside Bob's door.

Let's not forget, it is only about 14 hours after Bob is reported missing that JuM posts on her community forum that foul play is expected. How did JuM know so much sooner than LE?

I guess that's kind of where I was going, Cubby. Thank you for being more clear about that!
Receipts don't usually print names, except for last names with certain cc contracts like Amex or whatever and even then, the name on the card is usually first initial and last name. So is it possible it was a credit/debit card that could have been shared with a family member or whoever?

 

[Cubby]

I'm going to guess that the 3:04 pm receipt and survelliance showed JeM at HD in the afternoon. In one of the MSM articles, LE stated they would be reviewing survelliance to see if people were where they said they were.


To me, the 3:04 receipt only means JeM left for the HD an hour or two after the CL arrived.

When thinking about this timeline being all over the place, I keep going back to D'Andre Lane (convicted murderer in a no body case) story to LE. He even went for a ride with LE or the FBI and his attorney to take them along the route he drove the morning his daughter was allegedly abducted by car jackers. There was still a 45 minute window that remained unaccounted for.

I do not for a second believe that JeM accounted for ALL of his time the day Bob disappeared. Where was he between 9-10:00am and the noonish time the CL arrived?

The CL has nothing to gain by lying, JeM does. He was the last person to see Bob alive and he, his wife and his sister in laws are hesitant to provide details on what repairs where done in the home. If it looks like a duck......

 

[mikkismom]

On a positive note, we now have one confirmed time! At 3:04pm, JeM was at Home Depot! The one thing in this case we know for sure. :rocker:

jmo, of course

 

[Oriah]

On a positive note, we now have one confirmed time! At 3:04pm, JeM was at Home Depot! The one thing in this case we know for sure. :rocker:

jmo, of course

I am with you in happiness, mikkismom!

Let's say the 3:04pm is accurate. What was JeM carrying in or out of HD at that time? Checkouts are by the doors, the cameras are in specific locations. Whether the receipt shows what he purchased or not, the cctv would indicate if it was a large or small item, large or small bag, possibly even a shape of something inside?

 

[believe09]

OK-we have two times. AH was at Carnation Drive during the well being check that evening.

Cause for celebration!

So let's throw out everything else, except we may have another marker which is the 10AM or so phone call.

The source must have been an impeachable one. Any chance Bob's attorney returned a phone call from a message Bob might have left the night before after the meeting disbursed?

 

[zwiebel]

I did three family meeting/reconvened scenarios. They took ages but I deleted one and a half because I could not make a JeM staying the night scenario work.

Unless JuM and JeM arrived in separate cars, how did JuM get home if JeM stayed the night at AH's? And why would they have arrived in separate cars? Unless she took the dogs to the meeting with her, Jum would have gone back to them. For sure.

If she took the car, would anyone really have let JeM drive theirs the next day?
* * * * * * * * * ******************************************
1.
2/3-5pm. At the end of the family meeting, I think AH might have driven Bob home. And Bob confided in his only grandson how mad he still was with his dad and with PB. Maybe a few other things too. We all tend to unload on those we trust.

5.15pm. AH returns to his house where you can imagine this awaited him: one person is simmering with resentment. One person has lost their temper. One person is veering between sweetness and spite. Another is distracted. The last person is occupied with childcare. AH spills the beans.

5.15. A line in the sand is drawn.

5.30pm. The distracted person leaves to write the strongly-worded letter they have just composed in their head.

6pm. JuM, JeM and PB head for home. They all stop for a cup of tea at PB's and the family meeting reconvenes there. There is a long discussion, perhaps more specific than the previous one. Or, if the dogs have been left behind on their own, a very short discussion. Shared storage facilities may be mentioned.

7/8pm (depending on dog care) JuM and JeM leave, PB calls RB.

8.30/9.30 - 2am (including two hour period for dog related tasks). JeM and JuM continue their discussion until the early hours. Neither gets much sleep. JeM turns in first. He has work that has to be done, early in the morning.
* * * *
2.*
This last is simpler:

Late afternoon: After Bob leaves the meeting, a long and detailed discussion takes place amongst family members, and a plan is decided and agreed amongst all of them, about exactly how they are going to deal with Dad. They all return to their respective homes that night.

 

[zwiebel]

On a positive note, we now have one confirmed time! At 3:04pm, JeM was at Home Depot! The one thing in this case we know for sure. :rocker:

jmo, of course

That's good but......I wonder if an alibi will ever surface about how, when JeM returned to Bob's after three and found the CL gone, he also found Bob had returned from wherever he had been. And he was there at 6pm, when JeM left. Must have disappeared at night, in fact. When JeM and the rest of the family were all safe at home.

