CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #14

[Cubby]

IMO, the twists surround the fight for the money. I'm sure part of that includes when AH stopped making his mortage payment and was unable to provide information on a seperate account in which he made payments to in the event Bob showed up. His commingly those funds, is a red flag. His evasiveness with what he did with a half million or better is a red flag. And please, don't tell me it went to pay off another loan. That's obvious. However the mortgage amount didn't just increase from 200,000 or so to 600,000 or so without AH taking cash out on a refi.


Also, if JeM's wife and son were at Bob's on Tuesday, why didn't he go dth with them to finish the work he left unfinished on Monday?

 

[zwiebel]

OMG Cubbby, please don't get me started on that work again.

It just doesn't fit, no way, no how.

If JeM was unworried enough about Bob to walk off and leave - and put a note on the table saying he'd be back the next day to finish up the repairs - but somehow, overnight, became so convinced Bob was never coming back he didn't need to finish the repairs?

But not so worried or convinced he didn't stop his wife from travelling down the hill to change sheets and heaven knows what, alone?

And all this was supposedly done for Fontelle's return. So even if Bob wasn't answering the phone, why wouldn't son-in-law have accompanied his wife 'down the hill' to finish the repairs for Fontelle, even if Bob was missing?

What I am starting to wonder is what family members have been told, and what LE may have been told. Is it possible JeM told LE one thing, and family members another? LE would be unlikely to release information given by one person under questioning, to another person they questioned.

Is it possible JeM's family members are defending something he said to them about the timeline, while he said something completely different to LE?

 

[Cubby]

Is it possible JeM's family members are defending something he said to them about the timeline, while he said something completely different to LE?

Respectfully, snipped. Oh and wouldn't that be an interesting way for JeM to throw the rest of the family under the bus? Especially when his wife posted on her community forum her dad had been missing about 28 hours, which puts it right around the time of that 10:00 am call LE mentions.

I'm really convinced they built a timeline not around facts, but around the available receipts and times which appeared on the caller id. Caller ID doesn't just list the most recent time a person called. It lists ALL the times a number/person has called. The same number can show up every 1-2 mintues if calls are made that short of a time apart. At least that is how my caller id works.

I think the most accurate time, are the ones JuM posted on Tuesday. I wonder which came first, the time she posted on her community forum? Or the time she gave to the media while being interviewed that same day.

You can't fit a square peg in to a circular hole. There is no way to make it work. the work is showing the numerous inconsistencies, which years later have not been cleared up by the innermost circle.

 

[believe09]

I don't know if LE did examine the computer. It made it onto the memorabilia list, with mom JuM stating it was AH's. So if it was still at the house, it would have been claimed along with the other stuff. I think only Fontelle would know if the computer had been removed by LE and then returned.

Or, in fact, if LE kept it and so daughters weren't able to take it with them when they collected the rest of the 'memorabilia'.

Personally, I think it is highly unlikely it was still at the house. jmvho.

 

[believe09]

OMG Cubbby, please don't get me started on that work again.

It just doesn't fit, no way, no how.

If JeM was unworried enough about Bob to walk off and leave - and put a note on the table saying he'd be back the next day to finish up the repairs - but somehow, overnight, became so convinced Bob was never coming back he didn't need to finish the repairs?

But not so worried or convinced he didn't stop his wife from travelling down the hill to change sheets and heaven knows what, alone?

And all this was supposedly done for Fontelle's return. So even if Bob wasn't answering the phone, why wouldn't son-in-law have accompanied his wife 'down the hill' to finish the repairs for Fontelle, even if Bob was missing?

What I am starting to wonder is what family members have been told, and what LE may have been told. Is it possible JeM told LE one thing, and family members another? LE would be unlikely to release information given by one person under questioning, to another person they questioned.

Is it possible JeM's family members are defending something he said to them about the timeline, while he said something completely different to LE?

One of the most startling pieces of information I learned from Disappeared was that JeM proposed that Bob had taken ill.

That makes his lack of return and concern even more bizarre. JMO.

 

[Cubby]

Personally, I think it is highly unlikely it was still at the house. jmvho.

