Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #16

[CanadianMade]

So here is the 'difficulty' I have with 'a lot of people have said he was nice'. The reality is there were a very very small amount of people who said that.

That small amount is because the media focuses on the negative when looking for information on suspects, and the positives when reporting on victims. Rightfully so, but they also ignore any of the good that might be mentioned about suspects. If you look through some of the claimed social media accounts, or speak with their Actual friends they all say Bryer and Kam were both very nice people.
Of course, they could be manipulative enough to just make people think that, but at this point that is simply speculation based on things we have read in the media.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Yet........"nice people" don't kill 3 people for no reason and run across the country.

Those two things aren't mutually exclusive though. Maybe he was a nice person at one point. And then he became a murderer. It happens all the time. That doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't a genuinely nice person in the past though. People change, especially young people. All of us have the potential for both good and evil. And the transition time between the two can sometimes be fairly short. We contain multitudes, as Walt Whitman said. Like, Matt Paxton from the show Hoarders has this quote that "every one of us is five potential decisions away from [defecating] in a bucket." Now, maybe not every one of us has the potential to become a murderer, but personally I think most murderers had the potential, internally speaking, to have not turned in that direction. JMO.

The "mud guy" - meaning the man in Cold Lake who pulled them out had his story grow from the initial statement. It has been said he kept embellishing the encounter with each passing moment. The original statement was he pulled them out, the encounter was brief. I would not put weight into anything he says other than the initial statement.

Nothing he said in his expanded statement contradicted the original or contradicted other witness accounts. It must have taken some period of time to pull them out of the mud, so it's not that out of the realm of possibility that they had some interactions...it would be weirder if they didn't. Also keep in mind when he made his original statement, they had not been found dead yet. He likely thought he might be called to testify and so didn't put in much detail into his original statement. Personally, I'm not going to doubt his account unless there's really good reason to doubt it.

 

[sandbar]

Yet........"nice people" don't kill 3 people for no reason and run across the country.

People say the stoopidest things. I've heard victims of extortion say things like "... he was nice about it, he only broke one of my legs." or victims of domestic assault say similar things. The word "nice" is both over-used and meaningless. Has anyone seen anything about Kam or Bryer that says what they did to be considered "nice"? Like volunteering with seniors, at a hospital, day care? Actions speak louder than words, IMO

Or perhaps the people who described them as "nice", need to use a thesaurus...

 

[CanadianMade]

People say the stoopidest things. I've heard victims of extortion say things like "... he was nice about it, he only broke one of my legs." or victims of domestic assault say similar things. The word "nice" is both over-used and meaningless. Has anyone seen anything about Kam or Bryer that says what they did to be considered "nice"? Like volunteering with seniors, at a hospital, day care? Actions speak louder than words, IMO

Or perhaps the people who described them as "nice", need to use a thesaurus...

I don't think anyone has said what they may have done is 'nice'. They are speaking in reference to the people they knew them to be. It's not like people are running around saying 'kam and bryer are such nice guys for possibly killing 3 people'.

 

[MistyWaters]

That's very interesting! I have seen a news article, will have to find later, that claimed 11 PM-7 am shifts for them, but they didn't cite a source for that info.

Most Walmart’s are open 7am to 11pm. Then the night shift crew restocks the shelves overnight when the store is closed. It’s not a much sought after job especially due to the hours and min wage pay therefore every Walmart in every town has frequent openings.

 

[KR72]

Are you in a city or town? I bet whether Walmart sells ammo and the types they carry are to meet local needs. I'm in Turrono and I'm going to ask too.

Well, back from Walmart and no ammo anywhere. The only hunting related things they had were some camo hoodies and overalls. Of course I'm only speaking about the one Walmart I visited, there are several others here in the city.

People say the stoopidest things. I've heard victims of extortion say things like "... he was nice about it, he only broke one of my legs." or victims of domestic assault say similar things. The word "nice" is both over-used and meaningless. Has anyone seen anything about Kam or Bryer that says what they did to be considered "nice"? Like volunteering with seniors, at a hospital, day care? Actions speak louder than words, IMO

Or perhaps the people who described them as "nice", need to use a thesaurus...

The thing about nice is that it's relative. Some people thought Bruce McArthur was nice too. He probably was too, to people he didn't want to murder that is.

 

[sandbar]

I don't think anyone has said what they may have done is 'nice'. They are speaking in reference to the people they knew them to be. It's not like people are running around saying 'kam and bryer are such nice guys for possibly killing 3 people'.

I hear that, and I don't disagree. I guess I think there are kind of robotic words like "nice", "fine", and maybe "evil" that are both relative in meaning and can be used as placeholders --mouth sounds we make when we don't know what to say, or don't want/can't tell the truth.

