CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - # 9

[Cubby]

I'm not following you Shana. gitana1's info was pretty clear to me. nothing seemed one sided about it.

If Bob's assets, per LE per MSM, were stated as multi million, we'll assume two. With approximately 800,000 left. Even with the addtional 10K of attorney fees and approximately 97,000 in stipend to Mrs. Harrod over a 3 year period that still leaves more than 1 million unaccounted for.

There are only two co-conservators with access to Mr. Harrod's accounts.

Count me in as one who is willing to contribute to costs for any docs. And thank you, Gitana! You're a Godsend!

 

[shana]

I'm not following you Shana. gitana1's info was pretty clear to me. nothing seemed one sided about it.

If Bob's assets, per LE per MSM, were stated as multi million, we'll assume two. With approximately 800,000 left. Even with the addtional 10K of attorney fees and approximately 97,000 in stipend to Mrs. Harrod over a 3 year period that still leaves more than 1 million unaccounted for.

There are only two co-conservators with access to Mr. Harrod's accounts.

Count me in as one who is willing to contribute to costs for any docs. And thank you, Gitana! You're a Godsend!

Cubby, I did not say that gitana's info was one-sided. I am not critiquing her contributions whatsoever, and in fact I thanked her for them above. I had also mentioned that I would like to see many docs from the court cases and that would include motions/objections/etc from both sides.

As for the financials, I'm just trying to understand, like most everyone else is, where the money could have gone. There has to be an explanation and I hope we will eventually get it.

~jmo~

 

[Cubby]

Cubby, I did not say that gitana's info was one-sided. I am not critiquing her contributions whatsoever, and in fact I thanked her for them above. I had also mentioned that I would like to see many docs from the court cases and that would include motions/objections/etc from both sides.

As for the financials, I'm just trying to understand, like most everyone else is, where the money could have gone. There has to be an explanation and I hope we will eventually get it.

~jmo~

Thank you for clarifying. I wasn't following you at all with regards to information being one sided. I appreciate your clarifying for me.

 

[believe09]

Now, for me-the probate cases and the criminal case have some overlap and are independent of one another. IMO.

In my simplistic view we have two trust accounts that belong to Bob. We have a number of assets that belong to Bob, including real estate that houses wife, children and grandchild and great grandchildren.

I assume the mediation session where Mrs Harrod agreed to the girls being appointed co conservators of their dad's assets also contained the agreed upon terms that the girls would report to the court and file a regular audit which would disclose their handling of their father's assets. That whole fiduciary responsibility thing, right?

Now in my simplicity, I also assume that the co conservators would only be able to remove reasonable costs from the trusts for their own benefit. That they would be prohibited from co mingling trust assets with their own, and that they would ensure that Bob's money and stuff remain in tact. That they would adhere to the trust document.

Is that fair? I mean, is that reasonable? As far as I can see, their attorneys have spent quite a bit of time and money in churning paperwork, but that is jmo. Their attorneys pursued a malicious lawsuit against BL, and they were spanked. To put it bluntly. I would love to know if those hours are included in the billable hours that have been presented to the court. Because I am unclear on how pursuing her with no proof absolutely positively no proof for a significantly smaller amount than is owed by other members of the family....well it hardly seems fair that Bob's accounts should take the hit for it.

So I am hoping that all of this begins to make sense. Because seriously, in my complete innocence, I figured that the co conservators were supposed to preserve the assets that Bob carefully grew and invested and planned...the framework was already there. I mean, what else was there to do??

 

[believe09]

See this is where gitana can help me- can the girls spend whatever they want out of whatever account they please? I mean, willy nilly? Can they move money into their own name?

Mrs Harrod agreed to let them take the contents of the house-that insane inventory list. I doubt there has been much double checking on what they did with all of the china and knick knacks.

Obviously, no one is expecting Bob to walk through the door because what would he think when he saw what his daughters had done to his house, and his accounts? I mean clearly none of his family members expected him to return because lets face it, he would have likely been in a rage to see what had happened in his absence.

God this case makes me unbearably sad because Bob seems lost here-he seems secondary to all of the money.

Someone once said to me "When someone says to you it isnt about the money, it is about the money."

