Deceased/Not Found CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #55 *ARREST*

[ilovechili]

You have yet to see a trial, because there hasn’t been one yet.

In the Mackenzie Lueck case, the killer burned her body, and ultimately deposited it in another location.

Something like that probably took place here. There simply wasn’t the time to burn her to an extent that she would be effectively cremated.

That doesn’t change the fact that an accelerant and burned plastic was found. That fire happened.

Clean up teams don’t overcharge if they effectively clean up crime scenes. KK didn’t do it effectively, not according to Slater’s court testimony.

Clearly her nursing skills helped her with this, as the cleanup was effective enough in the sense that the CBI missed it at first.

They found that blood though, exactly where she said it would be.

The justice system is based on a system of laws. Hate for a vile person doesn’t mean they are a killer. Evidence and facts do that.

The evidence and facts point to PF, and not KK as the one who swung the bat.

If she wasn’t there, she wasn’t there.

He’s on trial for murder, not her.

I know he is on trial and she is not. Good I guess that you informed others though. I have no hate but for one person and it is not anyone here. Now disgust is a different story KK and PF disgust me. In their 30s and acting like they are in some crazy soap opera however, a real mother ends up DEAD.

Yes, perhaps a fire of something happened at some point in time. Would you like to know how many bonfires we have had and how frequently and the sizes? Hard to say what they burned or when. Hopefully there is a neighbor that saw flames and Ma too.

The fact PF swung the bat comes from KK.

I give her no credence, I await all of the corroboration at trial.

As for knowing there has not been a trial, I am the one doing the countdown so I do know there has not been one yet.

Peace man.

 

[PommyMommy]

"Sufficient?" What exactly is sufficient? In the Jessica O'Grady trial, the drenched mattress and drywall were actually brought into the courtroom. I seriously doubt a "sufficient" amount of blood was found in the condo because KK claimed she cleaned it up.....or it was never there to begin with. In the O'Grady case, the defendant was convicted of second degree murder. They also found the weapon. There is no weapon recovered in this case.

The arrest affidavit really doesn't mention any blood other than the blood in the bathroom found by KB's mother that tested positive to be KB's. It mentions what KK claimed she cleaned up but it doesn't indicate any of it tested positive to belong to KB. The arrest warrant makes it abundantly clear it is based on the evidence obtained from the cell phones and interviews with KK's friends as well as with KK, the inconsistencies and the bloody scene she claimed she cleaned, item #68--70.

https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/04th_Judicial_District/Teller/caseofinterest/2018CR330/Application and Affidavit for Arrest Warrant.pdf
Affidavit reveals how investigators used cellphone evidence to arrest Patrick Frazee

BBM

suf·fi·cient
/səˈfiSHənt/
adjective · determiner
adjective: sufficient; determiner: sufficient

1. enough; adequate.
   "a small income that was sufficient for her needs"

 

[PommyMommy]

The trial is scheduled to begin one month from now. What about that partial tooth sent for consumptive DNA testing?

Carol McKinley on Twitter
NEW: Consumptive testing on a human tooth found on #patrickfrazee's property is halfway finished. That testing is being done by the FBI. Motions hearing is over for today. EXTRA: Defense must let the court know if they are going to use an alternate suspect defense by 9/16. @ABC
10:54 AM 23-Aug-2019

 

[ilovechili]

My comment was that I’ve never seen a trial delayed because it might stretch into a holiday.

It’s not like they’re going to be in the courtroom on Thanksgiving Day.

If this trial is delayed, it won’t be because of the baking schedule of the jury.

I don't know about trial but I can give you a whole lot of reasons for delays of hearings and other court proceedings, 9.9 times by the defense... It truly bites for the victims.

I think the point is more about whether this will go to trial this month or not and when it will conclude.

However, that is jmo.

 

[ilovechili]

My comment was that I’ve never seen a trial delayed because it might stretch into a holiday.

It’s not like they’re going to be in the courtroom on Thanksgiving Day.

If this trial is delayed, it won’t be because of the baking schedule of the jury.

Tis true but shopping is required and turkeys take a day to defrost at least if you do it correctly. Why is everyone naming Thanksgiving dishes by the way? I must have missed something I guess... Oh well. I have fresh wild rice if anyone wants it but only if I am invited... lol.

