CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #17

[Oriah]

There were no dirty dishes by the time police checked the house - the housekeeper had done them, I imagine. I hope though, she was questioned soon enough that she could recall what was there. She would certainly be able to tell if donuts had been on plates......

But then, wasn't son in law said to have purchased paper plates too? With a possible explanation given by daughter that Bob didn't like washing up or something? It didn't really make sense to me, because Bob knew his housekeeper was coming and would clean any dishes.

travelbug, was that 15 children a typo?

The paper plates, and Mr. Harrod not liking to clean, and the housekeeper, and the donuts actually make sense to me. I'd bring my elderly father (or father-in-law) the same if I were going to visit one morning.

But...I'd also do the same for my co-workers, if we were embarking on a stressful job and needed to brief; or debrief about a particularly stressful job we'd just concluded.

I've wondered if the explanation for- and the possible purchase of- the donuts and coffee was for some other purpose entirely. And whether or not video or other evidence corroborates who specifically purchased items on receipts used to clarify timeframes?

I've also wondered what Mr. Harrod ate or drank the evening before he went missing. Did the 'family meeting' not involve any sort of meal, snack, or beverages?
I haven't found any information on that. Have any of you? TIA.

 

[zwiebel]

No. I haven't seen any information about that meeting except;

Mrs Harrod was not discussed at all

Family laughed and joked about the marriage to Fontelle, with Bob

RB was quick to temper

So was Bob

JuM knew where to find all the missing paperwork

One sister was 'long gone' before the others

Son in Law was present

My feeling is - Bob would not have wanted to prepare food for them, and the meeting took place at his house, so there would not have been food unless someone brought it. From what daughters have said since, they were not the types to bring home cooked food to their father's house.

I don't think it would be a million miles from reality to think Bob may have eaten one of the following that evening

Biscuits/ cakes served with the liquid refreshments at the family meeting

And/or

A traditional ready meal comprising meat and veg, after everyone had gone.

 

[zwiebel]

Gosh, apologies to Mrs Harrod. Forgot she had been living there. I am sure Mrs Harrod would have stocked up the store cupboards before she left.

Having said that, I'm sure Mr Harrod would have defaulted to the easy, ready meal option while she was gone. Quite a few senior seniors I know really don't like eating a large meal in the evenings, and just have a snack or sandwich at that time. I wonder if Bob was a sandwich man? It's a 'staple foodstuff' in England - what's the situation in CA, and MO? Habits acquired young die hard.

 

[zwiebel]

It looks like the remains of a young man missing since 1992 have just been discovered, in the mountains near Porterville, not far from Ponderosa.

Over twenty years, and now a hiker has helped him come home. It's never too late for Bob. We should never give up.

http://www.recorderonline.com/articles/positive-58977-sgt-awaiting.html

 

[Grainne Dhu]

I had a thought along the same lines myself, last night. But I did wonder about any medications which might have been left over from Georgia's illness. She may have been prescribed very powerful painkillers in the late stages of her illness.

If Bob had ingested something and became sick, confused and distressed and wanted to call emergency services, rather than just becoming sleepy, urgent action may have been taken. It is a terrible scenario.

There's a lot of emphasis in the US on encouraging family to dispose of leftover meds correctly after someone dies. Bob strikes me as being someone who would go by the rules and do so.

In the LA area, it is incredibly easy to get hold of any sort of drug. Rohypnol or Versed would be my candidates; strong, fast acting and causing amnesia (not permanent but around the time the drug is ingested until it is metabolised).

 

[travelbug]

The paper plates, and Mr. Harrod not liking to clean, and the housekeeper, and the donuts actually make sense to me. I'd bring my elderly father (or father-in-law) the same if I were going to visit one morning.

But...I'd also do the same for my co-workers, if we were embarking on a stressful job and needed to brief; or debrief about a particularly stressful job we'd just concluded.

I've wondered if the explanation for- and the possible purchase of- the donuts and coffee was for some other purpose entirely. And whether or not video or other evidence corroborates who specifically purchased items on receipts used to clarify timeframes?

I've also wondered what Mr. Harrod ate or drank the evening before he went missing. Did the 'family meeting' not involve any sort of meal, snack, or beverages?
I haven't found any information on that. Have any of you? TIA.

I don't recall any references to food or drink the night of the meeting. We do know he spoke to Fontelle after the meeting. She has never mentioned him sounding anything but angry or annoyed at that time. We also know that he spoke with the housekeeper the morning after the meeting and sounded fine at that time. My thinking was similar to Grainne. Either a sedating substance or a substance designed to make someone ill (even ipecac might work) could be added to coffee (or a jelly doughnut). I think the idea would be do get Bob out of the house. The need to be taken to a doctor or clinic would accomplish that. My theory is that the plan was never to immediately harm Bob, but simply to have him disappear for a while. I think the family figured they could squirrel him away somewhere, spread the word that he left because he had cold feet, and Fontelle would then cancel her plans to return to California. We know that the daughters did not communicate with their father on a daily basis, yet at least 2 of them claim to have called the morning after the meeting, possibly to establish an alibi for that time period. A monkey wrench was thrown into the plans when the housekeeper turned up and also when Fontelle, bless her heart, decided to try to find Bob.

 

[travelbug]

There's a lot of emphasis in the US on encouraging family to dispose of leftover meds correctly after someone dies. Bob strikes me as being someone who would go by the rules and do so.

In the LA area, it is incredibly easy to get hold of any sort of drug. Rohypnol or Versed would be my candidates; strong, fast acting and causing amnesia (not permanent but around the time the drug is ingested until it is metabolised).

