CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #15

[zwiebel]

I agree Oriah. The trouble is, LE tends to be very real when they arrive. And no matter how much a person has created their own, alternative reality, it doesn't alter the consequences when real life comes knocking at the door in a uniform. Consequences are consequences.

Though I suppose you could spend your life in a small barred cell pretending you were sitting in a flower-filled garden, perhaps.

O/T Oriah but if you spot this - we have two missing little boys here or next door in the Netherlands. Not looking good as the father drove them all over before committing suicide by hanging. Half the straps are missing. Marines are searching the woods without dogs though they have plenty available. Does that mean they are not looking for burial sites?

 

[zwiebel]

I'm furious with that rotten man I mentioned above. But I'm certain his last, wicked act is going to fail and those little boys will soon be brought home, although it is going to be a heartbreaking event. The calibre and number of SAR people out there is amazing.

Which brings me to Bob. He can't be missing for more than a decade, as poor Lynsie was. It can't take 15 years to solve his case, as it did for that other Orange County murder victim, Bill McLaughlin. It can't because it just shouldn't.

I'm certain the answers are right there - that in the muddled story around Bob's disappearance, lies the clear answer to what happened to him, and where he is. Someone just needs to dig it out, sort the wheat from the chaff and the truth from the lies.

I've run out of metaphors now, but you know what I mean. We can wait for justice, but Bob really needs to be brought home soon. Please let it be this year.

 

[Cubby]

Interesting no body murder conviction with circumstantial evidence similiar to Bob's case.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1525116.html

Very, very interesting imo. I'm not sure, but maybe someone brought this case up in an earlier thread?

Anyhoo, I am going to dig deeper into the comparisons between what we know about Bob's case in comparison with the Bierenbaum case, when time permits.

In particular in the above case, the similiarities between the vehicles checked, the private plane being involved, almost no physical evidence, and I think I am going to compare the missing sheets to the missing rug in the Katz-Bierenbaum case.

It won't hurt to dig up some case law to compare Bob's case to those cases with convictions. Especially if it helps Det. Rad and the OC prosecutors.

Feel free to have at it and dig away fellow sleuths. Remember it was a WS'r who found evidence which may have changed the conclusion of the Anthony trial. We can try to do the same for Bob, in order to help get his case to trial.

Perhaps negotiating on sentencing might lead someone to reveal Bob's whereabouts?

No stone left unturned!

 

[zwiebel]

Good idea. The worst that can happen if we pursue ideas that don't pan out is....they don't pan out. Who cares? It doesn't stop us trying again.

O/T: Two little bodies found in the poor little missing boys' case I mentioned above. In a drainpipe. Now that is a bad father, in case Bob's daughters still think they are hard done by. The marines and SAR are bringing them home to mom. I love those guys.

 

[zwiebel]

I wish I could pay for all those marines and SAR people to fly over and search for Bob. They'd find him.

Luckily, you have plenty of your own marines and SAR teams in the US, and very good they are too. Now we just have to get them out looking for Bob.....with an idea of where they should be looking.

Anyone with any contacts in the marines out there? Willing to lend a helping hand to bring a missing veteran home?

 

[suzyq211]

A little odd PB added there were no threats when not prompted.......

Makes me almost bet threats were in fact made. Fine example of the family covering for each other, imo.

Now to know, who threatened who and what exactly were the threats?[/QUOTE]

BBM

EXACTLY!!!!

 

[zwiebel]

I've just had a big lecture from Mr Z on the difference between phenomenal, phenomena and phenomenom. Which went straight in one ear and out the other.

I'm going to quote him now; "It's standard ancient Greek darling, it's not rocket science", which will teach him to tease me like that. I can't even learn modern German, let alone ancient Greek.

Gosh, that Larry Montgomery, lead investigator at Orange County District Attorney's Office has a lot to answer for.

I still agree with Det Loomis though - he's phenomenal. Just the person we need on Bob's case.

