NOT GUILTY Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely #4

[Marysmith]

DP didn't set out to kill JN. I believe he honestly didn't think that his hold on JN was lethal. I know time stands still when I'm in a panic, and I'm not aware of anything in the moment except what I initially thought I should do. DP did not have a hero complex, I believe he had a thought to keep himself and others from harm, regardless to his danger in confronting a person that was so dirty that even LE wouldn't apply resuscitation because of worrying that they would be in danger of disease. How is this any difference than an auto accident? Yet people are not charged with manslaughter or sentenced to years in prison from that. Does every death, even accidental, have to be punishable by jail/prison time. JMO

I don't think anyone thinks he meant to kill Neely. And yes time can stand still in a crisis at times however an auto accident happens in seconds. This happened in minutes and people were telling him to stop. I'm sorry but it's not the same thing as an auto accident. And sometimes people are charged with manslaughter or similar due to an auto accident.
I'm sure Penny is a decent person in many ways but he made a big mistake here and it was lethal for someone else. He also had time to rectify the mistake and chose not to.
This case meets the definition of manslaughter at least.

 

[Lilibet]

How is this any difference than an auto accident? Yet people are not charged with manslaughter or sentenced to years in prison from that. Does every death, even accidental, have to be punishable by jail/prison time. JMO

Yes, of course drivers are charged with manslaughter if their reckless driving causes a fatal accident. Not every time, but it happens often enough. They aren’t always convicted. Just because someone didn’t mean for a fatal situation to happen doesn’t mean they aren’t responsible for causing it due to recklessness and negligence. If we respect human life, it’s certainly fair for the justice system to determine if someone should be charged and convicted or not. We can’t just shrug and say it’s not a big deal for some reason like the guy is a hero, he froze in the moment, we’re grateful he stepped in, etc. Excuse me for shouting, but SOMEONE DIED and his life was just as important as anyone else’s.

JMO

 

[Snoopster]

DP didn't set out to kill JN. I believe he honestly didn't think that his hold on JN was lethal. I know time stands still when I'm in a panic, and I'm not aware of anything in the moment except what I initially thought I should do. DP did not have a hero complex, I believe he had a thought to keep himself and others from harm, regardless to his danger in confronting a person a that was so dirty that even LE wouldn't apply resuscitation because of worrying that they would be in danger of disease. How is this any difference than an auto accident? Yet people are not charged with manslaughter or sentenced to years in prison from that. Does every death, even accidental, have to be punishable by jail/prison time. JMO

I appreciate your comment, but I don't totally agree with it.
In a car accident, often the person responsible for the accident didn't intend to have an accident.
In this situation the person that caused the death was specifically involved. He inserted himself into the situation and spent 6 minutes suffocating the 'threat'. I applaud him for stepping in, but I absolutely don't applaud him for choking someone so long that they died. That took less than 6 minutes.

 

[statiscons]

There’s nothing compassionate about allowing the criminally mentally insane to roam free and prey on the law abiding.
There’s nothing compassionate about allowing criminals to terrorize & destroy communities.
It’s an epic failure of government.
The government exists to protect criminals from its citizens, to enable a civilized society.
When the government & justice system continually and with purpose fails, citizens will take the law into their own hands.
It is going to get worse because criminality has become the norm in places like NYC.
You’re going to begin to see actual vigilantism soon.

What makes you say that criminality has become the norm in NYC? Genuinely curious. I've lived here for 30 years and it's one of the safest places I've ever been. Do you live here?

 

[fred&edna]

Yes, of course drivers are charged with manslaughter if their reckless driving causes a fatal accident. Not every time, but it happens often enough. They aren’t always convicted. Just because someone didn’t mean for a fatal situation to happen doesn’t mean they aren’t responsible for causing it due to recklessness and negligence. If we respect human life, it’s certainly fair for the justice system to determine if someone should be charged and convicted or not. We can’t just shrug and say it’s not a big deal for some reason like the guy is a hero, he froze in the moment, we’re grateful he stepped in, etc. Excuse me for shouting, but SOMEONE DIED and his life was just as important as anyone else’s.

JMO

I've never heard of a reckless driver who was trying to protect someone from threatening, unpredictable behavior (possible assault) of another human being. But, of course, I do miss things.

