CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #56 *ARREST*

[MyBelle]

Bravo for the defense? I take that to mean that you're hoping PF is found not guilty?

Btw, whose blood do you think KK smeared all over the townhome and where did she get it? That one is baffling to me. MOO

I don't believe there was blood smeared all over the townhouse.

I want PF convicted with real evidence not the fantasy from a woman who was clearly stalking the victim for months and admitted to Agent Slater that the Ambien was her idea and that PF didn't actually ask her to kill Kelsey.

JMO

 

[MsBetsy]

I don't agree that there are many possibilities because it was a K-9 cadaver dog and and KK claimed the walls, floors were covered with human blood. I'm betting the dog's handler will testify at trial.

JMO

I was replying to the reason why they may have missed the scent in the condo. Some dogs are trained to pick up the scent of blood, and others are trained to detect other odors such as those that are produced from internal organs from a decomposing body. (that seems to be more common)
I was just wondering what kind of dogs were used since apparently different breeds are better than others in picking up different odors.

The various possibilities are the different things I read about. I'm not saying they are going to address any of those things.

In the case in Malaysia where Nora went missing in the jungle the dogs did not pick up her scent once, even though she was unclothed and barefoot and they had already searched the area her body was found in. I wondered how this was possible and that's why I read about all the reasons they can make mistakes. (She had also been dead for a few days when they found her, but cadaver dogs did not alert to a dead body either)

Also, those that are specifically trained to detect the foul odor that originates from the organs may not pick them up from just the blood.

I'm not saying that's what happened, I just wondered if they were trained to detect blood, or the other odors, or both.

IMO

 

[PommyMommy]

I don't believe there was blood smeared all over the townhouse.

I want PF convicted with real evidence not the fantasy from a woman who was clearly stalking the victim for months and admitted to Agent Slater that the Ambien was her idea and that PF didn't actually ask her to kill Kelsey.

JMO

I went looking for the word "smeared" and I guess the word I must have been thinking of was "planted." So, my question is where do you think KK got the blood? Especially if it matched KB's DNA? TIA, Red BBM and a MOO

MyBelle:
Deceased/Not Found - CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #55 *ARREST*
I believe she planted the blood to mislead LE into believing the condo is the crime scene.

JMO

MyBelle:
Deceased/Not Found - CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #55 *ARREST*
BBM. I agree which is why LE didn't find it. We don't know what KK planted or if it contained KB's DNA. We only know the blood found by KB's mother contained KB's DNA.

JMO

 

[Dave F.]

1) What info was discovered r/t PF's digital/electronic data, e.g., what did deep dive of his data reveal re: his internet search history, web sites visited, electronic communications, etc.?

2) What were the financial arrangements b/t PF and KK for Baby K., i.e, did he pay her any child support, and had there been any recent conversations b/t them about making the custody arrangements more formal, i.e., had KB spoken about going through the court system?

3) What did PF's LEO bro, aka SF2, say to PF right before his meeting with LE at the Five Guys on December 4th?

4) What did PF's LEO bro, aka SF2, observe while he was there at Ma F.'s for Thanksgiving dinner, e.g., what time did PF arrive at the house, had everyone already eaten or not, did SF2 at any point observe PF's truck outside that day, did PF leave the house again at any point while SF2 was there, what clothing did SF2 observe PF to be wearing when he got to the house on Thanksgiving Day, etc.?

5) Did PF park his truck where he normally did when he got home on Thanksgiving Day?

6) What time did PF leave the house after he came home for Thanksgiving Dinner and what reason did he provide to family for leaving Baby K there while he went out again?

7) What specific evidence enabled LE to make the determination that KB was dead and that manner of death was homicide?

8) Whose blood was on the bottle of bleach and the Swiffer taken from the ranch?

9) Were any of the teeth that LE took into evidence KB's?

10) Did PF get his brains from his mom's side or his dad's side of the family?

Can I answer question 4) Part 5?