We also don't know what those witnesses said that didn't make the news.

 

[MistyWaters]

Yet........"nice people" don't kill 3 people for no reason and run across the country.

IIRC most of the non-family people who commented to the media were interviewed early on, when the two were first discovered missing. At that time it was possible there were 5 victims of a mass murderer.

 

[Optics]

Nothing he said in his expanded statement contradicted the original or contradicted other witness accounts. It must have taken some period of time to pull them out of the mud, so it's not that out of the realm of possibility that they had some interactions...it would be weirder if they didn't. Also keep in mind when he made his original statement, they had not been found dead yet. He likely thought he might be called to testify and so didn't put in much detail into his original statement. Personally, I'm not going to doubt his account unless there's really good reason to doubt it.

I don't know how often in your life you've been in a situation where a vehicle had to be pulled out of a small mud spot such as where their vehicle was, but it doesn't take long at all. <modsnip: not based on MSM sources>

 

[OldFarmer]

Almost all of the witness accounts have been reported differently in one way or another. One report says one thing and the next says the opposite, so either the media is incredibly confused or people have changed their stories for each interview. Hasn't been much help other than for those who want to focus only on certain reports to fit their own theory.
This whole thing has been a mess. I've given up on all media at this point. I'll read it, but the next article is completely different so I'm just waiting for the official RCMP report now.

That’s a really good point (and a really good plan). Also, us armchair sleuths are vacillating all over the place too.

Someone in a thread or two above said that we tend to see this case according to our own world view. Which is a very good point I think, very wise.

There seem to be three general theories on here:

1. They didn’t do it, they’re being framed, there’s a third man involved. This one just seems too far-fetched, imo.
2. This was a robbery gone bad, their resultant actions being terror at the realization of what they did. They’re not really bad kids deep down, they’re just products of a bad environment. I appreciate the idealism behind this one, and I get it - but I don’t necessarily buy it.
3. They’re thrill killers and this was a preplanned event. I don’t totally buy this one either, though I guess I’m sort of leaning in this general direction. I suspect that at least one of them really was a bad kid, all the way down, regardless of his past environment. But who the heck knows.
4. Edited to add: see theory #4 below

I do think that one of the reasons this case is so compelling is that we don’t have a known reason for their actions, there are no answers - it’s an unsolved (and probably unsolvable) mystery - which is unsettling.

 

[NJSleuth91]

I hear that, and I don't disagree. I guess I think there are kind of robotic words like "nice", "fine", and maybe "evil" that are both relative in meaning and can be used as placeholders --mouth sounds we make when we don't know what to say, or don't want/can't tell the truth.

But, also, why would you be friends with someone if you didn't think they were nice? I think it's a total non-issue that Kam's friends saw him as a nice, normal person. That doesn't mean they agree with what he and Bryer did. But they're allowed to have their memories and opinions on what he was like in the past.

 

[MistyWaters]

Well, back from Walmart and no ammo anywhere. The only hunting related things they had were some camo hoodies and overalls. Of course I'm only speaking about the one Walmart I visited, there are several others here in the city.

Google indicates in Canada the requirements to buy ammunition is the same as required to buy guns - a PAL. That makes sense to me, why would anybody require ammunition if they weren’t licensed to possess a weapon?

In Canada I’d be very shocked if any Walmart sells ammunition for that same reason. Their market is family-related low cost merchandise focusing on groceries, kids and clothing, not hunters.

Some rural Co-ops do however and maybe that’s why the two looked dejected, maybe even nervously embarrassed, on their way out of the Meadow Lake Hardware store. Two young men attempting to buy ammunition who aren’t aware of licensing regulations would certainly mark the memory of somebody who might’ve later given the tip to the RCMP.

ETA link -
“The Possession Only Licence (POL) is now the Possession and Acquisition Licence (PAL). A PAL or a confirmed Non-Resident Firearm Declaration or a Temporary Firearms Borrowing Licence (for non-residents) is needed to purchase firearms and ammunition in Canada.”
Things you should know about Canadian gun, ammunition ownership

 

[NJSleuth91]

That’s a really good point (and a really good plan). Also, us armchair sleuths are vacillating all over the place too.

Someone in a thread or two above said that we tend to see this case according to our own world view. Which is a very good point I think, very wise.

