CANADA Canada - Billionaire Couple Barry & Honey Sherman Murdered at Home, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #24

[FromGermany1]

Are we assuming since the TPS has not asked for help in identifying the two SUV's and the four men, that TPS know who they are, spoke to them and have cleared them?
That is a big assumption.


I had previously proposed that the two SUV's arriving at the Sherman's neighbor's home could have been a feint, to discover the level of security in the area. On a certain level this sounds ridiculous. Why send two vehicles and four men when one car with one man would serve the same purpose?

Maybe four men were needed for some ancillary tasks, such as checking backyards for dogs, checking access and egress points and so on.


I still am trying to figure out what possible benign reason the two SUV's and the four men would have been at the house next door. Were they delivery guys, or tradesmen doing a job? Were they real estate people with clients? How about people distributing flyers or doing solicitations in the area?

Anybody got any ideas?

Four men in two SUVs certainly don't look like someone trying to sneak in or break in. Perhaps this was a clever way to show up and pursue illegal activities, which took an hour and involved everyone of the quartet. MOO

Btw: Had the plane from Japan already landed at that time, when the quartet was seen?

 

[dotr]

Just a thought, but maybe for old times sake, before meeting up on the Thursday night, the friends went for a drive to the house, perhaps to bid a quick hello to the Shermans?
rbbm. speculation.2020

Did someone know Barry and Honey Sherman’s schedule? Close friends were away and they had nothing planned

On the third anniversary of the murders, the Star’s ongoing investigation takes a hard look at the timeline information, including documents released by a Toronto judge last week.

www.thestar.com

''That Thursday night, son Jonathon had a planned dinner with friends from his summer camp days (including friend Josh Scheinert) at the Country Style Hungarian restaurant on Bloor Street in Toronto. Scheinert says the friends grew up with fond memories of the Old Colony house. Another attendee recalls that at the dinner, the old camp friends joked about having one last party at the house, and those at the dinner felt awful when they realized the next day that the Shermans were “lying dead at that time in the house.''

 

[fadedglitter]

Just a thought, but maybe for old times sake, before meeting up on the Thursday night, the friends went for a drive to the house, perhaps to bid a quick hello to the Shermans?
rbbm. speculation.2020

Did someone know Barry and Honey Sherman’s schedule? Close friends were away and they had nothing planned

On the third anniversary of the murders, the Star’s ongoing investigation takes a hard look at the timeline information, including documents released by a Toronto judge last week.

www.thestar.com

''That Thursday night, son Jonathon had a planned dinner with friends from his summer camp days (including friend Josh Scheinert) at the Country Style Hungarian restaurant on Bloor Street in Toronto. Scheinert says the friends grew up with fond memories of the Old Colony house. Another attendee recalls that at the dinner, the old camp friends joked about having one last party at the house, and those at the dinner felt awful when they realized the next day that the Shermans were “lying dead at that time in the house.''

This video is from Wednesday, not Thursday, so it can’t be from right before the dinner.

I don’t think it makes sense to go to the house next door to say goodbye to the Sherman house. When I want to revisit my old home, I go to the property, not to the neighbours’.

The plane from Japan had landed. The infamous “hand photo” was taken soon after this video cuts off.

 

[dotr]

This video is from Wednesday, not Thursday, so it can’t be from right before the dinner.

I don’t think it makes sense to go to the house next door to say goodbye to the Sherman house. When I want to revisit my old home, I go to the property, not to the neighbours’.

The plane from Japan had landed. The infamous “hand photo” was taken soon after this video cuts off.

This video is from Wednesday, not Thursday, so it can’t be from right before the dinner.

I don’t think it makes sense to go to the house next door to say goodbye to the Sherman house. When I want to revisit my old home, I go to the property, not to the neighbours’.

The plane from Japan had landed. The infamous “hand photo” was taken soon after this video cuts off.

Using the word before Thursday, did not make clear that i meant on the Wednesday, not just prior to Thursday's dinner meet up.
Not likely, but possible scenario, maybe some of the former campers were also familiar with the neighbour's house.? complete speculation.