Jordan Neely's life was important EXCEPT to the man who put him on a watch list where NO one watched him! It wasn't until Neely's behavior terrified trapped innocent riders on NYC subway... then that man took notice. Maybe someone needs to explain the value of each life to him??

And, maybe each NYC resident needs to have a homeless, mentally-ill, illegal-drug using, buddy with a criminal history to watch and protect each day and night? Because obviously DA Bragg didn't and won't do it. Maybe each NYC resident can use this buddy-system AND take classes to learn "proportionate" force to protect each other? Maybe these residents could start up a company inventing proportionate force gauges with apps utilized by cell phones... we already know how everyone loves phone apps and videos. Bragg might love it, and do away with the NYPD altogether.


“It felt very scary,” the mother recalled. “It was increasingly loud, and it felt increasingly threatening. I would describe it as belligerent and unhinged. I actually took the stroller that I had and put it in front of my son to create a barrier of sorts.”

Sitro told the jury that she lived in the Big Apple for 30 years and had “seen a lot” riding the subways.

“I’ve seen unstable people. This felt different to me,” the mom explained.

Horrified mom barricaded 5-year-old behind stroller to shield him from ‘unhinged’ Jordan Neely: testimony

A mother described to jurors being so scared of a “belligerent and unhinged” Jordan Neely that she barricaded her 5-year-old son behind his stroller.

nypost.com

jmo

 

[Inthedetails]

What makes you say that criminality has become the norm in NYC? Genuinely curious. I've lived here for 30 years and it's one of the safest places I've ever been. Do you live here?

I've lived in NYC even longer than that and I agree 100%.

When locals pipe in on a WS thread, I try to thank them for offering local insights and mention I know it's hard to have a tragedy happen close to home in a place they love. I never realized until this case how hard it is to follow a WS thread about a local case and read disparaging comments about your home. The comments feel mean-spirited and, frankly, untrue. I will make sure I don't make such remarks about places in other cases going forward.

jmo

 

[GRT]

Regardless of any ailments, Mr Neely would have been VERY unlikely to die while on the train car if Mr Penny had not gotten involved and restrained him longer than necessary. So logically, Mr Penny’s action caused Mr Neely’s death.

JMO

Had anyone restrained JN -- in any fashion -- and he struggled against it that day, he was likely to die. Had the men just held him by his arms and legs--he likely would have died. IF he struggled against their restraint.

That's where the exertional sickling comes in. It wasn't DP stopping JN's breathing; it was JN's physical struggle that triggered the sickling event, according to Dr. Chundru.

Dr. Harris later agreed that the sickling was a factor. Once it was triggered, there was little chance JN would survive.

 

[Jade]

I took part in a one day study on what a jury observes. We were shown a short video of an actual assault case, listened to both the prosecution and defense closing statements. We were dismissed for lunch, then brought back and questioned on what we observed and what verdict we would give. None of us got everything right, what color clothing, hair color, facial or body features - we missed lots. In the end, we were told the actual verdict. That was an eye opener because we were all certain, yet mostly all wrong.

The video has told the story in this case. Video doesn’t lie or make errors.

The closeups are horrid. I feel for the jurors and others working this case to have to view it in slow motion along with the medical examiner’s description of Jordan’s suffering. I can’t bear to even glance at the at the still shot of Daniel Penny killing Jordan.


All imo

 

[IDK]

“Some in New York and around the country see Penny, a 26-year-old Marine veteran turned architecture student, as a valiant protector of fellow subway riders who feared the erratic Neely was on the verge of violence. Others view Penny as a white vigilante who summarily killed a Black man who was in need of help.”

“The case sparked demonstrations that lambasted Penny and rallies that lauded him. In the defense argument Monday, Raiser sought to undercut some prosecution witnesses' credibility by saying they were testifying "in the shadow of protesters" who gathered outside the courthouse to demand justice for Neely.“


“The defense says Penny held on because Neely tried to break loose at points and the pressure on the man's neck wasn't consistent enough to kill him.”

“Penny wanted only to hold Neely for police, and so used a "simple civilian restraint" instead of a "textbook chokehold" that would be applied to render someone unconscious, Raiser told jurors.”

"The police weren't there when the people on that train needed help. Danny was," the attorney said.”

“Yoran is due to finish her summation Tuesday. Jury instructions and deliberations will follow.”