When Fontelle returned? I guess only Fontelle and LE would know if a computer allegedly belonging to AH was in Bob's home on the day she returned to CA, or not. Especially if it appeared on the memorabilia list. Hmm.

 

[believe09]

When Fontelle returned? I guess only Fontelle and LE would know if a computer allegedly belonging to AH was in Bob's home on the day she returned to CA, or not. Especially if it appeared on the memorabilia list. Hmm.

AH had unlimited access to the house after the well being check unless LE confiscated the key. Clearly they didnt because JuM got into the house at some point. At least imo.

I have some healthy skepticism regarding the memorabilia list too, fwiw.

 

[deca]

Soooo...if JeM is saying Bob was definitely home when he went to Home Depot, that has to mean he is saying Bob was in the house with the housekeeper when he left?

I would like to try and work out what the 'twists' Det. Radomski mentioned are. I think the the first might well have been

1) the dementia/no dementia, glasses/no glasses etc twist
2) the time JeM left, and where he went twist

Anymore, anyone?

Well, I am still a newbie to this case and I might be confused but I thought there were TWO trips to HD. Am I wrong?

So JeM arrives in the morning at around 9:30 ish. Call with Bob in background supposedly a little later that morning. JeM leaves to HD with "Bob still home" (cough, cough) and returns from HD at about 12 ish to see the housekeeper waiting there because Bob isn't there to let her in. Then when CL is working, JeM leaves again for HD trip #2.

On another note, could the rumored CVS soda been the spiked drink, and not coffee? I wonder if Bob had an occasional soda? But would he have had one mid morning?

 

[deca]

Ok, bringing a timeline forward here: (taken from WS "Angelo")

Mon, July 27, 2009
• Weather: Low temp: 68.5 F, high temp: 91.4 F, avg: 78.2 F; precipitation: 0.0
• ~6:00AM – Sunrise in CA
• 9:30AM – JM, Bob’s son-in-law, arrived at Bob’s house
• AM/Time? – SIL went to CVS in Placentia in the AM, and he purchased soda and paper plates (rumor/hearsay)
• 10:00AM – Per officials, there was a phone call to Bob, which is the last time anyone other than SIL JM verified he was at the house. (Ref: This was a comment posted by the reporter/writer of article Adam Townsend, under the actual article) (Note: Was this the call with the housekeeper?)
• Morning - Bob talked to the housekeeper on the phone and told her to come
• 11:00AM-12:00 – Per daughter PB, she called and spoke to Bob during this time. She said she heard SIL (her BIL) say he was going to the hardware store and her father “responded in a favorable way.” She also posted that her number “came up as private.” (ref: NAMUS report published Aug 18, 2009 and August 11, 2009 post on IS forum)
• ~2:30PM-2:40PM – SIL JM left Bob’s house and went to Home Depot (ref OC Register and LA Times articles)
• Time? – SIL JM arrived at Home Depot. (Note: Unknown which Home Depot JM went to. There is a Home Depot at 601 S Placentia Ave, Fullerton, CA 92831-5199. Distance is only 2.7 miles from Bob’s address in Placentia, about a 6-minute drive. There is another Home Depot located at 2455 E Imperial Hwy, Brea, CA 92821-6114. Distance from Bob’s address in Placentia is 2.8 miles, about a 7-minute drive.)
• Time? – The housekeeper arrived at Bob’s house. The door was locked and nobody answered (rumor/hearsay she arrived at ~3PM)
• 3:04PM – SIL JM paid for purchases at Home Depot (time stamp of purchase receipt). It has not been made public what the purchase was
• 3:30PM – SIL JM arrived back at Bob’s house from Home Depot, and the housekeeper was sitting on the porch, waiting to be let in. She told SIL JM the door was locked and nobody was answering, and that Bob might be taking a nap. SIL JM then went into the house to check, and Bob was not there. SIL JM told the housekeeper his father-in-law might have gone to visit a neighbor
• Time? – The housekeeper cleaned and left the house
• 6:00PM – SIL JM left the house and headed home to Running Springs
• Time? – SIL JM arrived home in Running Springs
• ~8:00PM – FH called Bob’s house but he didn’t answer. She called him every 20 minutes until daughter JM later called to say her father was missing
• Evening/Night – Bob’s daughter JM called the house, and there was no answer. She called her sisters, RB and PB
• Evening/Night – Daughter RB posted later that she called Placentia Police to do a wellness/welfare check at Bob’s residence (not confirmed; possible discrepancy). Officers found the house/car secure and no signs of foul play.
• Evening/Night – Bob’s daughter JM called FH in Missouri and told her Bob was missing