 

[dotr]

If MS had in fact been there with HS on that fateful evening, would it have protected Honey, completely thwart the killer's plans, or would MS likely be another victim? speculation.
2020 rbbm.

Did someone know Barry and Honey Sherman’s schedule? Close friends were away and they had nothing planned

On the third anniversary of the murders, the Star’s ongoing investigation takes a hard look at the timeline information, including documents released by a Toronto judge last week.

www.thestar.com

''Honey was planning to fly to Florida on Monday, with Barry to follow a week later. The time is not recorded in the police documents that have been released, but Honey’s sister Mary told police Honey called her that Wednesday. They spoke briefly as Mary was packing for her trip. “I should have been there to protect her,” Shechtman recently told the Star, saying she wished she had gone over to visit her sister that Wednesday night.''

 

[ldlager]

Story in today’sGlobe and Mail. Here is the headline. Unrelated to the Sherman case, but in some ways unfortunately very similar…….​

​

On a cold trail​

Jennifer Johnson was once well known in the Toronto club scene. After she was found dead in a ravine, police didn’t take basic steps, like examining her phone, for more than a year. By then, her friends had started their own detective work

 

[fadedglitter]

Mary may now wish she had gone over to the house, but at the time that was not one of the options she was considering. Mary told KD that her sister called after the meeting at Apotex and suggested she could swing by on her way home:

“Honey also had a brief call with her sister Mary.

Honey had suggested she drop by Mary's that evening before going home. But Mary was not feeling well, and they decided to catch up in Florida the following week. That haunts Mary to this day.”

From Suspicion: Murder on Mount Olive: S2 The Billionaire Murders | E3 The Day They Died, Apr 14, 2023

S2 The Billionaire Murders | E3 The Day They Died

Podcast Episode · Suspicion: Murder on Mount Olive · S2 E3 · 30m

podcasts.apple.com

This material may be protected by copyright.

 

[ldlager]

Mary may now wish she had gone over to the house, but at the time that was not one of the options she was considering. Mary told KD that her sister called after the meeting at Apotex and suggested she could swing by on her way home:

“Honey also had a brief call with her sister Mary.

Honey had suggested she drop by Mary's that evening before going home. But Mary was not feeling well, and they decided to catch up in Florida the following week. That haunts Mary to this day.”

From Suspicion: Murder on Mount Olive: S2 The Billionaire Murders | E3 The Day They Died, Apr 14, 2023

S2 The Billionaire Murders | E3 The Day They Died

Podcast Episode · Suspicion: Murder on Mount Olive · S2 E3 · 30m

podcasts.apple.com

This material may be protected by copyright.

Yes, MS knew HS was driving home, and she knew when HS would be at home that night

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Random thought—remember the Greenspan team said the front door lock was broken? I just googled it, and checking window and door locks is standard during a home inspection. If the front door lock was broken, the Shermans’ home inspector should have caught that, imo. Maybe the TPS broke it when examining it.

 

[Charlot123]

I'm of two minds on this.

On the one hand, the more fictive part of me says that this crime was contracted out to two or three former military/intelligence types. In this scenario, these contractors are well-organized and have a high sense of self-preservation, so they would not be as sloppy as to incriminate themselves and their procurer by driving up to the house in two separate vehicles right before the crime. In fact, the crime was probably supposed to take place a few days earlier, when the procurer was indisputably out of the country, but the contractors could not find the right window or perhaps had to abort earlier attempts because the timing wasn't right.

On the other hand, based on what KD has hinted about the procurer being present at the murder, this might have been hastily scheduled during the small window when the procurer was back in the country but before Honey and then Barry would leave for Florida. In this scenario, the procurer either wanted to watch the event for sadistic reasons of his own, or was needed to enter the house or get something inside the house (e.g., my theory about getting cash from the house to pay the contractors). This hypothetical would have involved some last-minute re-arranging due to the Shermans' meeting being moved to the office. In this case, the procurers/contractors would have to be smart and effective in some ways (act committed with almost no evidence left) yet pretty stupid in others (driving up to house).