 

[deca]

Nothing constructive to add here: just thinking aloud.

It struck me that this case has something somewhat in common with Lauren Speirer's case. In both Bob's case and Lauren's there are a group of people (not just 1 person) who fall under suspicion. In both cases rumor has it that the group somehow make a pact of silence, are covering for each other, not assisting LE to the fullest, etc.

I am not sure if I have come across any other cases where there is a group like this.

It must be rare to have a group of more than 2 people where LE is not able to "turn" one of them into giving more information. Or, have one of them have a change of heart.

 

[Oriah]

Good idea. The worst that can happen if we pursue ideas that don't pan out is....they don't pan out. Who cares? It doesn't stop us trying again.

O/T: Two little bodies found in the poor little missing boys' case I mentioned above. In a drainpipe. Now that is a bad father, in case Bob's daughters still think they are hard done by. The marines and SAR are bringing them home to mom. I love those guys.

So sorry for the little boys.
As to why no dogs used...no idea. Seems odd, they'd have them out here typically in that sort of situation. Maybe they had a very good idea of where they were?

 

[zwiebel]

So sorry for the little boys.
As to why no dogs used...no idea. Seems odd, they'd have them out here typically in that sort of situation. Maybe they had a very good idea of where they were?

Yes, you're absolutely correct. It seems they had a specific tip about the location.

Is there a method SAR teams can use when you have huge expanses of possible locations, as we do in Bob's case? I mean sort of using probabilities, from where bodies have been left in other cases, or what kind of abduction or who the perp might be?

I think I'm asking for a magic system where we can work out exactly where Bob is, probably. But I do find the huge masses of terrain in CA daunting. It's just so big. And has so many areas where there isn't a house for miles.

 

[zwiebel]

I read through that case law example about Bierenbaum and Katz. It was interesting. These are the points that I think are particularly interesting for us:

B was convicted without the body of his wife Katz being located *

Witnesses were allowed to give evidence about what the victim had said about B's threats; hearsay evidence where the jury just had to consider if the witness was reliable or not. Reliability is the 'sum' of the circumstances (did witness have bias, some motive to lie?)

It was permitted as background evidence of B's possible motive, intent and identity (I think identity in this case means his personality).
The jury were not allowed to take this hearsay evidence as proof that B had actually acted in accordance with it and killed his wife. Just that he possibly had.

Bits of B's story that he left out - that were 'consistently absent' - received short shrift. The appeal court said he lied to officers. Period.

B had told different stories to different people about what had happened on the day Katz disappeared, and where he thought she'd gone, and why. This was perfectly allowable as evidence and again showed he lied. B suggested
A PI told him Katz was hiding out in California
Katz was a druggie with dark friends (dark is my word)
Katz disappeared from Central Park
Katz was suicidal
Katz was waitressing at a beach resort somewhere (yikes! Sounds like Drew Peterson talking about Stacy; "She's on the beach.")

The apartment rug had not been cleaned after the disappearance. (It had).

Interestingly, Katz's therapist came forward to state she was not suicidal. That reminds me of Bob's docter and the 'dementia'. The jury in this case seem to have accepted the therapist's word against that of the husband.

Videos LE made where a pilot experimented with throwing a bag the same weight as Katz outside, while still flying the plane, were permitted. The appeal court decided they were not speculation. They were feasible. It doesn't say if the fact B was flying his plane that day and lied about it, helped the judges come to that decision.

* It seems a body was located from the water, judged to be Katz and interred. No charges were brought against husband then. it was only years later when body was exhumed and DNA tests proved the body wasn't Katz, that the DA charged the husband with murder....? Very strange.

 

[zwiebel]

This is where I see things that line up with Bob's case:

Bob has not been located.

We have at least two witnesses, Fontelle and PE, to give evidence things were not right between Bob and his family. ETA: We have AH too, as believe09 just reminded me.

Bits of story left out, different stories, odd timelines.
Bob's case has that.