Baking was to do with Christmas, I guess I was not clear or something was missed.

I see the trial going next year not this year, but who knows, I just do not see the reason that remark was attacked by almost everyone and I was not the poster.

All jmo of course.

 

[MsBetsy]

Tis true but shopping is required and turkeys take a day to defrost at least if you do it correctly. Why is everyone naming Thanksgiving dishes by the way? I must have missed something I guess... Oh well. I have fresh wild rice if anyone wants it but only if I am invited... lol.

Baking was to do with Christmas, I guess I was not clear or something was missed.

I see the trial going next year not this year, but who knows, I just do not see the reason that remark was attacked by almost everyone and I was not the poster.

All jmo of course.

Kelsey was planning on making a sweet potato casserole for PF on the day she was murdered.
Maybe that's where it's coming from.

 

[ilovechili]

shame kk didn't have to give up KBs body or remains for that kinda leniency .
let her family have her back. it was the LEAST she could do.

she doesn't know where she is.........
(maybe the river??? maybe the dump???clear as mud. helpful as on a bull.)

and pigs might fly too.

I so agree. By the way pigs do fly though. I bought one at my local fireworks store, about $5.00, thought it would be a dud of a firework but it squealed and flew until it deflated and fell to the ground.

KK may fly too. Well in October.

Just a little lightness. Yah, she got a sweet deal and the Bs do not even have their daughter to bury.

Jmo though.

 

[ilovechili]

BBM. Not so. MT's cooperating because she's repeatedly been slapped with charges. I consider it an incredibly solid comparison so we'll agree to disagree.

I wish the DA in the Frazee case much luck in persuading 12 jurors that KK has told the truth and nothing but the truth and that's why he cut a sweet deal with her before local LE even knew what she had to say.

JMO

In a third police interview conducted in August with Troconis under “pointed questioning” from state police detectives, she contradicted her earlier statements, admitting she was at the home where Dulos cleaned the red Toyota truck state police allege was used to transport Farber Dulos’ body out of New Canaan. Troconis also acknowledged that she was aware Dulos had the truck washed and detailed a few days later.


The new details about Dulos’ activities and Troconis’ admissions are contained in arrest warrants released this week following new charges.

Michelle Troconis, the girlfriend of Fotis Dulos, goes from possible alibi to key witness against her boyfriend in his estranged wife’s disappearance

In my opinion, the Dulos case has a prosecution that is playing one exceptional game of chess.

I hope it is the same in this case but it remains to be seen and I do not have the same confidence, they caved quickly it seems.

Maybe Jennifer's children and mother will be fortunate enough to have remains to bury.

One can hope.

Exceptional post MB.

Jmo.

 

[ilovechili]

If you read that second arrest warrant and believe she is being truthful, then I think you’re in the minority. She’s still lying.

She does not have nearly as much to offer as KK did here.

It won’t be hard to convince the jury that KK is telling the truth, for two reasons:

She threw herself under the bus, admitting to crimes that law enforcement would have never discovered.

Most importantly, her account is corroborated by physical evidence.

They found blood where she said it would be.

They found melted plastic and an accelerant at the location of that fire.

They found stains on the hay at that body storage site.

Juries believe liars when the evidence supports their account. This literally happens all the time.

They are both liars and probably accomplices as are the men in both cases--imo of course.

MT rode along for the evidence dumping ride at minimum.

KK drove along on her own, allegedly for the evidence dumping.

I see all four as liars. We KNOW KK and PF lied.

MT thought she could get a deal like KK me thinks but she is in another state who watched probably the opinion of KK going almost free (and is to date) and decided not to do that and are playing the long game for the win.

They both are accomplices and entirely involved and aware--again imo. All for trying to land a man who was evil as well.

In the Dulos case, there were alibi notes.

I think there may be a contest going on for dumbest perps...

Edited to clarify.

 

[ilovechili]

New to this case and can certainly understand everyone's frustration here on this thread. What a terrible crime. The meticulous work done on the time lines is so impressive. @Gardener1850 and @Tippy Lynn - what a labor of love for Kelsey.

