NOT GUILTY Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely #4

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  • #181
And then they brought in an even more experienced forensic expert who explained why Harris was incorrect.

No, that’s not true. He said why he thought he was correct. He was paid to appear to present an opposing view favorable to the defense.

The official cause of death has been determined by the medical examiner as neck compression as part of her official duties for the People and reviewed and confirmed by expert colleagues.

This has been linked and quoted repeatedly. The introduction of doubt by a defense is not to be confused with official reports, imo.

The hired pathologist has an agenda as the medical examiner is doing her job as are the others in the office. That has more weight, imo, than a guy bought from Texas to introduce doubt.

Jordan Neely’s cause of death:


All imo
 
  • #182
Is it fair to point out that Dr Chundru was paid for his testimony, or is that supposed to be something we shouldn't mention, because it's considered irrelevant or secret or disrespectful or... something else?
Anyone following true crime cases already knows expert witnesses are paid for their time. It's not a secret.
 
  • #183
He was paid to appear to present an opposing view favorable to the defense.
And from what I gather by what I see online, he did an incredible job of it. He brought up all sorts of things I'm sure most people never would have thought of. Which makes perfect sense, considering his expertise.

Tomorrow's closing arguments will be interesting, to say the least.

jmo
 
  • #184
And from what I gather by what I see online, he did an incredible job of it. He brought up all sorts of things I'm sure most people never would have thought of. Which makes perfect sense, considering his expertise.

Tomorrow's closing arguments will be interesting, to say the least.

jmo

That is what he is well paid to do: bring up all sorts of things most people would never think of!


All imo
 
  • #185
And then they brought in an even more experienced forensic expert who explained why Harris was incorrect.

I wish we knew how many expert witnesses they tried before they found one that fit their agenda well enough to put on the stand. Maybe they got lucky first try, maybe not.

ETA I wish I had waited and read @sunspun post first, needless to say, I agree with every word of it!
 
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  • #186
Anyone following true crime cases already knows expert witnesses are paid for their time. It's not a secret.
Well, what I mean is that the fact that they are getting paid to say whatever will help whichever side is paying them, makes it hard for me sometimes to trust what they say. Because they know they wouldn't get paid otherwise. If they don't assure the attorneys that what they say will meet their approval, then the attorneys will say no thank you and ask some other expert who WILL promise to say only what the attorneys want said.

In any other setting, this would give any reasonable person cause to be skeptical about the testimony of an expert paid witness. This is only logical and should be easy to see why. When we hear a celebrity touting some product, we want to know if they've been paid to do so. In fact, I think it's the law that they have to disclose that fact if they are. And if we know they are, reasonable people are more skeptical about the truth of their claims. This is common and expected and makes sense.

But when it comes to the courtroom, we're supposed to throw out all our reasonable skepticism and believe what they say, despite knowing that their compensation depends entirely on them saying only what the attorneys agreed they could say. If the expert has a different opinion on the subject, they are not invited to be a paid expert. In fact, we also know that if the expert were getting paid by the opposing attorneys, their testimony would be totally different. So I have to wonder how I'm supposed to put any faith in what the paid experts say, and that goes for experts on either side.

But this is especially true when it becomes clear that a particular expert's opinion and testimony is not in line with the majority of other professionals in their field. In other words, if it seems that this person is the only one who would testify the way the attorneys who paid them wanted. If it would be hard to find other experts who agree with them, I'm going to assume that this expert is only saying this to get paid, and I can rightfully discount this testimony. If their testimony is in line with what the majority of other professionals in their field say, I wouldn't have a problem with them, even knowing they're being paid. So it requires a little extra effort and research with each paid testimony, to know whether or not this expert is credible. In Dr. Chudru's case, admittedly I'm no expert myself, but from reports I've read about others views on what he testified about, it sounds like he is alone or in a minority at least of people in the field who think the way he said he does. I don't think it's commonly accepted by experts that JN's death could have been caused by his exertional sickling and not by DP's chokehold. I can't help but feel like the only reason the doctor said this was because he was being paid by the defense to say it. In fact, I don't think Dr Chudru even actually believes this.
 
  • #187
IMO, it’s impotant to note that prosecution witnesses, like Dr. Harris, have their own institutional biases and external pressures that may affect their findings.
 
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  • #188
Well, what I mean is that the fact that they are getting paid to say whatever will help whichever side is paying them, makes it hard for me sometimes to trust what they say. Because they know they wouldn't get paid otherwise. If they don't assure the attorneys that what they say will meet their approval, then the attorneys will say no thank you and ask some other expert who WILL promise to say only what the attorneys want said.