 

[zwiebel]

Just thought it was worth mentioning, something I read a couple of days ago. Estate lawyers don't recommend a spouse leaving everything in a trust for the surviving spouse to inherit. Leads to tax bills when that spouse dies.

They say it's best for a couple with say, five million, to have the wife leave a million in a separate trust, to be dispersed upon her death, while 4 million stays in the main trust. When the husband dies too, the estate's still below the tax threshold.

Maybe when GH died, her daughters were under the impression a large amount of money like that was about to be handed out? Hence their frustration with Dad for not coming up with the cash. I always thought they deliberately underestimated their Dad's fortune, but maybe the problem was, they'd overestimated? GH had no need to put a million in a separate trust because her and Bob's fortune was well under the threshold anyway?

 

[GrainneDhu]

OK-what if we look at a scenario where JeM stays at Bob's house? Or Andrew's? He could have been out buying donuts when CL called. Or he was, maybe, at his son's house to save himself the arduous drive dth in traffic during rush hour to get to Bob's house at 930am the next day.

I think it is much more likely that JeM stayed with his son and grandchildren.

And do we have any independent evidence that Bob requested repairs or knew JeM was planning to come over to do repairs on Monday? Considering Bob's history of paying his offspring to stay away from him, I have always thought it was a little odd that right after a big family fight, he had JeM come over to do odd jobs.

 

[suzyq211]

I think it is much more likely that JeM stayed with his son and grandchildren.

And do we have any independent evidence that Bob requested repairs or knew JeM was planning to come over to do repairs on Monday? Considering Bob's history of paying his offspring to stay away from him, I have always thought it was a little odd that right after a big family fight, he had JeM come over to do odd jobs.

I used to wonder if JeM surprised Bob that morning, but then:

Agnes: And he said that will be fine, I will be here, and Jeff is coming and he’s gonna to take care of a couple of things in the house before Fontelle comes. So I went to the house, knocked on the door, nobody answered, I looked in the mailbox because that’s where he normally leaves me the key, the key wasn’t there, so I sat on the bench in front of the house. (Disappeared clip)

I guess Bob knew beforehand.

 

[cloudajo]

This will really make your heads spin.

July 25, 2009 (Saturday)
Time? - Bob was last seen by a neighbor or neighbors

July 26, 2009 (Sunday)
Time? – Paula, Roberta, Julie went to Bob’s house in Placentia
o The day before he disappeared, his daughters -- Paula Borcher, Roberta Brady and Julie Michaels -- went to his home in Placentia. The four argued about money, police say. According to Fontelle, Bob said his daughters became upset when he told them he planned to include his new wife in the estate. According to court filings, his daughters estimated Bob had property and savings worth at least $1 million. (Ref LA Times article)
o Paula: “There was a family meeting on Sunday, it was heated at times, there were NO threats and we all left on good terms.” (Ref Paula’s post on IS forum)
o Roberta: She said her father lost his temper. She said he had failed to provide copies of their mother's will, which he was obligated to do because of the financial mechanisms set up by the estate. "It wasn't a heated meeting," she said in a phone interview. "Dad got heated. He's very selfish, very conditional. The day before he went missing in the afternoon, he was going to provide us copies of the will, and we went over to get the copies. He didn't have them." (Ref OC Register article)
2:00PM – According to RB’s post on IS, they left Bob’s house at this time
Evening - Fontelle last spoke to Bob by phone while she was in MO
~8:00PM – Sunset in CA

