Deceased/Not Found CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #55 *ARREST*

[MassGuy]

I didn't say I agreed with her. Not at all. For some reason that poster believes facts and evidence are one and the same and you do as well. They are not. A jury decides what evidence is credible.

That poster said: I promise you the Police do not go over theories as you propose. Police theories are based on the facts available to them.

I provided a link to a media report about this case that supports that police DO develop theories based on evidence and it is not unusual as the case unfolds that the theory changes. I think everyone here agrees, this case did not involve a robbery which was an initial theory proposed by DA Dan May.

JMO

This is splitting hairs.

The point is that theories are developed based on the evidence, and not just pulled out of thin air (like the hitman assertion).

 

[MsBetsy]

my biggest beef with kk's deal is why why why the no doubt watered down (who me??) self admitted version of her conspiracy attempts on KB not enough to charge her with stuff......

BUT we know, this info didn't come to light till she had her deal firmly in place.
two points on that imo LE were screwed over by her and her excellent legal representation LE hate the ***** I am sure but they know she didn't physically kill Kelsey and have let all that slide for honesty and proof of statements and accusations .

the second.... my guess LE EXPECTED a body from KKs deal.

and that.......makes me very mad.

just my gut feelings about why when we know what we know happened what happened......u know u know?? lol

I think her version of the attempts to kill Kelsey WERE enough for LE to charge her.
But they offered her a plea deal instead.
They must have known about her story and version of events before they agreed on the deal because we knew about the solicitation charges before we ever heard her name. Imo

 

[MemPat]

This is splitting hairs.

The point is that theories are developed based on the evidence, and not just pulled out of thin air.

That’s as simple as I can make it.

A funny scene just flashed into my mind:

It's DA May at the Frazee trial with a five foot high stack of folders in front of him.

He's picked up about ten so far and flipped through them, spouting a few "theories" from each.

With the last one he says, "Okay, jurors, if you don't believe that alien one, how about this?! Moving on......"

 

[k-mac]

I think her version of the attempts to kill Kelsey WERE enough for LE to charge her.
But they offered her a plea deal instead.
They must have known about her story and version of events before they agreed on the deal because we knew about the solicitation charges before we ever heard her name. Imo

this little chat wish we were flies on the wall for!

 

[k-mac]

will be interesting to see how a jury receives and interprets kk.

the good thing here DA May knows she ain't gunna look pretty.... sure they will work on that negative angle straight up to deflect back to PF

moo

 

[MassGuy]

will be interesting to see how a jury receives and interprets kk.

the good thing here DA May knows she ain't gunna look pretty.... sure they will work on that negative angle straight up to deflect back to PF

moo

Oh they have to IMO.

Get all of that stuff out of the way immediately, to deflate the defense’s efforts to discredit her.

 

[Dave F.]

^^SBM

I promise you the Police do not go over theories as you propose.

Police theories are based on evidence and the facts available to them.

If they have evidence a suspect drove from Vancouver BC to Yukon, they might theorize the route, where they stopped, or if they drove straight through but they wouldn't theorize they drove Vancouver to Denver to Yukon because the facts don't support that whatsoever.

Proposing a theory that the suspect drove to Denver is fantasy, and Police would tell you that it's ludicrous.

I think there might be a thread on WS that you can make up facts so you can hypothesize, but this is a real case with real evidence.

MOO

According to Google Maps Directions, the driving distance from Vancouver, BC to Denver and the to Dawson Creek, Yukon Territory is 3781 miles. KKL described driving a minimum 6184 miles at PF's bidding to fulfill his solicitations and provide cleanup, and LE didn't bat an eye. Prosecution believes it so much they are going to court with as the theory of the crime.
JMO
Google Maps

 

[MassGuy]

According to Google Maps Directions, the driving distance from Vancouver, BC to Denver and the to Dawson Creek, Yukon Territory is 3781 miles. KKL described driving a minimum 6184 miles at PF's bidding to fulfill his solicitations and provide cleanup, and LE didn't bat an eye. Prosecution believes it so much they are going to court with as the theory of the crime.
JMO
Google Maps

Why is that hard to believe?

I can’t imagine her implicating herself in 3 murder attempts, unless she was actually there.