Based on my theories of the crime, I can't rule out the two SUVs being connected, so I'll keep an open mind.

The new information I would need to feel confident that those on the video are not connected s a statement from the police like that they made for the Thursday Visitor: We have identified these people and vehicles, we have talked to them, and we have determined that they are not connected.

(And even then I would still think there was a possibility the police were dissembling for investigative purposes.)

I think that someone who knew the Shermans well was present at the murders. I saw the photo of the infamous dolls/mannequins in the room. And the sketches of the way the bodies were placed. I think that whoever arranged the bodies, had poor opinion of Shermans’ taste and was almost mocking them. Just my personal feeling. So the person may very well realistically have fine taste themselves and know it and also, view the Shermans’ taste as kitschy and gaudy. I can imagine the person saying, “why can’t you hire an interior designer?” to them, and probably, not once.

I don’t have any suspects. I think that Barry being too generous with money and stingy with personal time, as well as lack of consistency in statements and plans for for their wealth, ultimately have played the role. Many people could be expecting a windfall but at the same time were unsure.

 

[FromGermany1]

Mary may now wish she had gone over to the house, but at the time that was not one of the options she was considering. Mary told KD that her sister called after the meeting at Apotex and suggested she could swing by on her way home:

“Honey also had a brief call with her sister Mary.

Honey had suggested she drop by Mary's that evening before going home. But Mary was not feeling well, and they decided to catch up in Florida the following week. That haunts Mary to this day.”

From Suspicion: Murder on Mount Olive: S2 The Billionaire Murders | E3 The Day They Died, Apr 14, 2023

S2 The Billionaire Murders | E3 The Day They Died

Podcast Episode · Suspicion: Murder on Mount Olive · S2 E3 · 30m

podcasts.apple.com

This material may be protected by copyright.

Who knew, that MS could have visited Honey that early evening, but didn't at the end? That she wasn't present at Old Colony (although almost), is important. That Honey indeed invited her to come over, is also important.
There was something, Barry had to take care of this evening, and he therefore planned to return home from work earlier than most times: 9pm instead of 11pm, on Honey's command so-to-say. It always seemed, BS and HS had urgent stuff to clear between them or maybe via phone with a third person. Did they intend to have a crucial conversation together with Mary or at least in the presence of Mary? I can't imagine it, because it wasn't agreed upon in a timely manner. In any case, this discussion between HS and BS (or conversation or whatever it was), was planned already in the afternoon as we know (before inviting MS).

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

Are we assuming since the TPS has not asked for help in identifying the two SUV's and the four men, that TPS know who they are, spoke to them and have cleared them?
That is a big assumption.


I had previously proposed that the two SUV's arriving at the Sherman's neighbor's home could have been a feint, to discover the level of security in the area. On a certain level this sounds ridiculous. Why send two vehicles and four men when one car with one man would serve the same purpose?

Maybe four men were needed for some ancillary tasks, such as checking backyards for dogs, checking access and egress points and so on.


I still am trying to figure out what possible benign reason the two SUV's and the four men would have been at the house next door. Were they delivery guys, or tradesmen doing a job? Were they real estate people with clients? How about people distributing flyers or doing solicitations in the area?

Anybody got any ideas?

I believe LE have had this knowledge all along, it is only new details to us.

If these 4 people and suv are involved I would be surprised. My reasoning; on the Friday the bodies were found, the property was checked, no foot prints were visible in the snow coming in from anywhere on the side or back of the lawn to the house. If four people walk back and forth from the neighbour lawn to Sherman lawn they would have left a path. Lots of snow was on the ground on the Wed night and it was bitterly cold so foot marks in the snow stay in a nice mould and you can see the impression. Even from overhead helicopter pictures of the home of the day they were found, no visible walking paths are evident in the snow.