Q: what clothing did SF2 observe PF to be wearing when he got to the house on Thanksgiving Day, etc.?

A: That’s difficult to say, because the bro can be a real fashion plate, but I’d have to guess it was:
1. Carharrt Style 101124 pocketless T-shirt, in the always popular Heather Gray color
2. Lee Wrangler Classic 20X 01 Competition Jeans, 5 pocket, zipper fly, relaxed fit
3. Columbia Redmond V2 Mid Waterproof Hiking boot, brown colors (or equivalent Khombu brand)
4. A light colored baseball cap with the brand “P-F” emblazoned on the front
5. An Android Smart Watch, probably LG or Starry Bay brand

Thanks! I've been waiting months for an opportunity to do that. I feel so much better now.

 

[MassGuy]

I went looking for the word "smeared" but I guess I must have been thinking of "planted." So, my question is where do you think KK got the blood? Especially if it matched KB's DNA? TIA MOO

MyBelle:
Deceased/Not Found - CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #55 *ARREST*
I believe she planted the blood to mislead LE into believing the condo is the crime scene.

JMO

MyBelle:
Deceased/Not Found - CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #55 *ARREST*
BBM. I agree which is why LE didn't find it. We don't know what KK planted or if it contained KB's DNA. We only know the blood found by KB's mother contained KB's DNA.

JMO

She’s a nurse Pommy, which means she has access to needles.

Clearly, she snuck into Kelsey’s house on multiple occasions, and withdrew small amounts of blood as she slept.

She probably stored it in a used Sonic cup.

Nope, that’s insane.

 

[PommyMommy]

She’s a nurse Pommy, which means she has access to needles.

Clearly, she snuck into Kelsey’s house on multiple occasions, and withdrew small amounts of blood as she slept.

She probably stored it in a used Sonic cup.

Nope, that’s insane.

Yeah, that one doesn't work for me either. Hoping @MyBelle can clear this up since it's her theory that KK planted the blood. MOO

 

[MsBetsy]

I don't believe there was blood smeared all over the townhouse.

I want PF convicted with real evidence not the fantasy from a woman who was clearly stalking the victim for months and admitted to Agent Slater that the Ambien was her idea and that PF didn't actually ask her to kill Kelsey.

JMO

If the blood was not smeared all over the condo, and Kelsey was not killed in the living room, and if the blood was not her blood, then how did it get there and where did it come from?

ETA, I forgot to ask, why would KK tell LE the murder took place in the back room after spreading most of it all over the living room?

 

[Dave F.]

As I tried to say, the green Toyota was sniffed by the dog(s) twice…….at KB’s condo on December 4th (with no resulting hit) and again after it was towed to the pound on December 14th (with a hit on the right rear bumper area):
SW 18-120, Attachment A,Page 6, Paragraphs 3 and 4:
“On 12/04/18 the Colorado Bureau of Investigation (CBI) and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) was requested to assist the WPPD due to the suspicious circumstances surrounding Kelsey’s disappearance. CBI Agents Gregg Slater and Kevin Torres responded to assist. CBI Agent Gregg Slater requested a second search of Kelsey’s residence, curtilage, and vehicles. Agent Slater also arranged for a human decomposition K9 to respond to Kelsey’s residence and vehicles for the presence of human decomposition.
The two vehicles were towed from Kelsey’s residence to the WPPD impound lot to be searched. A search warrant was obtained to search a 2006 Toyota Corolla belonging to Kelsey and Patrick. The honorable Judge Billings-Vela signed a search warrant for the vehicle. A sock with what appeared to be a small amount of blood was located on the front passenger seat. The K9 indicated the presence of human decomposition on the driver side rear bumper area.”
Colorado Judicial Branch - Teller - Cases of Interest - The People of the State of Colorado v. Patrick Frazee

 

[?mysterian?]

Ok, how about this:

PF swings the bat multiple times, KB suffers horribly but doesn't actually expire until she is placed in the plastic tote. There are no "scents" for the cadaver dog to find, despite the allegedly copious blood that has been deposited throughout the townhome and cleaned by KK.