July 27, 2009 (Monday)
Weather: Low temp: 68.5 F, high temp: 91.4 F, avg: 78.2 F; precipitation: 0.0
~6:00AM – Sunrise in CA
Time? – Jeff went to CVS pharmacy (ref Sep 2009 email from PPD to Dreamweaver). Note that it’s been rumored it was in the morning, it was Rite Aid and not CVS, and Jeff bought soda, paper plates, donuts.
AM/Time? – Bob’s housekeeper Agnes called Bob. Her regular schedule was to clean every other Tuesday, however, she asked Bob if she could clean that Monday instead. Agnes: “And he said that will be fine, I will be here, and Jeff is coming and he’s gonna to take care of a couple of things in the house before Fontelle comes.” (ref Disappeared clip)
9:30AM – Jeff arrived at Bob’s house (Ref LA Times article)
10:00AM – Per officials, there was a phone call to Bob, which is the last time anyone other than Jeff verified he was at the house. (Ref: This was a comment posted by the reporter/writer of article under the actual article)
~10:00AM – Per Julie’s July 28 post on ROTW, this is the approximate time Bob went missing (Julie posted on July 28 at 1:50PM that her father had been missing for approximately 28 hours, which would have been ~10:00AM on Mon)
Time? – Per RB’s Sep 2010 post (see below), in addition to Paula’s call to Bob, Julie called Bob as well.
~11:00AM – According to what Julie told Fontelle, Bob was last seen by Jeff at this time (Ref Missing Persons Report)
11:30AM-12:00 – Paula posted ‘I called my dad that morning by telephone, he had obviously been getting quite a few phone calls that morning. Then I realized that my BIL was there and I DID hear him say he was going to the "hardware store". My dad responded to him in a favorable way. I told my dad that I would let him go and talk to him later. That was the last time that I spoke to him. Times vary as I could not tell you the exact time that I called Dad, I gave an approximate of sometime between 11 and 12 and found later it was probably after 11:30 a.m.’ (Ref post by Paula on IS forum)
11:45AM-Noon – According to Roberta, “The police have not revealed the phone records but each of my sisters said called Dad early that day, the latest of their two calls was around 11:45, as that call was completed just before noon. Dad gave my sister the impression that he had received a number of calls that morning but, I know Dad did not usually like talking on the phone and would often "rush" callers off. He always acted like he preferred to be left alone, that the telephone was just a bother. Dad had an answering machine but wouldn't turn it on, so .......” (Ref Sep 30, 2010 post by RB on another forum)
Noon – According to the Narrator on Disappeared, this is the time Bob’s housekeeper arrived at Bob’s house (Narrator: But Jeff was not the only person at Bob’s house that day. Agnes, Bob’s housekeeper of more than 10 years, arrived around Noon.)
12:15PM – If going by the Disappeared clip, Jeff would have arrived back at Bob’s at this time. (Narrator: After about 15 minutes, Jeff drove up to the house.)
~2:40PM – Jeff left Bob’s house and went to Home Depot (Ref OC Register and LA Times articles).
Shortly after 3:00PM – According to another forum, the PPD advised this is the time the housekeeper arrived at Bob’s house.
3:00PM – If going by the Disappeared Narrator stating the housekeeper arrived about Noon, and the housekeeper stating she was at Bob’s for about 3 hours, this would be the time the housekeeper left Bob’s house.
3:04PM – Jeff paid for purchases at Home Depot (time stamp of purchase receipt; Ref PPD). It has not been made public what the purchase was.
~3:30PM – Jeff arrived back at Bob’s house from Home Depot (according to the LA Times article, Michaels told police that he worked at the home, then went to Home Depot about 2:40 p.m. to buy supplies. When he returned about 3:30 p.m., Bob's housekeeper was sitting on the front stoop because no one had answered the door. Michaels let himself in the back door and the housekeeper followed and cleaned.)
6:00PM? – If going by the info from the PPD and the LA Times article, if the housekeeper arrived at about 3PM and stayed for about 3 hours, she would have left Bob’s house at this time
6:00PM – Jeff left Bob’s house (according to the LA Times article: Michaels left about 6 p.m.)
7:15PM? – Jeff arrived home in Running Springs (according to the OC Register article: Michaels locked the house and headed home to Running Springs outside San Bernardino.)
~8:00PM – Fontelle called Bob’s house but he didn’t answer. She called him every 20 minutes until Julie later called to say her father was missing
Evening/Night – Julie called Bob’s house, and there was no answer. She called her sisters, Roberta and Paula
~9:00PM - Fontelle was contacted by Julie, who told her that Bob had not been seen since approximately 11:00AM (Ref Missing Persons Report)
~9:00-9:30PM – Roberta called Placentia Police to do a wellness/welfare check at Bob’s residence (Ref RB’s posts on other forums)
9:32PM – 2 officers from the PPD was dispatched to Bob’s house to conduct a welfare check (Ref MP Report)
Time? – 2 PPD officers arrived at Bob’s house (Note: It is about 1.3 mi / 5 min from the PPD to Bob’s house). They were met on the front driveway by Andrew. Andrew explained to the officers that he had a key to Bob’s house and wanted the officers to check the interior of the house with him. Andrew unlocked the door and he and the officers made entry. The PPD officers and Andrew checked the interior of the house (lower and upper levels), the backyard, and opened the door to the garage. Andrew stated nothing appeared out of the ordinary. Andrew stated that it was not like his grandfather to leave without telling anybody where he was going. Andrew continued and said there had been fighting in the family recently and Bob was very frustrated over the situation. Andrew said his grandfather probably left to get away from the family problems. He provided no further information. (Ref MP Report)
Time? – PPD left Bob’s house

