CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #56 *ARREST*

[Noharg]

What are some of your lingering questions about this case that you hope will be answered at trial?
TIA

 

[Dave F.]

I wonder why not? Wasn't the truck at the same Woodland Park PD impound lot as the green car?

 

[PommyMommy]

I’m assuming cadaver dogs use their noses to find evidence.

2:51 p.m.

Slater says a cadaver dog was brought to Nash Ranch eventually. It alerted to the specific discolored hay bale when positioned both underneath and above it.

Above it? Is it a flying dog? Just asking your opinion. I know what Sam tweeted. IMO

By definition, the word "positioned" would indicate the dog was placed there (above the bale) and alerted.

IMO, that's the most logical explanation but it's also possible the dog climbed to the top of the hay bales. And, that I know is possible because I used to have a dog who climbed trees.

I think it's safe to rule out flying. MOO

 

[1mtroyal]

What are some of your lingering questions about this case that you hope will be answered at trial?
TIA

I have some lingering questions, but they involve others close to Patrick and the questions might be construed as illegal sleuthing, so I will be content to wait. I do wonder if Patrick (the night before the murder), planned to "have a great time" with Kelsey, so that he could claim things were great between the two of them, so he couldn't have done this. Kind of like the husband on Forensic Files who killed his wife and then went out and bought his wife a Valentine's Day card and came home and found his wife dead and tried and convince the investigators he did not kill his wife who he had just bought a Valentine's Day card for.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I wonder why not? Wasn't the truck at the same Woodland Park PD impound lot as the green car?

The cadaver dogs were used on the green car while it was outside of Kelsey's apartment. PF's truck was not parked there at that point. His truck was later seized when they searched the Frazee ranch.

 

[Dave F.]

The cadaver dogs were used on the green car while it was outside of Kelsey's apartment. PF's truck was not parked there at that point. His truck was later seized when they searched the Frazee ranch.

The cadaver dogs searched, and didn't find anything, on December 4th, while the search warrant return says the car was towed to the yard ten days later on December 14th. We all saw photographs of the search of the condo, which was began on the 14th, and green Toyota wasn't parked in front. It seems like a puzzler IMO

Sam Kraemer Courtroom Tweets February 19, 2019:
10:08 a.m.
"Adams said he returned to the townhome on Dec. 4 for crime analysis from the CBI and they didn’t discover anything to determined the townhome was a crime scene. They searched the area with cadaver dogs, but they didn’t find her."
Live blog: Patrick Frazee appears in court for preliminary hearing

 

[MsBetsy]

Actually, the dogs use their years of training to pick up the scent. It is truly baffling to me why a well-trained cadaver dog failed to pick up the scent of a horrifically bloody crime scene undisturbed for two days.

I look forward to the explanation at trial.

JMO

Yes, they do. They train for 18 months to 2 years from what I understand.
But they still use their noses to pick up a scent, and different types of dogs are better at picking up specific scents than others.

From what I understand there are over 400 different chemicals a body makes as it decomposes.
As the decomposition progresses, the chemistry of the corpse changes causing different odors.

So maybe it's possible that the dogs were not able to pick up a specific odor in the condo but later were able to pick up the scent from the haybale. Maybe some fluids seeped into the hay. The body was there for a longer period of time, so maybe the dog detected a scent it did not in the condo.

Or maybe the environment in which they were working was a factor. Maybe the barn was cooler than the condo. Or maybe the chemicals used to clean threw off the scent.

There are many possibilities, and we will probably never know why. The dog probably knows, but infortunately cannot speak human!

IMO

 

[Dave F.]

Yes, they do. They train for 18 months to 2 years from what I understand.
But they still use their noses to pick up a scent, and different types of dogs are better at picking up specific scents than others.

From what I understand there are over 400 different chemicals a body makes as it decomposes.
As the decomposition progresses, the chemistry of the corpse changes causing different odors.

So maybe it's possible that the dogs were nit abke to pick up a specific odor in the condo but later were able to pick up the scent from the haybale. Maybe some fluids seeped into the hay. The body was there for a longer period of time, so maybe the dog detected a scent it did not in the condo.

Or maybe the environment in which they were working was a factor. Maybe the barn was cooler than the condo. Or maybe the chemicals used to clean threw off the scent.

There are many possibilities, and we will probably never know why. The dog probably knows, but infortunately cannot speak human!