 

[mikkismom]

Just my :twocents: FWIW:

My Mama died nearly two years ago, intestate (no will). She was quite the hoarder. While my siblings and I were cleaning, we found over $5000 in cash. We gave it to my stepfather. Whatever was 'hers' was now 'his' - by law.

We donated many things and my mother has lived on because of her 'stuff.' A van FULL of school supplies was given to needy students, art supplies to art students - you get my drift.

The point is that my stepfather (love him!) is her beneficiary - and HE has chosen to bless others with her stuff. Not our (siblings) choice to make.

To this day, I have dreams that my mother is alive and wants to know where her 'stuff' is. In my dreams, she seems okay with it - after I explain what happened.

I know that my Mother lives on through her legacy - what she did before, and after her death. Wonder if Bob's daughters feel the same.

JMO

Reading about this case makes me think of my Mama.

 

[shana]

Hi believe09! All good questions. Some of the answers are contained in Exhibit 2 (the Settlement Agreement) attached to the Objector's Notice, here.

I think that your assumptions re fiduciary responsibility are for the most part correct.

I find that for me, reviewing the docs at the Media Links forum reveals items of interest that I'd overlooked or not paid closer attention to before.

btw, I don't know that it is anyone's business what the daughters did with the personal property once received.

Anxiously awaiting gitana's input on these issues as she can familiarize herself with this case. There's a lot to digest but she's a quick study.

~jmo~

 

[shana]

Just my :twocents: FWIW:

My Mama died nearly two years ago, intestate (no will). She was quite the hoarder. While my siblings and I were cleaning, we found over $5000 in cash. We gave it to my stepfather. Whatever was 'hers' was now 'his' - by law.

We donated many things and my mother has lived on because of her 'stuff.' A van FULL of school supplies was given to needy students, art supplies to art students - you get my drift.

The point is that my stepfather (love him!) is her beneficiary - and HE has chosen to bless others with her stuff. Not our (siblings) choice to make.

To this day, I have dreams that my mother is alive and wants to know where her 'stuff' is. In my dreams, she seems okay with it - after I explain what happened.

I know that my Mother lives on through her legacy - what she did before, and after her death. Wonder if Bob's daughters feel the same.

JMO

Reading about this case makes me think of my Mama.

Hi mikkismom!

Your post brought tears to my eyes. I know *exactly* where you are coming from. I wish you comfort.

~jmo~

 

[SuziQ]

FWIW, money was raised for documents in the Caylee Anthony thread. So hopefully we can do that here. I will definitely contribute.

 

[mikkismom]

Hi mikkismom!

Your post brought tears to my eyes. I know *exactly* where you are coming from. I wish you comfort.

~jmo~

Thanks. Not looking for sympathy. Just what draws me to Bob's thread. I know where my Mama is . I just wish everyone would do the RIGHT thing - no matter what. I don't think I will ever get over it. I just know, when my Mama appears in my dreams - I have an answer for her. It gives me peace.

 

[shana]

Thanks. Not looking for sympathy. Just what draws me to Bob's thread. I know where my Mama is . I just wish everyone would do the RIGHT thing - no matter what. I don't think I will ever get over it. I just know, when my Mama appears in my dreams - I have an answer for her. It gives me peace.

You're welcome. My tears were from empathy, not sympathy. I too was drawn to this case based on my own personal experiences. As well, I want to see the "right thing" done.

I dream about my Mother often and we always have a good time (again). She began giving-away her things decades ago. Many of those which were collected after her death live right here in this room with me, not to mention the garage which is stuffed to the brim. ;-)

Peace.

~jmo~

 

[shefner]

mikkismom and shana...thank you for sharing in such personal ways. Touched my heart. God bless you both...I know your mamas are proud of you.

 

[Allusonz]

This may be unpopular but I am going to urge caution with respect to the value of Mr. Harrods estate. I have a few reasons for this the most important part being that we have not seeing an accounting of assets but more important we have not seen an accounting of liabilities.

I guess what I am not seeing is what was the NET value.

I hope all take this post in the spirit in which it is meant.

 

[Cubby]

This may be unpopular but I am going to urge caution with respect to the value of Mr. Harrods estate. I have a few reasons for this the most important part being that we have not seeing an accounting of assets but more important we have not seen an accounting of liabilities.