There seem to be three general theories on here:

1. They didn’t do it, they’re being framed, there’s a third man involved. This one just seems too far-fetched, imo.
2. This was a robbery gone bad, their resultant actions being terror at the realization of what they did. They’re not really bad kids deep down, they’re just products of a bad environment. I appreciate the idealism behind this one, and I get it - but I don’t necessarily buy it.
3. They’re thrill killers and this was a preplanned event. I don’t totally buy this one either, though I guess I’m sort of leaning in this general direction. I suspect that at least one of them really was a bad kid, all the way down, regardless of his past environment. But who the heck knows.

I do think that one of the reasons this case is so compelling is that we don’t have a known reason for their actions, there are no answers - it’s an unsolved (and probably unsolvable) mystery - which is unsettling.

Personally I'm not trying to base my opinions on this case according to my worldview (plus, you're assuming I have an ideologically consistent worldview LOL). I mean, I'm sure they are to some extent, because everyone's opinions are. But that's why I've been posting research about the root causes of violence and things like that. So it's not just some random person on the internet saying stuff, it's actually backed up by some degree of evidence.

Also I think your actions make you a "bad person" regardless of external factors. Like, yes, external factors negatively influenced them to some extent to become killers. The research indicates that is generally the case. However, there's not really a thing about "they're not really bad people deep down." Because they did this, they are bad people. Now I think it didn't always have to be that way, they weren't always "destined to be evil," and with one or two factors changed, this never would have happened. And that's based on both my personal feelings about the case, and the research I've been doing. But, it happened, and it can't be taken back.

<modsnip: quoted post was modsnipped>

 

[SovereignSnake]

Honestly, as soon as he changed his story to include the sleeping bag(only after one had been spotted out near Gillam...one that RCMP hasn't even acknowledged), I stopped believing a word he says.

Same, I heard nothing about Tommy Ste-Croix seeing a sleeping bag hanging, drying on the fence in Cold Lake in his report until Clint Sawchuck discovered a blue sleeping bag on the side of the river. But, as I understand it, it was not in the vicinity of where the boys' bodies were found or the boat. The sleeping bag was all the way down by Port Nelson at the literal mouth of the Nelson River. This sleeping bag, if it was indeed Kam and Bryer's, has been the adventure of a lifetime. I get that it's entirely possible it floated on down river but my goodness... Also, Tommy Ste-Croix said he saw a photo of this sleeping bag put out by the media. Has anyone been able to verify this? I've searched high and low and can't find anything.

 

[CanadianMade]

That’s a really good point (and a really good plan). Also, us armchair sleuths are vacillating all over the place too.

Someone in a thread or two above said that we tend to see this case according to our own world view. Which is a very good point I think, very wise.

There seem to be three general theories on here:

1. They didn’t do it, they’re being framed, there’s a third man involved. This one just seems too far-fetched, imo.
2. This was a robbery gone bad, their resultant actions being terror at the realization of what they did. They’re not really bad kids deep down, they’re just products of a bad environment. I appreciate the idealism behind this one, and I get it - but I don’t necessarily buy it.
3. They’re thrill killers and this was a preplanned event. I don’t totally buy this one either, though I guess I’m sort of leaning in this general direction. I suspect that at least one of them really was a bad kid, all the way down, regardless of his past environment. But who the heck knows.

I do think that one of the reasons this case is so compelling is that we don’t have a known reason for their actions, there are no answers - it’s an unsolved (and probably unsolvable) mystery - which is unsettling.

Theory #4. They didn't kill all 3 victims and the one they did kill was not initially intentional. The media and public told hold of specific things that would help make them look like they were on some sort of spree(or serial killers because that's such a great story and all) and blew it all out of the water which is what turned it all into a massive manhunt....and a hashtag.
It also created all sorts of chaos for RCMP. In Ontario alone they had hundreds of tips and had to create a task force to sift through them all, and they were never even in Ontario.

 

[FactFinder3000]

Google indicates in Canada the requirements to buy ammunition is the same as required to buy guns - a PAL. That makes sense to me, why would anybody require ammunition if they weren’t licensed to possess a weapon?

In Canada I’d be very shocked if any Walmart sells ammunition for that same reason. Their market is family-related low cost merchandise focusing on groceries, kids and clothing, not hunters.

Some rural Co-ops do however and maybe that’s why the two looked dejected, maybe even nervously embarrassed, on their way out of the Meadow Lake Hardware store. Two young men attempting to buy ammunition who aren’t aware of licensing regulations would certainly mark the memory of somebody who might’ve later given the tip to the RCMP.

ETA link -
“The Possession Only Licence (POL) is now the Possession and Acquisition Licence (PAL). A PAL or a confirmed Non-Resident Firearm Declaration or a Temporary Firearms Borrowing Licence (for non-residents) is needed to purchase firearms and ammunition in Canada.”
Things you should know about Canadian gun, ammunition ownership

This has been previously discussed in a huge way. Walmarts in Canada definitely sell ammo. Perhaps not every one, but it seems most of them do.