Daniel Penny trial: Closing arguments expected to wrap up in chokehold trial; jury deliberation could begin Tuesday | abc7ny.com

Closing%20arguments%20are%20set%20to%20continue%20in%20the%20trial%20of%20Marine%20Daniel%20Penny%20charged%20with%20recklessly%20choking%20to%20death%20Jordan%20Neely%20on%20a%20NYC%20subway%20train.

abc7ny.com

 

[Jade]

The Defense have hung their hat on the notion that JN didn’t lose conscience so it wasn’t the chokehold:

[...]
Neely’s death was not consistent with a chokehold because he never lost consciousness before dying, he testified, saying instead Neely died of a combination of factors including his sickle cell trait, schizophrenia, the struggle and restraint by Penny and K2 intoxication.
[...]
https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/22/us/daniel-penny-trial-defense-jordan-neely/index.html

[...]
The investigation found that Neely was “engaged in a verbal dispute with a 24-year-old male” that escalated into a physical altercation, police said. During the “physical struggle,” Neely lost consciousness.
[…]
Neely was unconscious when police arrived, and he was pronounced dead at a hospital.
[…]
What we know about the chokehold death of Jordan Neely on a NYC subway

[...]
Video of the chokehold — which Harris said showed Neely’s face turning “purple” as Penny compressed the veins in his neck — shows that “there are no alternative reasonable explanations” for how he died, she testified.
[...]
Daniel Penny chokehold caused Jordan Neely death, even if homeless man had enough drugs in system to ‘put down an elephant’: ME testimony

[...]
She pointed out what she called Neely’s last “purposeful movement” — a final struggle to escape the chokehold — before his body stopped moving on its own.

At that point, he’d been in the grasp for more than five minutes, and Penny continued to hold onto his neck for 51 seconds after, according to video evidence.

As jurors watched journalist Juan Alberto Vasquez’s footage, Harris also picked out a moment, seconds later, where Neely’s toes slowly release tension and turn upward.

Those were some of the last, involuntary movements of a dying man, she testified.

“Watch the feet,” she told the jury.

“That, to me, looks like the twitchings that you see around death.”

The doctor then described another moment seconds after Penny let Neely go, in which Neely appears to arch his back while lying on the floor of the uptown F train at the Broadway-Lafayette station.

“That’s not breathing,” she testified, under questioning by prosecutors.

“That’s not voluntary. That’s the sign of a brain dying.”

Harris also explained why arriving police officers at first detected a faint pulse on Neely, before the pulse vanished soon after.
[...]
Daniel Penny chokehold caused Jordan Neely death, even if homeless man had enough drugs in system to ‘put down an elephant’: ME testimony

all imo

 

[Jade]

The defense strategy has changed I see:

[…]
Penny’s actions turned criminal when he kept holding Neely’s neck even after nearly all of the terrified straphangers had left the train car, and for 51 seconds after Neely passed out, she argued.
[…]
“There is no conceivable justification under the law, and human decency, to hold an unconscious man in a chokehold,” Yoran said, while displaying for jurors a still frame of a bystander’s video of Penny holding Neely’s neck.
[…]

“He had something the others didn’t, something unique to him. His training,” Raiser told the jury.

[…]
Yoran countered that Penny should have known from his Marine training that there were many other ways to restrain Neely other than keeping him in what turned out to be a fatal chokehold.

Penny “could have easily restrained Jordan Neely without choking him to death,” she told jurors.
[…]

Raiser also used the term “civilian restraint,” rather than a chokehold, to describe Penny’s actions.

‘Who would you want on the train with you?’: Defense lawyers make final plea to jurors, say Daniel Penny ‘acted when others didn’t’ in closing statement

[...]
Raiser said Penny "had something the others didn't, something unique to him, his training. Danny acted to save those people" not knowing whether Neely was armed or not.

The defense called the chokehold "simple civilian restraint,"

[...]
Daniel Penny trial enters closing arguments in Jordan Neely's subway chokehold death


DP's training is unique to him but yet he used a simple civilian restraint instead of his trained holds.

Interesting change after all the DP is a former MARINE with chokehold TRAINING.

Now it’s a "simple civilian restraint".

Guess that is an attempt to distance from the Marine Trainer testimony on the stand. Defense wants no part of a hold that is supposed to render unconscious.