We know for a fact that one of these trips occurred, as she was in Woodland Park on the 24th.

She also went with a relative on one of those attempts.

She admitted to being in a relationship with PF, and that meant doing some long distance driving.

She probably drove several times that distance over the length of their relationship.

 

[MemPat]

Why is that hard to believe?

I can’t imagine her implicating herself in 3 murder attempts, unless she was actually there.

We know for a fact that one of these trips occurred, as she was in Woodland Park on the 24th.

She also went with a relative on one of those attempts.

She admitted to being in a relationship with PF, and that meant doing some long distance driving.

She probably drove several times that distance over the length of their relationship.

So many have driven great distances to commit murder.

One who also was unsuccessful, but not for lack of trying, is Lisa Nowak.
Houston to Orlando.

Smart diapered astronaut who set out to kill her romantic competition.


It happens.

 

[MyBelle]

This is splitting hairs.

The point is that theories are developed based on the evidence, and not just pulled out of thin air (like the hitman assertion).

That's your opinion, not fact. A real fact is that PF is charged with solicitation. That is street lingo for "hit man" whether you agree or not.


A jury on Friday found Linda Gillman guilty of trying to hire a hit man to kill her ex-husband in 2016.....The verdict on Friday afternoon was a split decision. Charged with two counts of first-degree felony criminal solicitation, Gillman, 70, was found guilty of conspiring to kill her ex-husband, but was acquitted of trying to have the ex-husband’s wife killed.

Jury convicts Utah woman in ‘hired hit man’ case, as prosecutors file new charges alleging she wanted two others killed in addition to her ex-husband

 

[MassGuy]

That's your opinion, not fact. A real fact is that PF is charged with solicitation. That is street lingo for "hit man" whether you agree or not.


A jury on Friday found Linda Gillman guilty of trying to hire a hit man to kill her ex-husband in 2016.....The verdict on Friday afternoon was a split decision. Charged with two counts of first-degree felony criminal solicitation, Gillman, 70, was found guilty of conspiring to kill her ex-husband, but was acquitted of trying to have the ex-husband’s wife killed.

Jury convicts Utah woman in ‘hired hit man’ case, as prosecutors file new charges alleging she wanted two others killed in addition to her ex-husband

Yes, he solicited KK to kill Kelsey. He effectively asked her to be his “hitman.”

There is no evidence that KK killed her though, which is the point of contention.

 

[MyBelle]

According to Google Maps Directions, the driving distance from Vancouver, BC to Denver and the to Dawson Creek, Yukon Territory is 3781 miles. KKL described driving a minimum 6184 miles at PF's bidding to fulfill his solicitations and provide cleanup, and LE didn't bat an eye. Prosecution believes it so much they are going to court with as the theory of the crime.
JMO
Google Maps

And I think the defense will come out swinging.

JMO

 

[gitana1]

I didn't say I agreed with her. Not at all. For some reason that poster believes facts and evidence are one and the same and you do as well. They are not. A jury decides what evidence is credible.

That poster said: I promise you the Police do not go over theories as you propose. Police theories are based on the facts available to them.

I provided a link to a media report about this case that supports that police DO develop theories based on evidence and it is not unusual as the case unfolds that the theory changes. I think everyone here agrees, this case did not involve a robbery which was an initial theory proposed by DA Dan May.

JMO

Ok. Facts and evidence are the same thing.

 

[gitana1]

Or, if you are on the Abby and Libby thread...

Ha ha!!!

 

[MyBelle]

Yes, he solicited KK to kill Kelsey. He effectively asked her to be his “hitman.”

There is no evidence that KK killed her though, which is the point of contention.

No, it isn't a point of contention because that is not the way the Colorado statutes are written. The party that hires a hit man is just as guilty as the hit man. It is a fact that PF is charged with three counts of conspiracy. It doesn't matter whether he himself participated in the murder or KK participated or they both participated or if they hired a third party.

JMO

(1) Except as to bona fide acts of persons authorized by law to investigate and detect the commission of offenses by others, a person is guilty of criminal solicitation if he or she commands, induces, entreats, or otherwise attempts to persuade another person, or offers his or her services or another's services to a third person, to commit a felony, whether as principal or accomplice, with intent to promote or facilitate the commission of that crime, and under circumstances strongly corroborative of that intent.