Suggestions of dark secrets,friends, mental health problems, beaches, hiding out.
Bob's case has that.

Rug/carpet cleaning.
Bob's case has that. Don't know if any lies were told about it.

Medical professional coming forward to refute allegations of mental health problems.
Bob's case has that.

Video.
Bob's case has that. Of a truck though, not a plane.

 

[believe09]

This is where I see things that line up with Bob's case:

Bob has not been located.

We have at least two witnesses, Fontelle and PE, to give evidence things were not right between Bob and his family.

Bits of story left out, different stories, odd timelines.
Bob's case has that.

Suggestions of dark secrets,friends, mental health problems, beaches, hiding out.
Bob's case has that.

Rug/carpet cleaning.
Bob's case has that. Don't know if any lies were told about it.

Medical professional coming forward to refute allegations of mental health problems.
Bob's case has that.

Video.
Bob's case has that. Of a truck though, not a plane.

BBM-we have AH as well making his comments to LEO.

 

[Oriah]

In response to zwie's post above:
BBM:
<Is there a method SAR teams can use when you have huge expanses of possible locations, as we do in Bob's case? I mean sort of using probabilities, from where bodies have been left in other cases, or what kind of abduction or who the perp might be?
I think I'm asking for a magic system where we can work out exactly where Bob is, probably. But I do find the huge masses of terrain in CA daunting. It's just so big. And has so many areas where there isn't a house for miles.>


There are actual computerized programs that certain SAR groups use (the military is one of them) to help pinpoint and determine probable areas of locations when vast terrain is involved. I think I have a post on here somewhere detailing the one we use, but it's gotta be way far back/buried in another thread somewhere.
The probability and statistics are- of course- based upon primary evidence used in SAR- for example, age, last seen location, ability to travel and via what means, state of health, special needs, evidence recovered at last scene location, etc etc- and then translated into what is essentially a binary system.

In Mr. Harrod's case, we have a lot of that information available. These program(s) that use this information to try and pinpoint location, work like an algorithm.
Simple description:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/algorithm
More complex usage:
http://www.cut-the-knot.org/arithmetic/BaseExpansion.shtml

Mr. Z may be interested in the SAR programs available using computer programs to help identify finite locations of missing persons in situations such as Mr. Harrod's. :;

I will warn you, it is a heck of a lot of work, and one has to be good with patience and frustration. Using one, t's a good idea to be a mathematician at heart, if not by trade alone.

 

[tamild]

I'm having one of those sticky-wicket type thoughts, and want to get it down before it exits my head...

From Disappeared:

Det. Loomis: It was kind of the conclusion of all of the detectives involved that there was a possibility that Bob was contemplating having moved a little too fast with Fontelle and that perhaps he was getting a little nervous about the prospect of really closing the chapter with his deceased wife Georgia by getting rid of all of her belongings and her effects in the house to make preparation for Fontelle.

BBM

Getting rid of all of Georgia's belongings...the only problem with that is that we know from the "memorabilia list," that it hadn't happened yet. Fontelle was going to be there in two days. There is no way Bob, with bad knees and difficulty walking, could've planned to clear out Georgia's things on his own. What was the plan? Was JeM supposed to help with this? The daughters? AH? Someone else? Was this discussed with Bob's family? Could this have been something that was argued about at the family meeting?

 

[Cubby]

I'm having one of those sticky-wicket type thoughts, and want to get it down before it exits my head...

From Disappeared:
BBM

Getting rid of all of Georgia's belongings...the only problem with that is that we know from the "memorabilia list," that it hadn't happened yet. Fontelle was going to be there in two days. There is no way Bob, with bad knees and difficulty walking, could've planned to clear out Georgia's things on his own. What was the plan? Was JeM supposed to help with this? The daughters? AH? Someone else? Was this discussed with Bob's family? Could this have been something that was argued about at the family meeting?