To add to the questions:

I'd like to know what SF is so het up about taking the Fifth for. I have many, many questions about her, and the rest of the Frazees.

 

[?mysterian?]

Yeah, that one doesn't work for me either. Hoping @MyBelle can clear this up since it's her theory that KK planted the blood. MOO

Good lord. Honestly. I thought theories here were supposed to be based on evidence.

However, not surprised. Still flashing back to the Watts case, may they rest in peace.

 

[MyBelle]

Ok, how about this:

PF swings the bat multiple times, KB suffers horribly but doesn't actually expire until she is placed in the plastic tote. There are no "scents" for the cadaver dog to find, despite the allegedly copious blood that has been deposited throughout the townhome and cleaned by KK.

To add to the questions:

I'd like to know what SF is so het up about taking the Fifth for. I have many, many questions about her, and the rest of the Frazees.

Except the cadaver dog did hit on a pair of KB's underwear in the condo.

Technically, SF didn't take the Fifth at the prelim because the judge decided she didn't need to testify.
JMO

1:33 p.m.


Judge Sells says he thinks the evidence the state seeks from Sheila can be presented from other witnesses. She is still sequestered, so she is not allowed in the courtroom.


1:32 p.m.


The state wants to ask Sheila about the phone call on Nov. 22 from Patrick, witnessing the burn, and more. Judge reviewed the case law citations. He says this is not the time & place for Sheila’s testimony.


1:30 p.m.


Court is back in session. Judge says they talked about admitting Sheila Frazee as a witness. She is exercising her right to remain silent at the advisement of counsel.

Live blog: Patrick Frazee appears in court for preliminary hearing

 

[PommyMommy]

Except the cadaver dog did hit on a pair of KB's underwear in the condo.

Technically, SF didn't take the Fifth at the prelim because the judge decided she didn't need to testify.
JMO

1:33 p.m.


Judge Sells says he thinks the evidence the state seeks from Sheila can be presented from other witnesses. She is still sequestered, so she is not allowed in the courtroom.


1:32 p.m.


The state wants to ask Sheila about the phone call on Nov. 22 from Patrick, witnessing the burn, and more. Judge reviewed the case law citations. He says this is not the time & place for Sheila’s testimony.


1:30 p.m.


Court is back in session. Judge says they talked about admitting Sheila Frazee as a witness. She is exercising her right to remain silent at the advisement of counsel.

Live blog: Patrick Frazee appears in court for preliminary hearing

Read the last sentence in your post. What do you think "exercising her right to remain silent at the advisement of counsel" means? MOO

Sam Kraemer on Twitter
She’s exercising her fifth amendment right, FYI. @KOAA #KelseyBerreth #PatrickFrazee
9:09 AM · Feb 19, 201

 

[MyBelle]

I was replying to the reason why they may have missed the scent in the condo. Some dogs are trained to pick up the scent of blood, and others are trained to detect other odors such as those that are produced from internal organs from a decomposing body. (that seems to be more common)
I was just wondering what kind of dogs were used since apparently different breeds are better than others in picking up different odors.

The various possibilities are the different things I read about. I'm not saying they are going to address any of those things.

In the case in Malaysia where Nora went missing in the jungle the dogs did not pick up her scent once, even though she was unclothed and barefoot and they had already searched the area her body was found in. I wondered how this was possible and that's why I read about all the reasons they can make mistakes. (She had also been dead for a few days when they found her, but cadaver dogs did not alert to a dead body either)

Also, those that are specifically trained to detect the foul odor that originates from the organs may not pick them up from just the blood.

I'm not saying that's what happened, I just wondered if they were trained to detect blood, or the other odors, or both.

IMO

BBM. The testimony was that a K-9 cadaver dog went through the condo and did pick up KB's scent on underwear. Which I find weird. Did the killer intend on keeping a souvenir?