July 28, 2009 (Tuesday)
12:22AM- Fontelle called the PPD from Missouri and filed a Missing Persons Report (Ref Missing Persons Report)
12:24PM – PPD was dispatched to Bob’s house (Ref Incident Log)
12:57PM – PPD arrived at Bob’s house (Ref Incident Log)
2:11AM – The call was cleared (Ref Incident Log)
Time? - Julie went to Bob’s house to “change the linens” (per daughter’s Aug 4th post on ROTW stating that before she went dth to get the house ready, linens changed for he and his wife; she started to call all the local hospitals, coroner’s office, etc.)
Time? - Julie gave an interview to a reporter in Bob’s house. She said her husband was with her dad at his home the day before, he went to the hardware store alone, and when he came back, her dad was gone. Asked what time, she replied “We’re thinking maybe 1, noon?” The reporter also quotes Julie as saying her father is showing signs of dementia.
1:50PM – Julie posts on ROTW that her father had been missing for approximately 28 hours (which would have been ~10:00AM on Mon)

July 29, 2009 (Wednesday)
12:30PM - Fontelle returned to Bob’s house in Placentia from MO with her daughter and dog (as previously scheduled). Roberta and Julie were at the house when they arrived. Paula had been there but left to go to her nephew’s house (Andrew) because of the news frenzy (Ref Post by Paula on IS forum)
Daytime - In response to being contacted by family before Bob went missing, an investigator from OC Social Services showed up at Bob’s house to conduct the second investigation into suspected elder financial abuse. Roberta posted that it was then the investigator found out that their investigation might have been "a day late and a dollar short". (Ref Roberta’s post on IS forum)
Nighttime - Detective Corinne Loomis spoke to Fontelle at length

 

[believe09]

Thank you cloudajo-I ran through your post several times and JuM has repeatedly put her husband in the house at the moment Bob disappeared, whether it be 10AM, 11AM. noon or 1PM.

 

[Oriah]

Thank you cloudajo-I ran through your post several times and JuM has repeatedly put her husband in the house at the moment Bob disappeared, whether it be 10AM, 11AM. noon or 1PM.

Yes.
One of the things I think we should be careful not to exclude is if it's possible anyone else was in the house as well. Or what sort of phone contact anyone else in the residence had outside of the Harrod's landline.

I mean, I call people all the time from inside residences on my cell phone- while the residence landline is either in use, or...not in use but I don't want to use it. Is it possible JeM made outgoing phone calls from his cell- or received incoming calls, possibly from a shared account- during the time frame we're talking about?

 

[zwiebel]

Everytime you post that timeline cloudajo, it begins to make more sense. Not the times themselves, of course, but the possible motives of the people who stated those different times.

That 3pm receipt never made sense as an alibi to me before, but now I am wondering if that was the first shoot (obviously nipped in the bud quickly) of yet another timeline. One where the last time JeM saw Bob was in the house with the cleaner, just before JeM left for Home Depot. It would have been her word against his. Chillingly calculating, if it was.

Anybody think it's possible one of those early am calls to Bob on the 27th was from JeM, announcing he was coming down to do those little repairs today? I haven't seen any mention from daughters of Bob asking JeM the night before at that non-heated/ fighting family meeting.

 

[zwiebel]

Yes.
One of the things I think we should be careful not to exclude is if it's possible anyone else was in the house as well. Or what sort of phone contact anyone else in the residence had outside of the Harrod's landline.

I mean, I call people all the time from inside residences on my cell phone- while the residence landline is either in use, or...not in use but I don't want to use it. Is it possible JeM made outgoing phone calls from his cell- or received incoming calls, possibly from a shared account- during the time frame we're talking about?

How long are phone pings traceable?

 

[zwiebel]

Just noticed that RB said JuM called Bob at an uknown time on the 27th. Maybe if was her who told Bob Jeff was coming down to sort out the problems?

 

[Oriah]

How long are phone pings traceable?

It depends on the phone company, the phone itself, and the tower transmission(s). Some keep records for a really long time, others dump them.

Maybe someone else knows this? are there records of cell phone usage from before, during and after the heated family meeting, of the family members in attendance? I have a hard time thinking no one called anyone- especially after detailing the morning Mr. Harrod disappeared via phone call. You know?

 

[believe09]

It depends on the phone company, the phone itself, and the tower transmission(s). Some keep records for a really long time, others dump them.

Maybe someone else knows this? are there records of cell phone usage from before, during and after the heated family meeting, of the family members in attendance? I have a hard time thinking no one called anyone- especially after detailing the morning Mr. Harrod disappeared via phone call. You know?

I have no proof, but I would be money that cell phones were included in the phone records referenced in the media. JMVHO.

So we arent just talking about the calls and records on the day of the disappearance. It wouldnt surprise me if there was some tracking done of communications for a while afterwards.

 

[zwiebel]

I hope so believe09. I think those calls could be quite enlightening.

 

[zwiebel]

So Dee Dee Moore (woman who killed a man for his money and was convicted with the help of Home Depot surveillance) has just been sentenced to life plus 25 years.

And now a lot of people are trying to claw back every penny she gained for herself and anything she distributed to her friends and family. Looks like they've got 'her' house already.