Most of us follow so many cases closely, but this one is one of the worst. It feels like it could happen to anyone, that Kelsey had no way of seeing it coming and I struggle to even begin to fathom PF's psychology (and I have done research in jails, prisons and, especially, mental hospitals for the criminally insane). I can't even venture a guess as to the causes of his psychopathology.

How does a man even come up with such a plan? Cruel and brutal as he is, he is also one of the stupidest criminals I've ever read about. Stupid and violent and completely without remorse or even (to me) any kind of motive that makes sense. I'd hate to be one of his jailers and I bet he doesn't get along well with others in jail (and will not fare well in prison, either). So many antisocial personality types are much smarter. I keep thinking that he rode a long way on his "looks" and that is going to be the opposite of what he needs in prison.

"Plan" should have been in quotes.

I'm sure you all have discussed all of this to death in the many threads. I think KK is insane as well and was either the primary "planner" or at least, very much an instigator.

I'm about to give up on trying to understand humans. Surely these people are not the same species as the rest of us.

Please weigh in on the fire, length of time, accelerant, plastic tote, balls, remains and what should be found even if remains are moved.

I read your thoughts on that on the Lueck case with interest.

To me, the fire is one of the issues and not the total truth at minimum. No way, no how.

Jmo.

 

[gitana1]

I know he is on trial and she is not. Good I guess that you informed others though. I have no hate but for one person and it is not anyone here. Now disgust is a different story KK and PF disgust me. In their 30s and acting like they are in some crazy soap opera however, a real mother ends up DEAD.

Yes, perhaps a fire of something happened at some point in time. Would you like to know how many bonfires we have had and how frequently and the sizes? Hard to say what they burned or when. Hopefully there is a neighbor that saw flames and Ma too.

The fact PF swung the bat comes from KK.

I give her no credence, I await all of the corroboration at trial.

As for knowing there has not been a trial, I am the one doing the countdown so I do know there has not been one yet.

Peace man.

Does anyone believe a political office like the DA would bring murder charges against someone in a difficult to win no body case, solely on the say so of a possible culprit, without corroboration that the possible culprit could not have been the murderer?

 

[PommyMommy]

Does anyone believe a political office like the DA would bring murder charges against someone in a difficult to win no body case, solely on the say so of a possible culprit, without corroboration that the possible culprit could not have been the murderer?

NOPE, not me. MOO

 

[ilovechili]

The dates ARE very confusing:

1. LE searched the condo from Thursday December 6 through Wednesday December 12, 2018.
(SW 18-106, Report of Execution)
2. The FBI first interviewed KKL in Las Vegas on Friday December 14, 2018. In the Arrest Affidavit, Attachment A, Page 5, Item 34. LE summarized this interview as:
"During this interview, in short, L** provided materially false and misleading information during that recorded interview."
3. On Monday December 17, 2018 during a confrontation at KK's residence, she agreed to make a statement, but not at that time. (Arrest Affidavit, Attachment A, Page 5, Item 43)
4. On Thursday December 20, 2018 KK did give a statement, in Colorado Springs. (Arrest Affidavit, Attachment A, Page 7, Item 60)
5. On Friday December 21 , 2018 PF was arrested, and KKL visited KB's condo, the franchette, and the Nash ranch barn, while giving a running statement to CBI Investigator Greg Slater, in five hours. She told Inspector Slater that she had deliberately left blood spatter in certain areas, for them to find. (Sam Kraemer courtroom tweets, February 19, 2018 @2:04 pm)
https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/04th_Judicial_District/Teller/caseofinterest/2018CR330/002/18-106 Execution.pdf
https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/04th_Judicial_District/Teller/caseofinterest/2018CR330/Application and Affidavit for Arrest Warrant.pdf

That is far closer to what I thought.

You know allegedly LE has no video of KK at KB's so it is anyone's guess of when she cleaned up if she did. If her date is false, it may explain the lack of video and of PF with a tote as well...

But then maybe they do have it and more on that--I thought they were flat out asked at preliminary though...

Anyhow by now the defense should have it all as well, every bit of discovery right?

Jmo.

 

[Love Never Fails]

Does anyone believe a political office like the DA would bring murder charges against someone in a difficult to win no body case, solely on the say so of a possible culprit, without corroboration that the possible culprit could not have been the murderer?