Date? Time?
• Daughter JM went to Bob’s house to “change the linens” (per daughter’s Aug 4th post on ROTW stating that before she went dth to get the house ready, linens changed for he and his wife; she started to call all the local hospitals, coroner’s office, etc.) http://rimoftheworld.net/discuss/166/53721?page=4)

 

[MaryNo]

I was out having brunch with a friend, and we were discussing unrelated junk, and for whatever reason, I remembered an event back when my son was a toddler.

Something most parents back in THAT day were familiar with, was a sugary little bottle of something, that made a child vomit, and sleepy afterwards -

Syrup of Ipecac - over the counter, has sugar (my son took it without a hitch), and empties the stomach really well. It takes very little to get a person purging. Can be added to ANY liquid. Could have been added to coffee to go along with Believe09's powdered donuts. Sweet enough to go in Cubby's coffee. Over the counter, to meet criteria related to everyone else's speculations regarding spiking the coffee.

I am not familiar with the names of any other products of this nature. These folks are a bit more savvy in the drug arena than I. Anyway, the theory is pretty clear.

Get a receipt for something mundane such as donuts, and paper plates. Oops, "forgot something". Turn from the register, and get Ipecac (or any similar product), and pay cash "just one item".

Jeff gave an excuse that Bob could have taken ill. Julie gave us the "cure" for vomit in the carpet.

Bob may have gotten in a vehicle with the belief he had the flu, and needed to see a doc. Syrup of Ipecac can really make a person weak, and lethargic.

Dressed all in white, or wrapped in a white sheet? Placed on the seat in the event Bob got sick on the way to the doc? Not sure about the sheet. I'm still stuck on Bob getting in a vehicle on his own accord. It's open to change, yet.

Kinda weird to go to CVS for doughnuts and sodas. Usually you go to a grocery store or a convenience store like 7-11 for those item. For CVS you go for precriptions, OTC meds, little gifts, things like that.

FYI

The reason I brought up the donuts is because all of you peaked my interest with the discussion of an additive of some kind.

Using this post as a spring board.....

sweet enough to mix in with Bob's morning coffee

What if Bob got into the truck on his own accord ...

Add the carpet cleaning to the list of evasive unanswered questions by Bob's daughters.
IIRC, daughter JuM also posted, or rather boasted, on her community forum about how well vodka removes the odor of vomit from carpets.
She did have the doors open and appeared sweaty when being interviewed the day following her dads disappearance. I've always wondered if those doors were left open due to humidity within the home due to wet/damp carpets.

It's a little more plausible, imo, since JeM did suggest to police Bob may have come down ill...
and perhaps JuM was worried some kind of fluids/forensic evidence might be on those sheets.
Did she ever turn the sheets over to LE?

 

[Cubby]

Well, I am still a newbie to this case and I might be confused but I thought there were TWO trips to HD. Am I wrong?

So JeM arrives in the morning at around 9:30 ish. Call with Bob in background supposedly a little later that morning. JeM leaves to HD with "Bob still home" (cough, cough) and returns from HD at about 12 ish to see the housekeeper waiting there because Bob isn't there to let her in. Then when CL is working, JeM leaves again for HD trip #2.

On another note, could the rumored CVS soda been the spiked drink, and not coffee? I wonder if Bob had an occasional soda? But would he have had one mid morning?

JeM told police he went to HD twice. However, according to LE, JeM only provided them with one HD receipt time stamped hours after he arrived at Bob's to find the CL waiting.

There is no evidence to confirm JeM made a trip to HD ~prior~ to the CL's arrival.


Good question on whether or not Bob was a soda drinker.

 

[believe09]

Oh my goodness, I remember Ipecac Syrup. That and baking soda with warm water....yuck. Both did the job, however.