The one thing that might cause Bob to keep the meds is the generation he was from. All of my elderly relatives and friends seem to have medicine cabinets filled with expired pills and old prescriptions. They cannot bear the waste of throwing out something that "might be useful some day".

 

[zwiebel]

There is also a strong possibility that whoever disappeared Bob might have had access to sedating/painkilling drugs too.

 

[sreshowtime]

I have always thought Mr H left the house on his own two feet, more or less....and not by himself

 

[Grainne Dhu]

There is something almost genteel about using drugs to overdose a man who inconveniently held the purse strings. The perp could rationalise that it wasn't really an assault or murder because it was just a few ground up pills. <cue clutching of pearls>

The one thing that really throws the spanner in that theory is that Fontelle believes that whatever went down, it happened in the upstairs bedroom. She strikes me as an observant woman in addition to her obvious courage and gallantry. I think she has good reason to say that, even if for some reason she did not wish to reveal her reasoning on the air.

I'd love to know the reasons behind her saying that because I am certain she has good ones.

 

[zwiebel]

Yes, I'm afraid poor Mrs Harrod has a much better idea of what happened to Bob than we do. I can understand completely why police might have told her not to disclose full details of the "damage" she noticed in the bathroom - if police feel that has a connection to someone harming Bob, the only other living person likely to know full details is the person who caused it. If Mrs Harrod discloses to the public, lots of people will know and I think that could have an adverse effect, when it comes to a prosecution.

I'm not completely convinced the damage did take place in the bathroom off the master bedroom. In the police photo - which I can't find at the moment - it looks as though the bathroom shown is opens off a hallway/landing, not a bedroom.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Yes, I'm afraid poor Mrs Harrod has a much better idea of what happened to Bob than we do. I can understand completely why police might have told her not to disclose full details of the "damage" she noticed in the bathroom - if police feel that has a connection to someone harming Bob, the only other living person likely to know full details is the person who caused it. If Mrs Harrod discloses to the public, lots of people will know and I think that could have an adverse effect, when it comes to a prosecution.

I'm not completely convinced the damage did take place in the bathroom off the master bedroom. In the police photo - which I can't find at the moment - it looks as though the bathroom shown is opens off a hallway/landing, not a bedroom.

Is there a master bedroom bath? Given the approximate age of the house, it could go either way.

Even if there was one, I think it's fairly common for couples who have the luxury to divide the bathrooms between them. My mother used the master bedroom bath until she died in 2011 and my father is still using the other bath.

My point, such as it was, is that whatever happened to Bob apparently left some sort of evidence in the upstairs bath (no matter where it is located or if there is more than one upstairs bath) that has led Fontelle to believe the crucial event took place there.

To me, that suggests something violent happened.

 

[zwiebel]

Yes, the use of the word damage is telling. She didn't say something had been replaced or there was something new, she said there was something damaged.

It really has lots of implications. It obviously occured in the period when Mrs Harrod was away. That would provide a reason for son in law to have been working there; Bob damaged something and wanted it fixed before Mrs Harrod returned. Except....a daughter said she heard he was only going to fix a leaky shower seal. And despite working there for at least one day but probably two ( an early media report quotes LE saying JuM and JeM had been helping out for a 'couple' of days), son in law did not fix the damage.

Which leaves two options; either Bob caused the damage and didn't bother to ask son in law to fix it when he was fixing whatever else he was fixing (and not finishing) that day - or the damage occured so close to the time Bob disappeared, Bob never got the chance to ask for it to be fixed.

 

[zwiebel]

If the damage turns out to be something that should have been in any way obvious to anyone familiar with the house, it is going to look very odd if daughters didn't report it.

They were supposed to be there preparing the house for Fontelle's arrival the day after Bob disappeared, and that has got to include checking the bathroom. It would be very complacent if they had noticed damage and not reported it, with their father missing. Or at least checked with their brother in law if he had noticed it, or had any idea how it might have happened.

 

[zwiebel]

Grainne, do you know of any cases where a water scent-dog has located someone who has been in the water for a long period, rather than just days?

 

[zwiebel]

Here is the photo of the damaged bathroom again. I still think there is something stuck under one end of the tissue box, maybe to conceal a crack or chip.

 

[zwiebel]

And I think something is also going on with the tile grout just by the toilet brush. It looks as though it has been patched up with a different color, or even has silicon in it, rather than grout.

 

[zwiebel]

The tile must have been taken up a some point, I believe. The grout's a different color and the tile edge seems jagged, as though it has been damaged as it was pulled up.

The only other thing I can think of is the tile gives access to pipework and so has deliberately been grouted with silicon, as it's easier to remove and replace. Does anyone familiar with this type of home know if plumbing is likely to be accessed through the floor?

 

[zwiebel]

There is also a lighter strip by the side of the toilet base. As though at one time, the toilet might have been in a different place.

I wish we had the door hinges in the picture - it might be possible to tell from marks on the frame, if the door and hinges had recently been replaced. It looks to me as though the door buts up right against the tub, and might get damaged if someone fell against it, or opened it violently.

ETA. I don't know if it's 'buts' or 'butts'.

 

[Mahouston69]

The police photo taken the way it is, indicates to me, the Police Photographer is taking it for a reason, and the reason to me looks like water/bleach damage to the floor. If there were police photos taken of the other areas of the bathroom, would we have them? Like the bath, and sink? To fix a leaky shower in our home, the wall above and below the shower head had to be "opened" with a claw hammer, and tile replaced after the repair.

I still cannot get out of my head that a certain someone discussed on her local blog, something about removing a whole bathtub to make sure no evidence could be found after a crime happened in a bathtub. That she had seen that in a crime story or read that in a case on TV or online. It's been months since I read it, but it jumped out at me.