In any other setting, this would give any reasonable person cause to be skeptical about the testimony of an expert paid witness. This is only logical and should be easy to see why. When we hear a celebrity touting some product, we want to know if they've been paid to do so. In fact, I think it's the law that they have to disclose that fact if they are. And if we know they are, reasonable people are more skeptical about the truth of their claims. This is common and expected and makes sense.

But when it comes to the courtroom, we're supposed to throw out all our reasonable skepticism and believe what they say, despite knowing that their compensation depends entirely on them saying only what the attorneys agreed they could say. If the expert has a different opinion on the subject, they are not invited to be a paid expert. In fact, we also know that if the expert were getting paid by the opposing attorneys, their testimony would be totally different. So I have to wonder how I'm supposed to put any faith in what the paid experts say, and that goes for experts on either side.

But this is especially true when it becomes clear that a particular expert's opinion and testimony is not in line with the majority of other professionals in their field. In other words, if it seems that this person is the only one who would testify the way the attorneys who paid them wanted. If it would be hard to find other experts who agree with them, I'm going to assume that this expert is only saying this to get paid, and I can rightfully discount this testimony. If their testimony is in line with what the majority of other professionals in their field say, I wouldn't have a problem with them, even knowing they're being paid. So it requires a little extra effort and research with each paid testimony, to know whether or not this expert is credible. In Dr. Chudru's case, admittedly I'm no expert myself, but from reports I've read about others views on what he testified about, it sounds like he is alone or in a minority at least of people in the field who think the way he said he does. I don't think it's commonly accepted by experts that JN's death could have been caused by his exertional sickling and not by DP's chokehold. I can't help but feel like the only reason the doctor said this was because he was being paid by the defense to say it. In fact, I don't think Dr Chudru even actually believes this.
I understand why you might think that, but it's not the case. Several safeguards are in place to prevent that.

1. States require expert testimony to meet either the Daubert or Frye standard, which requires that the testimony they will give on the stand meets an accepted level of scientific validity and has been tested and agreed upon by the consensus of the scientific/medical community. This is a rigorous process whereby the evidence must have been subject to peer-review and publication.
2. Expert witnesses are sworn in as other witnesses are and are subject to perjury charges if they lie--and judges have the discretion to exclude testimony.
3. The expert witness is subject to cross-examination about his/her credentials, methodology, and conclusions.
4. In most states, experts must submit detailed reports of the testimony they will give, which gives the other side time to oppose the expert.


Plus, expert witnesses will rarely risk their professional reputations and risk losing their licenses by lying on the stand.

It took me only a little googling on PubMed to learn that everything Dr. Chundru said was backed-up by peer-reviewed studies and tests.

All MOO
 
  • #189
That is what he is well paid to do: bring up all sorts of things most people would never think of!


All imo
Except that many people have thought of those things, and in order for expert testimony to meet the Daubert standard, there must be a general consensus in the scientific community that it is accurate.

You can read more about it here.
 
  • #190
I wish we knew how many expert witnesses they tried before they found one that fit their agenda well enough to put on the stand. Maybe they got lucky first try, maybe not.

ETA I wish I had waited and read @sunspun post first, needless to say, I agree with every word of it!
Who knows? One? Ten? What we do know is that the judge approved Chundru's testimony (so, it met the Daubert Standard), and the Defense was not able to discredit it or scientifically dispute it.

The rest is just all guessing unless the Defense comes out and tells us.
 
  • #191
<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

Pubmed, managed by a branch of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), is a searchable database that contains scientific and medical studies and reports from a wide range of biomedical journals.

When you google a medical issue and PubMed (in JN's case--exertional sickling), you'll pull up the latest peer-reviewed studies on the subject like this one, and this one, and this one, among many...

<modsnip>To have their research indexed on Pubmed, it must first be published in a scientific or medical journal and indexed on Medline.

Dr. Chundru's testimony is based on solid medical research. Dr. Harris admitted she based COD on watching the video rather than waiting for the tox screen to come back.

All MOO
 
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  • #192
<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

Pubmed, managed by a branch of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), is a searchable database that contains scientific and medical studies and reports from a wide range of biomedical journals.

When you google a medical issue and PubMed (in JN's case--exertional sickling), you'll pull up the latest peer-reviewed studies on the subject like this one, and this one, and this one, among many...