I guess what I am not seeing is what was the NET value.

I hope all take this post in the spirit in which it is meant.

Fair enough. I seem to recall reading Mr. Harrods net worth was in the 3.5 million range but I don't recall from where. The number I used, 2 million was a very conservative number. AFAIK Mr. Harrod did not have any liabilities, really other than the financing he provided for his daughters and grandsons homes. But yes, it is certainly fair to see what hard copies of docs we can obtain.

 

[shana]

This may be unpopular but I am going to urge caution with respect to the value of Mr. Harrods estate. I have a few reasons for this the most important part being that we have not seeing an accounting of assets but more important we have not seen an accounting of liabilities.

I guess what I am not seeing is what was the NET value.

I hope all take this post in the spirit in which it is meant.

ITA, and thank you. Net worth is also based on valuations of assets which fluctuate in time. Example: FMV of the home, any stocks or bonds, etc.

(most especially in these economic times)

~jmo~

 

[GrainneDhu]

Then we should expect to see over 1 million in attorney's fee's, no?

Additionally, Mr. Harrod has not been declared deceased, so where has the money gone?

Having read Gitana's links to news stories about the abuse of conservatorships in California, it's clear that attorney's fees are just one possible way to siphon off assets.

The most direct way for assets to disappear is for the conservator(s) to pay themselves administration fees. They can also make all kinds of charges to the estate, say for maintenance, and then receive kickbacks from the service provider.

Funny, in other contexts, I have a feeling that would be called money laundering...

Actually, I'm amazed the girls haven't sucked the estate dry already.

 

[GrainneDhu]

:thud:

Shall we review again who was motivated by greed here?

Perhaps you can weigh in on this, gitana-this appears to be the first time that the co conservators have petitioned the court to pay the attorney fees here. So I have to wonder what has been going on with the last two plus years when it comes to the attorney fees? Have they simply been paid and not petitioned?

The hearing on 7/25 is a request to have Bob's wife pay rent at the marital residence.

Really. Not kidding.

All three daughters and the grandson are married themselves. I wonder if they make their spouses pay rent?

 

[GrainneDhu]

Bob's daughters are petitioning to have his wife pay rent? really.

Their true colors are shining through.

Bob's daughters: :liar: :liar: :liar: All three of them.

I'd like to see the accounting too. I guess we now know the reason for delay after delay after delay after delay.....

Let's see, conservative number 2,000,000.00
minus 864,732.00
___________
That leaves MINIMUM $1,135,268.00

Where has $1,135,268 gone?

I highly doubt $1,135,268 has been spent on attorneys fees.

WHERE IS THE MONEY?????? :furious:

I sometimes wish I could unthink thoughts I have thought.

Out here in the great midwest, that would be more than enough to buy a contract from a pro.

Hypothetically, if that were so, then searching for Bob on land or in the water is useless. His body will have been placed in concrete work somewhere. Given another 100 years, when the concrete needs to be replaced, it may show up.

Please pass me the mental floss.

 

[GrainneDhu]

If anyone lives in the area and is willing to pay for the docs, which, if you just want to see the accounting, should be around 15 bucks or so, let me know. We can meet at the court and I can walk you through how to get them and I can bypass the lines at the filing window with my bar card.

Otherwise, I will try to view the accounting again and look for details. I can write down what they claim they used the money for.

They sure have wasted through funds rapidly, though, if he had over 2 million in accounts when this started. My gosh.

I'm willing to pay but I don't live in the area.

It suddenly occurs to me that at least part of his assets no doubt included the value of the four houses his daughters and grandson live in. Transfer those titles out of Bob's estate to the current residents and that's going to be a pretty good hit on the assets.

How does one go about finding out if this theory is true? I mean, in my state, I would just go to the relevant county's website, plug in the addresses and voila! all would then be clear. But I don't know how California works.

 

[Cubby]

All three daughters and the grandson are married themselves. I wonder if they make their spouses pay rent?

The co-conservators are both divorced. Only daughter JuM and Bob's grandson, AH are married.

Good point though. I wonder if AH's wife pays rent and I wonder if daughter JuM pays her husband rent.

Of course I also wonder if the 1st Mrs. Harrod paid rent.