This would have let LE go with a thought of murder suicide on first glance, IMO, if foot prints were found at any exit / entry point or on the grounds anywhere, that would indicate intruder and the investigation would have started out differently.

A question I have about this video, was the NW on it at anytime, was this in the same timeframe as the NW, when questioned by LE, did any of the 4 people see anything that night and are now considered critical witnesses?

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

Who knew, that MS could have visited Honey that early evening, but didn't at the end? That she wasn't present at Old Colony (although almost), is important. That Honey indeed invited her to come over, is also important.
There was something, Barry had to take care of this evening, and he therefore planned to return home from work earlier than most times: 9pm instead of 11pm, on Honey's command so-to-say. It always seemed, BS and HS had urgent stuff to clear between them or maybe via phone with a third person. Did they intend to have a crucial conversation together with Mary or at least in the presence of Mary? I can't imagine it, because it wasn't agreed upon in a timely manner. In any case, this discussion between HS and BS (or conversation or whatever it was), was planned already in the afternoon as we know (before inviting MS).

I read it that Honey wanted to drop in at Mary’s home, not Mary at OC.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

Random thought—remember the Greenspan team said the front door lock was broken? I just googled it, and checking window and door locks is standard during a home inspection. If the front door lock was broken, the Shermans’ home inspector should have caught that, imo. Maybe the TPS broke it when examining it.

Or someone on the PI team did it?

In the beginning they were brought in to prove it was a double murder, not to necessarily find who did it. Showing a broken lock would indicate break in as a possibility.

 

[fadedglitter]

Addressing a few of the above posts to re-focus on facts as they are known:

There is no indication Honey invited Mary to come over. Honey called Mary and suggested she could drop by Mary’s house; Mary declined. On that evening, Mary was busy packing and feeling unwell. Mary later told KD she wished she had gone to Honey’s.

The broken door lock is not the sort of damage that would be obvious to a casual observer. The damage was to the internal components: it could be opened with most keys or even a screwdriver. A person who walked up and “tried the door” would find it to be locked. Greenspan said this damage might have happened long before the murders.

We do not know if the NW is on this video. Only that there is no video showing the NW entering or exiting the Sherman property. The NW goes into a defined area without video coverage before the murders and leaves afterwards.

Now speculation about the NW on the video: Looking at the approximate angle KD published from Google Street View, it seems the neighbours’ camera captures very little of the Sherman property itself. This is the same video that captured the “Thursday visitor” who walked up to the front door, and I am left confused about how anyone could see the things described from that angle. I accept that however unlikely it seems to me, the neighbours saw the video and I did not, and they saw someone walking to and from the Sherman front door. It therefore seems possible the NW is on this video approaching from the west and passing the west side of the driveway visible from this camera angle. The NW might then have entered the property using the east side of the driveway. Alternatively, he might have left by reversing this route.

I stress that everything in the previous paragraph about the NW’s route is theoretical about a potential route. We do not know that the NW is on this video at all, nor do we know what his route was, except that at one point he was on Old Colony Road.

 

[ldlager]

Addressing a few of the above posts to re-focus on facts as they are known:

There is no indication Honey invited Mary to come over. Honey called Mary and suggested she could drop by Mary’s house; Mary declined. On that evening, Mary was busy packing and feeling unwell. Mary later told KD she wished she had gone to Honey’s.

The broken door lock is not the sort of damage that would be obvious to a casual observer. The damage was to the internal components: it could be opened with most keys or even a screwdriver. A person who walked up and “tried the door” would find it to be locked. Greenspan said this damage might have happened long before the murders.

We do not know if the NW is on this video. Only that there is no video showing the NW entering or exiting the Sherman property. The NW goes into a defined area without video coverage before the murders and leaves afterwards.