Cadaver dogs are trained to pick up many scents including blood which is part of decomposition. Which then begs the question: did they ever use a search and rescue dog to see if KB walked out of the condo? She told her mother that she and PF may go out to dinner. Taking KB out in the middle of nowhere and killing her there makes a lot more sense to me than the bloody mess KK claimed was in the condo. Especially considering she was with PF in the middle of nowhere just the night before.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Read the last sentence in your post. What do you think "exercising her right to remain silent" means? MOO

Sam Kraemer on Twitter
She’s exercising her fifth amendment right, FYI. @KOAA #KelseyBerreth #PatrickFrazee
9:09 AM · Feb 19, 201

Yes, evidently the judge held a conference with the attorneys. What do you think "case law citations" means? The judge ruled it wasn't the time or place for her testimony.

JMO

 

[MassGuy]

BBM. The testimony was that a K-9 cadaver dog went through the condo and did pick up KB's scent on underwear. Which I find weird. Did the killer intend on keeping a souvenir?

Cadaver dogs are trained to pick up many scents including blood which is part of decomposition. Which then begs the question: did they ever use a search and rescue dog to see if KB walked out of the condo? She told her mother that she and PF may go out to dinner. Taking KB out in the middle of nowhere and killing her there makes a lot more sense to me than the bloody mess KK claimed was in the condo. Especially considering she was with PF in the middle of nowhere just the night before.

JMO

So explain his lie about when he last saw Kelsey then.

Explain why he spent two hours there.

Explain why KK was at that house on the 24th, which was verified by phone records (how they caught her in a lie in the first place).

Explain KK’s knowledge of the house.

Explain the blood in the bathroom (blood we know was KB’s).

Explain the probable blood under the flooring, under chairs, and on the fireplace.

Kelsey didn’t walk out if that house, she was almost certainly dragged or carried inside that tote.

A tote that was seen in surveillance video on the day of the murder, sitting in the back of PF’s truck.

This is baseless nonsense, that literally requires one to ignore this evidence, and theorize some alternate scenario without any support for it.

 

[PommyMommy]

Yes, evidently the judge held a conference with the attorneys. What do you think "case law citations" means? The judge ruled it wasn't the time or place for her testimony.

JMO

Case citation - Wikipedia

Courtroom updates: Preliminary hearing for Patrick Frazee, who is accused of killing Kelsey Berreth
The prosecution tried to call Patrick Frazee's mother Sheila Frazee as its first witness, however, her attorney argued that she should not be compelled to testify, citing her Fifth Amendment rights.

The judge ruled in favor of Sheila Frazee and she will not testify at this point, though he has asked that she leave the courtroom.

 

[Hatfield]

JMO
Been catching up and I think people are raising good points for both the prosecution and the defense.

One of the main things the jury is going to have to decide is whether they believe KK or not about her allegations and testimony against PF. And the problem the jury will have is that if the Defense can prove she has lied about some things then the jury will struggle with her because then it means they have to pick and choose what parts she is telling the truth on, and what parts she has lied on. Juries dont like witnesses where it has been proven to them that they have lied. Sometimes juries will throw the baby out with the bath water and disregard all her testimony if the defense starts to prove she lied on multiple occasions.

This is a serious challenge the Prosecutor will have with KK and the jury. The good news is other evidence will also point to PF's involvement so it won't all be KK's testimony on the table, however, she seems to be the prosecution's star witness and so if there ends up being real issues with her in the jury's eyes, then it could cause serious problems for the proscution's case. Especially since a lot of the physical evidence and testimony so far ended up getting dirty hands on KK and not so much on PF.

Like cleaning up the crime scene, taking KB's phone with her and taking it all the way to her home state of Idaho to destroy it, admitting to conspiring to murder KK on multiple unsuccessful occasions. In a lot of ways, and with the way things currently stand, I could see where it would be easier for a jury to believe that KK killed her rather than PF. Especially if the Defense makes her look like a lying fool.