 

[MaryNo]

RE: soda. Soda and donuts might have been a bit too much? Probably not a good idea to generalize, but isn't that generation more likely to have tea or coffee with donuts? Seeing as it was before noon, would that have been a bit too much sugary stuff? For some reason, maybe stereotyping him here, but, I just can't see Bob sitting down to a soda in the morning.

It's a great question, as the daughters said he wasn't taking care of himself. (Like I believe a word said from that arena, but ... )

 

[Mels3kidz]

I found this link regarding repairs on placentia city streets. Granted it was published after Bob went missing but fact gathering ect ould have been done prior. And it might be why that road crew was on carnation Dr. http://www.placentia.org/index.aspx?nid=559

Mel

 

[MaryNo]

BBM She stated she got there around noon (Disappeared), and waited for about 15 mins. when Jeff arrived.

Have no idea when Bob talked to Agnes about coming Monday to clean. We only know that he changed the day from Tuesday to Monday. He must have spoken to her before 9:30 am Monday, as he tells her "Jeff IS coming".

The phone call at 10, I theorize was Fontelle. She doesn't say that there was concern regarding the morning phone call, just the evening. She becomes concerned around 7:00 pm

He purchased paper plates and donuts at CVS. (Receipt)

As I look, there's more that needs updating. But the gist is this post is no longer up-to-date.

Ok, bringing a timeline forward here: (taken from WS "Angelo")

Mon, July 27, 2009
• Weather: Low temp: 68.5 F, high temp: 91.4 F, avg: 78.2 F; precipitation: 0.0
• ~6:00AM – Sunrise in CA
• 9:30AM – JM, Bob’s son-in-law, arrived at Bob’s house
• AM/Time? – SIL went to CVS in Placentia in the AM, and he purchased soda and paper plates (rumor/hearsay)
• 10:00AM – Per officials, there was a phone call to Bob, which is the last time anyone other than SIL JM verified he was at the house. (Ref: This was a comment posted by the reporter/writer of article Adam Townsend, under the actual article) (Note: Was this the call with the housekeeper?)
• Morning - Bob talked to the housekeeper on the phone and told her to come
• 11:00AM-12:00 – Per daughter PB, she called and spoke to Bob during this time. She said she heard SIL (her BIL) say he was going to the hardware store and her father “responded in a favorable way.” She also posted that her number “came up as private.” (ref: NAMUS report published Aug 18, 2009 and August 11, 2009 post on IS forum)
• ~2:30PM-2:40PM – SIL JM left Bob’s house and went to Home Depot (ref OC Register and LA Times articles)
• Time? – SIL JM arrived at Home Depot. (Note: Unknown which Home Depot JM went to. There is a Home Depot at 601 S Placentia Ave, Fullerton, CA 92831-5199. Distance is only 2.7 miles from Bob’s address in Placentia, about a 6-minute drive. There is another Home Depot located at 2455 E Imperial Hwy, Brea, CA 92821-6114. Distance from Bob’s address in Placentia is 2.8 miles, about a 7-minute drive.)
• Time? – The housekeeper arrived at Bob’s house. The door was locked and nobody answered (rumor/hearsay she arrived at ~3PM)
• 3:04PM – SIL JM paid for purchases at Home Depot (time stamp of purchase receipt). It has not been made public what the purchase was
• 3:30PM – SIL JM arrived back at Bob’s house from Home Depot, and the housekeeper was sitting on the porch, waiting to be let in. She told SIL JM the door was locked and nobody was answering, and that Bob might be taking a nap. SIL JM then went into the house to check, and Bob was not there. SIL JM told the housekeeper his father-in-law might have gone to visit a neighbor
• Time? – The housekeeper cleaned and left the house
• 6:00PM – SIL JM left the house and headed home to Running Springs
• Time? – SIL JM arrived home in Running Springs
• ~8:00PM – FH called Bob’s house but he didn’t answer. She called him every 20 minutes until daughter JM later called to say her father was missing
• Evening/Night – Bob’s daughter JM called the house, and there was no answer. She called her sisters, RB and PB
• Evening/Night – Daughter RB posted later that she called Placentia Police to do a wellness/welfare check at Bob’s residence (not confirmed; possible discrepancy). Officers found the house/car secure and no signs of foul play.
• Evening/Night – Bob’s daughter JM called FH in Missouri and told her Bob was missing