It is my understanding, and you can clear this up for me since I am not an attorney, that a DA brings a case because of evidence collected. No? There have been some questions about collection of evidence by WPPD.

 

[ilovechili]

The plan was to get away with murder. Planting evidence is the exact opposite of making it appear that Kelsey went off and killed herself.

Those phone records with fake texts and phone calls, make it clear that was the goal.

Logically, it makes no sense.

Practically, how does one even go about doing that:

Where did the blood come from?

How did she generate blood splatter and get it under the floorboards?

Why did she clean it up so well that law enforcement initially missed it?

Why did she want to implicate herself in a crime?

Why did she want to ruin her life?

This makes sense on no level.

They thought they were home free. Someone else came in and killed her. KK was not seen on video. No tote was with PF. They wanted to put a stranger's crime scene there and strange male DNA and a few drops of blood. Clean up but when looking closer and pointed out, they will have LE find what they want them to find.

However, KK and PF expected them to believe a different scenario, maybe a bf, etc. and it backfired.

I don't believe this one bit but thought I would offer a scenario. So do not put words in my mouth please that I think it was what happened. However, it makes a bit more sense than some of KK's allegations.

These two discussed for months how to do this and get away with it. That alone does not make it that far fetched...

And right now is the first time this ever crossed my mind so I guess the very denial by some of some things that are hard to believe starts it as does the belief in some things that only come from KK...

Imo.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Does anyone believe a political office like the DA would bring murder charges against someone in a difficult to win no body case, solely on the say so of a possible culprit, without corroboration that the possible culprit could not have been the murderer?

Not hardly, and not to mention that PF was arrested and detained on a no bond sealed affidavit. No Judge would agree to that either without 'substantial' compelling evidence of guilt.

Just my humble opinion, IANAL

 

[ilovechili]

Reportedly, PF approached KK three different times with requests that she murder KB.

I'm not sure which is worse, that he asked, or that KK actually gave him the opportunity to ask two additional times!

Why would she still be talking to him after the first request?

And then went to clean up after he did it even later on? She is also bold enough to refuse to take the body and says that to PF (so not scared of him as she claims but instead comes running instead of staying in ID with her ex and kids and safety) but takes the phone, the gun, etc. What?? I do NOT buy it.

I mean I am sorry, but this kind of stuff is going to stretch the belief of some... If you get a snitch, it is far better if they tell the entire truth because caught in any lie or certainly more than one on the stand, oh boy...

She is likely being coached as we speak for hours a day (if this is to go off in October) and if she listens will come in as a demure looking, yes sir, no sir, softspoken woman WITHOUT a Starbucks in her hand.

Imo I think there is a very good chance KK did take KB's remains. I sure hope her true vehicle was determined, and that it was the only one on the trip, no meeting, changing, etc, she was the only person, video has been found and vehicles outside of Colorado were searched and all of those bases were covered.

She may not be on trial but questions will be asked and I hope they are covered... Big time.

Jmo.

 

[ilovechili]

Interesting. Well, a nurse was hired by a facility here, and promptly fired when the news publicized about her felony conviction for elder abuse! WTH?!

Yah, someone else said it on here, maybe they can chime in. She is registered in more than a few states and allegedly just renewed, despite her own confessions and admission of a felony. I disagree with this as well--welcome to our world I guess. She just gets away peachy keen with everything...

Jmo.

 

[ilovechili]

“Sufficient” in the sense that it corroborated KK’s account.

More detail was provided during the preliminary hearing.

No matter how much blood was found, it almost certainly wasn’t in a quantity that by itself, proved Kelsey was dead.

But enough blood was found to make it apparent that Kelsey was in fact attacked there.

With everything else, it will show that she was murdered there.

She may well have been attacked here, I agree with you. Attacked also does not mean dead necessarily.

In fact more than once and who knows when over her time in her condo.

PF kind of seems like that type of bf/fiance to me and I can picture KK as quite the slugger too.

I wonder if they were going for the same notoriety we and name recognition we all know as two who were named Bonnie and Clyde...

Jmo.

 

[ilovechili]

Oops! Posted by error, agree WPPD didn’t investigate thoroughly!
Have heard through the local grapevine some are no longer with the department

I have heard that too. I think it can be confirmed in fact by checking with the department, I highly recommend it. Some key people--poof--gone.