IMO

Gee, that's a lot for a jury to consider IMO

 

[MsBetsy]

Gee, that's a lot for a jury to consider IMO

Yes, but that's assuming they will have an expert testify about all the different factors that play a role.
They may not need to depending on how big an issue it is at trial.
Do we know what type of dogs they were?
There have been cases where experts have claimed that certain types of dogs have proven to be less accurate than others.
From what I have read, even the experts disagree on how accurate cadaver dogs are in different situations.

It will that evidence, along with all the other evidence that will help them to reach a decision.

There is plenty of other evidence that is compelling. Imo

 

[steeltowngirl]

The cadaver dogs searched, and didn't find anything, on December 4th, while the search warrant return says the car was towed to the yard ten days later on December 14th. We all saw photographs of the search of the condo, which was began on the 14th, and green Toyota wasn't parked in front. It seems like a puzzler IMO

Sam Kraemer Courtroom Tweets February 19, 2019:
10:08 a.m.
"Adams said he returned to the townhome on Dec. 4 for crime analysis from the CBI and they didn’t discover anything to determined the townhome was a crime scene. They searched the area with cadaver dogs, but they didn’t find her."
Live blog: Patrick Frazee appears in court for preliminary hearing

The Toyota was parked outside of the residence on 12/3 & 12/4.

"While searching the residence, we observed a 2006 Toyota Corolla and a red colored Chevrolet pick-up truck parked outside of the residence. The pick-up truck registered to Kelsey's mother and the Toyota registered to both Kelsey and Patrick."

https://www.courts.state.co.us/user...erest/2018CR330/002/18-120 Search Warrant.pdf

 

[Steelhead]

.........but how does anyone (other than KK) explain that the dog hit on the green Toyota that was near where KKL said the tote was set on the ground, but not the truck that transported the body to Nash ranch, and then the dog hit again at Nash ranch, but the same truck was used to transport the tote to the franchette? Again, just asking.

2:10 pm - “Kenney says Frazee put Kelsey in a black tote and set that on the ground near the green Toyota before putting it in his truck & transporting her remains to a ranch in Fremont county. Didn’t catch the name. Sounded like Nash ranch or Dash ranch. Again, bad acoustics.”
Sam Kraemer courtroom Tweets 2/19/2019
Live blog: Patrick Frazee appears in court for preliminary hearing

BBM- I find it odd that a guy like PF would go in to that much detail about how he got the tote into his truck. Why would he tell KK specifically that he set it on the ground near the green Toyota before putting it in his truck? Why would she need to know that? Something's fishy about that, IMO.

 

[Dave F.]

Yes, but that's assuming they will have an expert testify about all the different factors that play a role.
They may not need to depending on how big an issue it is at trial.
Do we know what type of dogs they were?
There have been cases where experts have claimed that certain types of dogs have proven to be less accurate than others.
From what I have read, even the experts disagree on how accurate cadaver dogs are in different situations.

It will that evidence, along with all the other evidence that will help them to reach a decision.

There is plenty of other evidence that is compelling. Imo

I don't think the defense intends to contest the dogs' accuracy. They have named their witnesses, and there are no dog experts on it. I anticipate that there will be serious questions from the defense as to why some of the dogs' evidence is good, and some is not.
IMO

 

[GordianKnot]

Gee, that's a lot for a jury to consider IMO

Sure! That's why jurors get paid the big bucks.

Colorado Judicial Branch - Jury - Teller - Teller County Courthouse

Your employer has a duty under state law (§ 13-71-126, C.R.S.) to pay regular wages up to $50 per day if you are regularly employed. Employers may pay more than $50 by mutual agreement. If you are self-employed, you must compensate yourself for the first three days. Unemployed persons may apply for reimbursement of certain expenses during the first three days. After the third day, all jurors receive $50 per day from the state and will be required to fill out a W-9 to begin receiving payment of $50 per day. There are provisions for special hardships and certain expenses; please discuss these with the jury commissioner.

 

[ajaylee]

Hi, everybody. I have been lurking but not posting for a bit now.

As we get closer to trial date, I strongly urge everyone to read (or re-read) Tippy Lynn's Most Excellent Timeline from beginning to end. Many of the questions being discussed recently are either answered in the Timeline or more facts are available that shed light on the discussion.

I'm sure there is much more to come out during the trial, but it's still an excellent time (imho) to re-read the Timeline. It's also a reminder of just how much evidence there is, even if one can argue that no single piece is overwhelmingly convincing.