Colorado Revised Statutes Title 18. Criminal Code § 18-2-301 | FindLaw

 

[MassGuy]

No, it isn't a point of contention because that is not the way the Colorado statutes are written. The party that hires a hit man is just as guilty as the hit man. It is a fact that PF is charged with three counts of conspiracy. It doesn't matter whether he himself participated in the murder or KK participated or they both participated or if they hired a third party.

JMO

(1) Except as to bona fide acts of persons authorized by law to investigate and detect the commission of offenses by others, a person is guilty of criminal solicitation if he or she commands, induces, entreats, or otherwise attempts to persuade another person, or offers his or her services or another's services to a third person, to commit a felony, whether as principal or accomplice, with intent to promote or facilitate the commission of that crime, and under circumstances strongly corroborative of that intent.

Colorado Revised Statutes Title 18. Criminal Code § 18-2-301 | FindLaw

I’m talking about one thing: Who actually killed Kelsey.

Not the law surrounding murder, solicitation, conspiracy; any of that.

There is no evidence that anyone other than Patrick Frazee murdered Kelsey.

 

[MyBelle]

Ok. Facts and evidence are the same thing.

I disagree. They aren't the same thing according to this link.

JMO

Evidence: Definition and Types

Evidence is used at trials to prove or disprove certain facts that would tend to show whether something was true or not. There are four types evidence by which facts can be proven or disproven at trial which include:

1. Real evidence;
2. Demonstrative evidence;
3. Documentary evidence; and
4. Testimonial evidence.

Not all of these types of evidence carry the same weight at trial. For instance, real evidence may be more believable than demonstrative evidence. It's the jury's role to weigh each type of evidence and make a determination as to the believability of the evidence presented.

Real and Demonstrative Evidence - FindLaw

 

[MyBelle]

I’m talking about one thing: Who actually killed Kelsey.

Not the law surrounding murder, solicitation, conspiracy; any of that.

There is no evidence that anyone other than Patrick Frazee murdered Kelsey.

There is no evidence PF murdered Kelsey because there is no evidence she is dead. No ME is going to testify about date, manner or cause of death. No crime scene. No weapon. There also is no evidence of motive for PF which a jury in a murder case always likes to know. There will be evidence KK lied to the FBI.

Good luck on winning a conviction on wishful thinking. The jury is going to want real evidence or they will return a verdict similar to the Skylar Richardson case.

JMO

 

[MassGuy]

There is no evidence PF murdered Kelsey because there is no evidence she is dead. No ME is going to testify about date, manner or cause of death. No crime scene. No weapon. There also is no evidence of motive for PF which a jury in a murder case always likes to know. There will be evidence KK lied to the FBI.

Good luck on winning a conviction on wishful thinking. The jury is going to want real evidence or they will return a verdict similar to the Skylar Richardson case.

JMO

So you are saying that murder charges were filed without evidence that Kelsey is even dead?

This is patently false, and ridiculously absurd. That is not how it works.

We can narrow down the time of death to a two hour period on Thanksgiving Day.

We can put the defendant there, because of surveillance footage and cell phone evidence.

We know that he was there for nefarious purposes, because he LIED about it.

We know that Kelsey was never heard from or seen again.

We know that he left with Kelsey’s cell phone, because phone records put Kelsey’s phone at the same location as his, for the next two days.

We know that house is a crime scene, because of the blood evidence, witness statements, and his lie about being there in the first place.

This is a circumstantial case, and anyone with the ability to use logic and reason, can put the pieces together.

A crime doesn’t need to be caught on video, nor does there have to be a body, weapon, motive, or autopsy finding.

Kelsey not being dead is a hell of a hill to die on.

 

[Dave F.]

So many have driven great distances to commit murder.

One who also was unsuccessful, but not for lack of trying, is Lisa Nowak.
Houston to Orlando.

Smart diapered astronaut who set out to kill her romantic competition.


It happens.

Google Maps Directions cites the driving distance from Houston to Orlando as 963 miles. KK did 1520 miles just to clean up, and didn't use diapers. At least that's the story I heard.
JMO
Google Maps