Date? Time?
• Daughter JM went to Bob’s house to “change the linens” (per daughter’s Aug 4th post on ROTW stating that before she went dth to get the house ready, linens changed for he and his wife; she started to call all the local hospitals, coroner’s office, etc.) http://rimoftheworld.net/discuss/166/53721?page=4)

 

[TDW59]

Cubby, we can't get the single episode to download on our computer..much to my frustration!

I found this post by you made July 1, 2010:
Immediate thought on who had the means.
Theories only... not pointing fingers.
1- SIL. Goes to the store and has both his receipts and the cleaning lady waiting at the house BOTH are there to 'witness' Bob being missing... Kind of convenient imo.

Other thoughts that come to mind.

Who was managing Bobs assets at the time the daughters were being more persistant? It could be that whomever was managing the assets was hiding something and did not want the daughters to become aware money was squandered or stolen by the manager of the funds. I ask, because unfortunatly my sons paternal grandmother became victim to this in her 80's. She was ripped off for about 450,000 herself and 7 or so seniors were victims to the scam. We can hope the daughters would have become aware of such a possible scenario and have checked, and not blindly trusted whomever is handling those assets. UNQUOTE


Little did we know of the situation with ARH at that time.

I do think it would be protocol to take the computer or does that require a warrant? hmmm, I think it does.

I too had the thought that in my experience it would be unusual for Bob to be drinking the cola, that it was for the SIL....and I so agree with buying those couple items and then turning around and making another separate purchase.

I think it was the CL who changed the day rather than Bob?

And we know from CL that she arrived around noon not 3pm and that JeM left before she was finished. He produced an HD receipt for shortly after 3pm.

I am re-reading, trying to determine if he did return to Bob's, if so for how long and what time he got home.

Jem saying Bob was feeling ill and then later that maybe he was napping lends some weight to the hypothesis that he may have been drugged.

I recall JuM announcing cleaning vomit with vodka, I am still on the fence about that.

I have some other ideas about that night and the next day but I want to get caught up on facts first...which may take a very very long time.

I will try again to download that episode.

You all sure have covered alot of important ground!

and I am listening.

 

[Cubby]

BBM She stated she got there around noon (Disappeared), and waited for about 15 mins. when Jeff arrived.

Have no idea when Bob talked to Agnes about coming Monday to clean. We only know that he changed the day from Tuesday to Monday. He must have spoken to her before 9:30 am Monday, as he tells her "Jeff IS coming".

The phone call at 10, I theorize was Fontelle. She doesn't say that there was concern regarding the morning phone call, just the evening. She becomes concerned around 7:00 pm

He purchased paper plates and donuts at CVS. (Receipt)

As I look, there's more that needs updating. But the gist is this post is no longer up-to-date.

The cleaning ladly arranged to come Monday instead of Tuesday due to her schedule. I think she called him sometime Monday morning and made the change the same day.

 

[TDW59]

http://www.poison.org/prepared/ipecac.asp

syrup of ipecac is no longer as easily available, wonder if CVS carries it?

 

[Cubby]

TDW59, Just curious. If you can't get the single episode to download to your computer, how are you going to get the full season to download?

Any of my posts from the summer of 2010 would have gone back to when I first started following Bob's case. Much has been learned and excluded and ruled out since then.

For example, at the time of the post of mine you quoted, I hadn't yet seen or discovered the two receipts were not time stamped ~prior~ to the CL's arrival. Further research and msm info indicated only one was and it was not the hardware store receipt. You'll see Det. Loomis discussing the receipt information in the Disappeared episode when you are able to view it.

hth

 

[MaryNo]

Yes, it's still easily available. Yes, CVS carries it. It can be ordered online, as well. I looked earlier - then promptly fell asleep. I ate too many pancakes :blushing: LOL

http://www.poison.org/prepared/ipecac.asp

syrup of ipecac is no longer as easily available, wonder if CVS carries it?