And...imho, SF is aging and appears to have a hip problem. I doubt that she can manage the Franch by herself and I suspect she expected PF to stay with her and take care of her for the rest of her life. She would not have welcomed the possibility of PF leaving the Franch for another woman. If PF got 100% custody of Baby K, she would have the best of all worlds: a lifetime caretaker, a grand-baby, and no 'interfering' daughter-in-law. I think she knows PF is guilty but prioritizes her own desire to stay on the Franch with her caretaker son until she dies.

Someone upthread wondered why PF didn't solicit one of his 'buddies' to kill KB instead of reaching out to KK. I think it was because KK, unlike his 'buddies', was an expendable patsy to him.

Why would PF go into such detail when telling KK what he'd done? imho, she was the only person he thought he would ever be able to safely brag to about what he thought he'd gotten away with. I also think there's evidence that he was indeed an 'odd duck', obsessed with small details, that he mulled things over again and again in his mind - as evidenced by calling a former gf in the middle of the night to tell her he visualized her in a wedding gown or concocting elaborate ever-expanding stories of KB's alleged drink/drug problems and violence towards Baby K. And remember his aggressiveness at the hospital when Baby K was born? It seems to me he'd given an unusual amount of thought to the bonding experience with Baby K - again, I think he mulls things over and dwells on small details.

It's why he couldn't put the cellphones down and had to keep piling on the fake conversations. It's why he came up with such ridiculous elaborate plots for KK to kill KB - drugs, a steel rod, a baseball bat, a 'guess the scent' game.

There's probably a clinical definition for what he was doing, maybe he's somewhere on the 'spectrum', but the close attention to details, real or fake, doesn't surprise me. I imagine there was a brief time there when he relived what he'd done over and over and over.

 

[mickey2942]

I have worked with trained dogs for years, there are so many variables in relying on a dog for evidence, that if that was it, I would have to aquit PF.

Fortunately, there is plenty of other evidence.

However, I would never be picked for a jury with that amount of experience with dogs. So, other people may have a different perspective.

 

[Gigi3]

Since I believe that KK is just as deranged as PF, it’s likely she asked him for all the sordid details.
PF was probably happy to oblige. JMO.

 

[MassGuy]

Since I believe that KK is just as deranged as PF, it’s likely she asked him for all the sordid details.
PF was probably happy to oblige. JMO.

She failed on three murder attempts, but I absolutely think it’s possible that the 4th time would have been the charm.

She just didn’t get the opportunity.

 

[MyBelle]

Just to keep the facts in order, the suggestion that KK put Ambien and Valium in KB's coffee (which she refused to do) was made by PF.

https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/04th_Judicial_District/Teller/caseofinterest/2018CR330/Application and Affidavit for Arrest Warrant.pdf
Frazee wanted her to put Valium and Ambien in the coffee.

Live blog: Patrick Frazee appears in court for preliminary hearing
12:00 p.m.
Slater: Kenney said that Frazee suggested poisoning a Caramel Macchiato from Starbucks with Ambien and other drugs to kill Kelsey Berreth, she carried some of those drugs as a nurse. Kenney said she went to the Starbucks and drove to Berreth’s townhome on Sept. 23, 2018. That’s when Kenney told Slater she gave her the coffee, which she told investigators wasn’t drugged. Slater said Kenney told him she told Berreth that she was a neighbor and she wanted to thank Berreth for finding her dogs.

Slater said Kenney told him that she didn’t drug the drink because “she didn’t want to hurt her.” Kenney said she texted Frazee afterward. Kenney told Slater that Frazee was angry. She said Frazee sent her an apology text later that day. According to Slater, Frazee told Kenney that there would be another chance.

Patrick Frazee to face trial after preliminary hearing
They discussed a plan where Kenney would lie about her identity and visit Berreth’s home to thank her for helping her find her dogs. No other details were available on this part of the investigation, but at the direction of Frazee, Kenney did so. Frazee then suggested contaminating coffee and giving it to Berreth. Kenney did purchase a coffee for Berreth and brought it to her home, possibly as a thank you. But Kenney did not contaminate the coffee, as she and Frazee had discussed.

Landfill search for Kelsey Berreth over; remains not found
Testimony from the CBI agent revealed the chain of events from Kenney's eyes. Before Nov. 22, Kenney said Frazee originally asked her to poison a drink and give it to Berreth as a way to "get rid of her." Frazee allegedly wanted Kenney to develop a "rapport" with Berreth posing as a new neighbor. Kenney went to Berreth's house and claims she introduced herself with a fake name and gave her a cup of coffee that wasn't laced with anything.