JuM posted on her community forum she had been dth to help clear out her mothers things before Bob's disappearance. In the 3 weeks or so Fontelle was in MO planning her move, at least 2 of Bob's daughters, PB and JuM had visited Bob to help move Georgia's things. In one of the court doc's PB testified she had seen her dad 4 days before his disappearance.

Also, if you look at the memorabilia list it's clear there was far more than just sentimental items. It's clear they were emptying out the house and leaving behind whatever belongings they considered 'trash' for lack of a better word. I have no doubt, from the length of that list, JuM took an inventory in the 48 hours she had full access to Bob's house following his disappearance.

 

[tamild]

JuM posted on her community forum she had been dth to help clear out her mothers things before Bob's disappearance. In the 3 weeks or so Fontelle was in MO planning her move, at least 2 of Bob's daughters, PB and JuM had visited Bob to help move Georgia's things. In one of the court doc's PB testified she had seen her dad 4 days before his disappearance.

Also, if you look at the memorabilia list it's clear there was far more than just sentimental items. It's clear they were emptying out the house and leaving behind whatever belongings they considered 'trash' for lack of a better word. I have no doubt, from the length of that list, JuM took an inventory in the 48 hours she had full access to Bob's house following his disappearance.

Thank you for the info on the community postings. I wish I had been around for that! So the daughters had been clearing out Georgia's things, but from the look of it, it was likely clothing, shoes, medicines, denture cream, etc? There is still so much on the list, even aside from the things we all know were clearly not memorabilia. Georgia's jewelry, perfume bottles, knitting supplies, knick-knacks...these things must have been off limits as far as Bob was concerned? Did Bob fight with his daughters over these things? Did Bob inform his daughters that these things belong to HIM now and he'd do whatever he wanted with them, or let Fontelle decide whether or not she wanted them?

For me, this is where I see motive--smack dab in the middle of minutiae. Personal items cause people to become emotionally charged. For instance, jewelry..."I'll be damned if I'm gonna let some other woman wear Mom's jewelry" or "I'm not letting Dad just give Mom's stuff away." Yep, motive all over the place.

 

[zwiebel]

I agree with you there tamild. I think the items taken from the house were about much more than just money. It was really personal and it was used to send a message to Fontelle, I believe. Which was, 'Go home. Forget Bob ever existed'.

Strangely enough, it came over most clearly to me in the item left behind - the stair elevator, and JuM's barbed comment that it was 'as per Dad's wishes' that it should stay. It seemed that might have been quite deliberate because she somehow knew Fontelle didn't want it there.

I wonder who was left Georgia's diamond earrings? The ones loaned to Paula for her wedding?

 

[Oriah]

I agree with you there tamild. I think the items taken from the house were about much more than just money. It was really personal and it was used to send a message to Fontelle, I believe. Which was, 'Go home. Forget Bob ever existed'.

Strangely enough, it came over most clearly to me in the item left behind - the stair elevator, and JuM's barbed comment that it was 'as per Dad's wishes' that it should stay. It seemed that might have been quite deliberate because she somehow knew Fontelle didn't want it there.

I wonder who was left Georgia's diamond earrings? The ones loaned to Paula for her wedding?

Isn't JuM's home more than one story? Doesn't she have mobility issues? Perhaps she was hoping to be able to use it. We had one ages ago when my great grandmother lived with us. She had terrible back and knee pain and could never have managed the stairs in our home.
When she passed away at the wonderful old age of 102, we offered it to the Salvation Army. They told us to sell it on EBay and send them the cash instead!
I always thought that was sort of funny- chair lifts are rather expensive.

Not to be confused, however, that I think that's the reason why the chairlift is no longer....around. I think there's a different reason entirely.

 

[zwiebel]

Omigosh!

Could that be why daughters were making such a fuss about the 'reports' they'd heard it was being dismantled and taken outside? They were trying to find out if it was being forensically examined......or even taken away as evidence?

I hadn't thought of that. Bob was a tall man. If anything had happened to him upstairs, the stair lift would have been an easy way to bring him downstairs.