 

[SovereignSnake]

Theory #4. They didn't kill all 3 victims and the one they did kill was not initially intentional. The media and public told hold of specific things that would help make them look like they were on some sort of spree(or serial killers because that's such a great story and all) and blew it all out of the water which is what turned it all into a massive manhunt....and a hashtag.
It also created all sorts of chaos for RCMP. In Ontario alone they had hundreds of tips and had to create a task force to sift through them all, and they were never even in Ontario.

This has remained my theory from the very beginning. Even after reading through all the great comments, theories and reports that have been submitted here, I'm still not convinced the boys killed Lucas Fowler and Chynna Deese. I do however think they had some kind of encounter turned dispute with Leonard Dyck the night of the 18th/19th and it got out of control and they unintentionally killed him. Their behavior and decisions after they stole the RAV and fled tells me the killing of Leonard Dyck absolutely terrified those boys to their core. I don't think they could even handle one death, let alone three. All the encounters I've read of those who came in contact with Kam and Bryer after the fact just reeks of: shame, paranoia, panic and apathy.

 

[FactFinder3000]

There are threads like this all over the internet:
Walmart stores that sell ammunition - Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum

Also, here's a quote from the National Post:

“There is a set cap limit on what they can produce,” said Blair Hagen, executive vice-president of Canada’s National Firearms Association. “So, there’s a lot of hoarding going on in Canada. People are waiting outside places like Walmart and Canadian Tire to purchase mass quantities, keeping it for themselves or reselling it.”

Canadian gun owners hoard bullets in face of feared shortage of ammunition from U.S.

 

[MistyWaters]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

If it’s true the two were stuck for at least 2 hours before this guy at Cold Lake pulled them out, I think it’d be really odd if they were described as carefree and relaxed given at that point in time only they knew they were fleeing three homicides in a stolen vehicle. On July 21st the rest of the world only knew they were declared missing.

For some reason they didn’t just call a tow truck but I’d guess that’s because they feared the registration on the RAV4 might get checked, linking them to the Professor. While it ended up working in their favour that it took awhile for the RCMP to identify his body, K&B had no control over that or when the alert for his stolen car would be put out.

I’m not so sure I believe the witness’s entire memory, particularly about them giving him their real names because he only told his story after the two were already named suspects following the RCMP releasing information regarding Meadow Lake sighting. By then he knew their actual names but prior to that he would’ve had no reason to remember who they claimed to be. Had their behaviour been suspiciously terrified, he only would’ve had to google their names (if they gave him their real names) and it would’ve led him directly to the BC’s missing persons report, which he apparently didn’t do.

 

[OldFarmer]

Personally I'm not trying to base my opinions on this case according to my worldview (plus, you're assuming I have an ideologically consistent worldview LOL). I mean, I'm sure they are to some extent, because everyone's opinions are. But that's why I've been posting research about the root causes of violence and things like that. So it's not just some random person on the internet saying stuff, it's actually backed up by some degree of evidence.

Also I think your actions make you a "bad person" regardless of external factors. Like, yes, external factors negatively influenced them to some extent to become killers. The research indicates that is generally the case. However, there's not really a thing about "they're not really bad people deep down." Because they did this, they are bad people. Now I think it didn't always have to be that way, they weren't always "destined to be evil," and with one or two factors changed, this never would have happened. And that's based on both my personal feelings about the case, and the research I've been doing. But, it happened, and it can't be taken back.
.

Yes, for sure I’ve noticed the studies you’ve posted on here and I appreciate your perspective. And I’m not accusing you of defending these individuals at all. You’re trying to understand them, just as we are all.

But remember, theories in psychology change dramatically. When I was studying psychology, many long years ago, the idea was that psychopaths are a result of their environment. A decade later, experts decided that psychopathy is a purely physiological abnormality - it’s related to a low level of cortical arousal that’s so uncomfortable that the individual needs extreme stimulation (like killing someone) in order to feel comfortable. (The same goes for schizophrenics, the shizophrenogenic mother being considered the cause when I was studying psychology, but now it’s seen as a physiological abnormality.) I stopped paying attention awhile back, so I don’t know what the experts are saying about the origins of psychopathy now. But I’d bet my farm that the experts have vacillated a few times since then, and will continue to vacillate in the future.

Psychology is such a terribly soft science, you’ll easily find theories and studies and experts to support just about anything you want. Trends come and go, the studies that support those trends are supported or refuted and mostly forgotten, and over the years theories tend to swing like pendulums in a stiff wind.