Cop testifies woman told police Colorado man beat fiancee to death with a bat
Kenney said Frazee suggested multiple ways that she could kill Berreth, including poisoning her coffee or striking her in the head with a metal rod and a baseball bat, Slater said.

https://www.coloradoan.com/story/ne...o-man-accused-killing-kelsey-berr/2914583002/
Kenney said Frazee told her he needed to get rid of Berreth because he was worried about her harming their daughter. The first time he suggested Kenney kill Berreth, Kenney said Frazee suggested she drug Berreth's coffee after picking up her favorite order from Starbucks.

Missing Colo. Mom's Fiancé Asked Nurse to Steal Drugs and Poison Coffee: 'Get Rid of Kelsey'
Colorado prosecutors allege Kelsey Berreth‘s fiancé asked his longtime friend, a nurse, to steal powerful drugs so they could poison the coffee of the missing 29-year-old mom whom authorities presume was murdered, according to multiple reports.

Yes, at 12:00 when questioned by the prosecution, Agent Slater testified that KK told him Frazee suggested poisoning the Starbucks with ambien.

And apparently KK also told Slater that the ambien was her idea. So the key witness in her rambling 4+ hours of interviews blatantly contradicted herself and the defense caught it.

These two tweets by Kraemer were inserted at 3:54 PM in his blog:



Sam Kraemer @SamKraemerTV

· Feb 19, 2019

Replying to @SamKraemerTV
They then went to Kenney’s home on Dec. 18 with proof she lied to the FBI and about her knowledge of what happened. Kenney wouldn’t speak without her attorney present, which then happened on Dec. 20 after reaching an agreement with the DA’s Office about her charges. @KOAA



Sam Kraemer @SamKraemerTV

Defense pointing out fact that Frazee never blatantly said he wanted Krystal to kill Kelsey Berreth. Slater agrees. Kenney felt like Frazee was just “pulling her chain”. Kenney is the one who suggested putting ambien in the macchiato. @KOAA #KrystalKenney #PatrickFrazee
Sam Kraemer @SamKraemerTV
Live blog: Patrick Frazee appears in court for preliminary hearing

 

[MyBelle]

Why would she have to have seen inside the tote? The gun wasn't in the tote, it was in a plastic bag up on the hay bale along with the tote.

2:41 p.m.

Kenney, on Dec. 20, said Frazee had to climb this large stack & go to the back to grab the tote and a plastic bag containing Kelsey’s gun. The tractor was used to bring the tote down from the top of the stack, Slater says.

Live blog: Patrick Frazee appears in court for preliminary hearing

From your link:
2:18 p.m.

Frazee, per Kenney, used a ladder to put Kelsey Berreth’s body near a big haystack. They took the tote with her gun inside.

 

[PommyMommy]

Yes, at 12:00 when questioned by the prosecution, Agent Slater testified that KK told him Frazee suggested poisoning the Starbucks with ambien.

And apparently KK also told Slater that the ambien was her idea. So the key witness in her rambling 4+ hours of interviews blatantly contradicted herself and the defense caught it.

These two tweets by Kraemer were inserted at 3:54 PM in his blog:



Sam Kraemer @SamKraemerTV

· Feb 19, 2019

Replying to @SamKraemerTV
They then went to Kenney’s home on Dec. 18 with proof she lied to the FBI and about her knowledge of what happened. Kenney wouldn’t speak without her attorney present, which then happened on Dec. 20 after reaching an agreement with the DA’s Office about her charges. @KOAA



Sam Kraemer @SamKraemerTV

Defense pointing out fact that Frazee never blatantly said he wanted Krystal to kill Kelsey Berreth. Slater agrees. Kenney felt like Frazee was just “pulling her chain”. Kenney is the one who suggested putting ambien in the macchiato. @KOAA #KrystalKenney #PatrickFrazee
Sam Kraemer @SamKraemerTV
Live blog: Patrick Frazee appears in court for preliminary hearing

From the same link:

Live blog: Patrick Frazee appears in court for preliminary hearing
Slater: Kenney said that Frazee suggested poisoning a Caramel Macchiato from Starbucks with Ambien and other drugs to kill Kelsey Berreth, she carried some of those drugs as a nurse.