For PF, PF had some other things he did that makes him just as culpable in my eyes like the bank run with his friend and asking the bank teller those questions he asked. And the day he was arrested he seemed to be trying to make a run for it IMO. So there should be plenty of other evidence besides KK to help bring PF to justice.

Lets hope the jury is on their toes during this trial.

 

[?mysterian?]

JMO
Been catching up and I think people are raising good points for both the prosecution and the defense.

One of the main things the jury is going to have to decide is whether they believe KK or not about her allegations and testimony against PF. And the problem the jury will have is that if the Defense can prove she has lied about some things then the jury will struggle with her because then it means they have to pick and choose what parts she is telling the truth on, and what parts she has lied on. Juries dont like witnesses where it has been proven to them that they have lied. Sometimes juries will throw the baby out with the bath water and disregard all her testimony if the defense starts to prove she lied on multiple occasions.

This is a serious challenge the Prosecutor will have with KK and the jury. The good news is other evidence will also point to PF's involvement so it won't all be KK's testimony on the table, however, she seems to be the prosecution's star witness and so if there ends up being real issues with her in the jury's eyes, then it could cause serious problems for the proscution's case. Especially since a lot of the physical evidence and testimony so far ended up getting dirty hands on KK and not so much on PF.

Like cleaning up the crime scene, taking KB's phone with her and taking it all the way to her home state of Idaho to destroy it, admitting to conspiring to murder KK on multiple unsuccessful occasions. In a lot of ways, and with the way things currently stand, I could see where it would be easier for a jury to believe that KK killed her rather than PF. Especially if the Defense makes her look like a lying fool.

For PF, PF had some other things he did that makes him just as culpable in my eyes like the bank run with his friend and asking the bank teller those questions he asked. And the day he was arrested he seemed to be trying to make a run for it IMO. So there should be plenty of other evidence besides KK to help bring PF to justice.

Lets hope the jury is on their toes during this trial.

KK's credibility is definitely an issue the prosecution will need to address, IMO. What will be crucial for the jury to understand is the cell phone data and the surveillance footage showing PF to be lying his @$$ off about where he was Thanksgiving Day, the afternoon of which all communication from KB stopped. Yeah, PF tried to fake KB communicating with her phone, but it seems blatantly obvious compared to her other communications that something was different. During this time frame, KK was still in ID. NOWHERE near KB's. KK arrived for the aftermath. This has all been linked previously in these threads. IMO.

 

[gitana1]

Except the cadaver dog did hit on a pair of KB's underwear in the condo.

Technically, SF didn't take the Fifth at the prelim because the judge decided she didn't need to testify.
JMO

1:33 p.m.


Judge Sells says he thinks the evidence the state seeks from Sheila can be presented from other witnesses. She is still sequestered, so she is not allowed in the courtroom.


1:32 p.m.


The state wants to ask Sheila about the phone call on Nov. 22 from Patrick, witnessing the burn, and more. Judge reviewed the case law citations. He says this is not the time & place for Sheila’s testimony.


1:30 p.m.


Court is back in session. Judge says they talked about admitting Sheila Frazee as a witness. She is exercising her right to remain silent at the advisement of counsel.

Live blog: Patrick Frazee appears in court for preliminary hearing

It can be confusing but a judge won't rule that a person doesn't have to testify based on the fifth amendment privilege unless the person asserts the privilege. Which SF did. The judge then had to rule on her assertion of privilege and whether it was valid.

It was a pretty big deal when it happened.

 

[Deleted member 718]

PF said he last saw Kelsey when they exchanged the baby.

He was caught on Walmart surveillance video with baby K. This led law enforcement to believe that he was telling the truth about the exchange.

However, 7 minutes after leaving Walmart, PF is seen on surveillance video returning to the house, and leaving two hours later.

His cell phone also put him there. When he left, both he and Kelsey’s phones began traveling together.

It’s the biggest lie PF told, and absolutely damning.

I'm trying to fit in his using an ATM at Walmart at 15:13 Nov 22 per search warrant 18-118. Thank you