<modsnip>To have their research indexed on Pubmed, it must first be published in a scientific or medical journal and indexed on Medline.

Dr. Chundru's testimony is based on solid medical research. Dr. Harris admitted she based COD on watching the video rather than waiting for the tox screen to come back.

All MOO

<modsnip: Quoted post was modsnipped>

The Medical Examiner spent 4 hours in front of the jury they will have all the information from both sides.

All imo
 
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  • #193
<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

Pubmed, managed by a branch of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), is a searchable database that contains scientific and medical studies and reports from a wide range of biomedical journals.

When you google a medical issue and PubMed (in JN's case--exertional sickling), you'll pull up the latest peer-reviewed studies on the subject like this one, and this one, and this one, among many...

<modsnip>To have their research indexed on Pubmed, it must first be published in a scientific or medical journal and indexed on Medline.

Dr. Chundru's testimony is based on solid medical research. Dr. Harris admitted she based COD on watching the video rather than waiting for the tox screen to come back.

All MOO

Dr Chundru also said he used the video to form part of his opinion.
You can't use the watching a video to inform an opinion to bash one professionals opinion, and laud it when it comes to the one you agree with! JMO
 
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  • #194
Dr Chundru also said he used the video to form part of his opinion.
You can't use the watching a video to inform an opinion to bash one professionals opinion, and laud it when it comes to the one you agree with! JMO
I'm not bashing anyone, but I feel Ms. Harris was lax in not waiting for the tox screen to render her opinion. MOO

And she stated that she knew by watching the video that JN was killed by the chokehold.

Thank goodness they have that video because it allowed Penny's former military trainer to explain that DP hadn't been using the chokehold in a way that would cause death.

What Harris thought she was seeing--wasn't really happening, according to the trainer and Dr. Chundru.

The difference is that Chundru used all the evidence to render a professional opinion. Harris omitted some and she got called out on it.

The video is an important piece of evidence, but some have misunderstood what they were seeing.

All MOO
 
  • #195
<modsnip: Quoted post was modsnipped>

The Medical Examiner spent 4 hours in front of the jury they will have all the information from both sides.

All imo
BBM
I agree with that.
 
  • #196
'Sorry if it's been discussed previously, but could someone explain the two tox reports for Neely? Is that standard?
 
  • #197
'Sorry if it's been discussed previously, but could someone explain the two tox reports for Neely? Is that standard?

I did not know there were two reports?
 
  • #198
I did not know there were two reports?

I was just reviewing this article that stated Dr Chundru reviewed two toxicology reports. (bbm) I suppose the 2nd report could have come from a different time period?

Chundru said he believed Neely died from “the combined effects of sickle cell crisis, the schizophrenia, the struggle and restraint and the synthetic marijuana” that was in his system. He said he had reviewed Neely’s autopsy report, two toxicology reports, genetic studies, photographs from the autopsy, “a couple of videos of the incident,” psychiatric records, witness statements and transcripts of police body camera video, among other things.


And, as an aside I realized Dr Harris was completing a fellowship and was "supervised" while performing Neely's autopsy.
ETA: Link regarding Harris' medical fellowship

jmo
 
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  • #199
I was just reviewing this article that stated Dr Chundru reviewed two toxicology reports. (bbm) I suppose the 2nd report could have come from a different time period?

Chundru said he believed Neely died from “the combined effects of sickle cell crisis, the schizophrenia, the struggle and restraint and the synthetic marijuana” that was in his system. He said he had reviewed Neely’s autopsy report, two toxicology reports, genetic studies, photographs from the autopsy, “a couple of videos of the incident,” psychiatric records, witness statements and transcripts of police body camera video, among other things.


And, as an aside I realized Dr Harris was completing a fellowship and was "supervised" while performing Neely's autopsy.
ETA: Link regarding Harris' medical fellowship

jmo
I thought the two different tox were 1 from his files and the other from his current tox, but it's not clear. Just my presumption.

I'd also read the same about Harris but that the senior supervisor agreed with the findings.
 
  • #200
As we reach the later hours of American Thanksgiving weekend, I want to reach across the divide on this case. I hope all of my American friends had a lovely weekend (whether with family or finding peace alone). I believe we all want the best for society. We may disagree with the details, but our goals are to make the world a better place.

I hope we find better ways to support the mentally ill. I also also hope we continue to step forward to protect others.

We can agree to disagree. But we are all human.
 
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