Now speculation about the NW on the video: Looking at the approximate angle KD published from Google Street View, it seems the neighbours’ camera captures very little of the Sherman property itself. This is the same video that captured the “Thursday visitor” who walked up to the front door, and I am left confused about how anyone could see the things described from that angle. I accept that however unlikely it seems to me, the neighbours saw the video and I did not, and they saw someone walking to and from the Sherman front door. It therefore seems possible the NW is on this video approaching from the west and passing the west side of the driveway visible from this camera angle. The NW might then have entered the property using the east side of the driveway. Alternatively, he might have left by reversing this route.

I stress that everything in the previous paragraph about the NW’s route is theoretical about a potential route. We do not know that the NW is on this video at all, nor do we know what his route was, except that at one point he was on Old Colony Road.

My impression is that this is not video from the same camera that showed the Thursday visitor. I believe that video would be from a camera located at a house immediately to the east of the house where the “4 men in SUVs” video,was taken. That location would be more directly in line with more of the Sherman’s driveway.

 

[fadedglitter]

I believed that too, but Ann Brocklehurst has confirmed this is the same house. She personally spoke to the people who live there and gave their footage to police. It’s the same camera.

This has really made me re-evaluate the earlier descriptions of the Thursday visitor. I do not see how it is possible to see a vehicle approaching from the east and stopping directly in front of the Sherman house from this angle. Either KD has the angle wrong in Street View, or there are a lot of assumptions being made about the Thursday visitor.

Here’s a CTV report making clear which house it is: Sherman family wants to demolish mansion where Toronto billionaires murdered

 

[WINDSOR]

I believe LE have had this knowledge all along, it is only new details to us.

If these 4 people and suv are involved I would be surprised. My reasoning; on the Friday the bodies were found, the property was checked, no foot prints were visible in the snow coming in from anywhere on the side or back of the lawn to the house. If four people walk back and forth from the neighbour lawn to Sherman lawn they would have left a path. Lots of snow was on the ground on the Wed night and it was bitterly cold so foot marks in the snow stay in a nice mould and you can see the impression. Even from overhead helicopter pictures of the home of the day they were found, no visible walking paths are evident in the snow.

This would have let LE go with a thought of murder suicide on first glance, IMO, if foot prints were found at any exit / entry point or on the grounds anywhere, that would indicate intruder and the investigation would have started out differently.

A question I have about this video, was the NW on it at anytime, was this in the same timeframe as the NW, when questioned by LE, did any of the 4 people see anything that night and are now considered critical witnesses?

Regarding footprints in the snow. Is there a way to obscure, or cover up footprints in the snow?
In my winter experience, if more snow or rain has fallen and/or it has been windy, after a couple of days (Wednesday to Friday) it is not easy to spot specific footprints.

If someone did not want to leave footprints, they could walk on the sidewalk or the street, and avoid walking in the snow to get from one house to another.

IMO the lack of footprints signifies nothing.

 

[Charlot123]

Who knew, that MS could have visited Honey that early evening, but didn't at the end? That she wasn't present at Old Colony (although almost), is important. That Honey indeed invited her to come over, is also important.
There was something, Barry had to take care of this evening, and he therefore planned to return home from work earlier than most times: 9pm instead of 11pm, on Honey's command so-to-say. It always seemed, BS and HS had urgent stuff to clear between them or maybe via phone with a third person. Did they intend to have a crucial conversation together with Mary or at least in the presence of Mary? I can't imagine it, because it wasn't agreed upon in a timely manner. In any case, this discussion between HS and BS (or conversation or whatever it was), was planned already in the afternoon as we know (before inviting MS).

I agree. Together with missing some meetings it does, indeed, seem as if their Shermans life plans had changed and maybe HS wanted M to be present.

At the same time, here is the sister who is very close. Would one show up if asked? What made M refuse? Why did H not insist either?

If H asked to have the meeting in M’s house, even more interesting. She moved the first meeting at Apotex and wanted to have another one in sister’s house.

It is as if she wanted to stay away from her house?

 

[fadedglitter]

Please state your source for Honey inviting Mary to her house.

Please also state your source for Honey wanting to move any meeting to Mary’s house.