[...]
…. Joseph Caballer, Penny's Marine Corps martial arts instructor, to the stand.
[…]
Caballer told the jury applying a choke properly would "render your aggressor unconscious," then they're told to release pressure immediately otherwise it "could lead to injury or death."
[…]
Caballer explained a "blood choke" is when pressure is applied to carotid arteries on both sides of the neck and should render someone unconscious in between eight to 13 seconds.
[…]

Prosecutors took him frame by frame through Penny's hold on Neely. At times, he testified Penny appeared to be doing a figure four variation – a form of a blood choke – but that he didn't appear to be doing it correctly.

In one particular frame, Caballer said it appeared Penny's forearm was pressing against Neely's trachea.

"So is this an improper blood choke?" prosecutors asked.

"Yeah," Caballer said.

"Is it potentially lethal?" prosecutors asked,

"Yes, absolutely," Caballer said.

Daniel Penny's martial arts instructor testifies in NYC subway chokehold death trial

Daniel Penny's martial arts instructor from the Marine Corps took the stand Thursday for day six of witness testimony in Penny's trial in the chokehold death of Jordan Neely.

www.cbsnews.com

all imo

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

https://www.courthousenews.com/defense-touts-daniel-pennys-softer-side-in-subway-manslaughter-trial-closing/

Daniel Penny’s attorneys on Monday tried to paint the U.S. Marine Corps veteran as a good Samaritan with a “softer side” in the closing arguments of his manslaughter trial in New York City.
....
Inviting a jury of Manhattanites to use their imagination, Penny’s attorney Steven Raiser encouraged them to picture themselves on Penny’s subway car on May 1, 2023 — the day that Neely stormed onto the train and started shouting at straphangers.

“It was a crowded car,” Raiser said. “Imagine for a moment that you’re on that train too, strangers brought together by fate, much like you are here.”

To set the scene, Raiser used a slideshow of photos from the subway accompanied by train sound effects — audio that was not in evidence, prompting an unsuccessful objection from prosecutors.

Raiser recounted witness testimony that described Neely as “violent and desperate” and “filled with rage.” Emphasizing Neely’s history of mental illness and use of synthetic cannabinoids, Raiser reminded the jury how terrified some subway riders were when Neely yelled his erratic threats.

“'I truly thought I was going to die,'” Raiser recalled witness Caedryn Schrunk saying in her November testimony.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

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[mzmarymac]

I have a different take on this than some people may, but here me out. When my brother died due to negligence by the hospital, we couldn't get a single attorney to take his case. Why? Because he had a multitude of comorbidities at the time. They were going to have a hard time proving that he would have not died anyway, or at least would have die very young, i.e. his life expectancy wasn't enough to garner an adequate wage loss to take on the case.

In situations like George Floyd, Eric Garner & Jordan Neeley, is that there needs to be some sort of acknowledgment or outside factors contributing to a death that may have very easily not resulted in death of a typical, healthy adult. For example (and feel free to disagree) when there is a copious amount of illegal substances present, or there is are other physical comorbidities present, i.e. obesity, unknown heart conditions, etc...these should be treated as mitigating factors.

Likewise, the actions of the individual should also be treated as mitigating factors. Was the person committing an illegal action? Was the person endangering the safety of others. Was the person actively participating in the altercation, i.e. fighting, kicking, punching. Additionally, the actions thereafter should have been taken into account, i.e. in this case, paramedics not performing lifesaving measures at the scene due to fear of contracting disease.

My point is this. Jordan Neeley was a troubled man who should NOT have been on the streets. Our mental health system, as well as his own family, failed this man. He should have been protected BEFORE all of this took place.

IMO, Daniel Penny did not go out that day looking for someone to kill. He ended up in the midst of a situation and felt that because of his training, he could protect those around him, which he did. It is NOT his fault that JN had a mental health problem, a drug problem, a homeless problem. And it isn't his fault that what he felt was a reasonable manner of subduing JN turned into death because of those comorbidities. DP is a hero and should never have been arrested and charged for his actions of simply trying to be a good citizen. And if you are one saying he should go to prison for what he did, perhaps ask the question as to why people don't intervene and just walk on past someone who is in a dangerous situation.

 

[shotgun09]

Looks like the state has completed their closing. Up next, judge reading jury instructions ( after a small break ).

Per Inner City Press:

'ADA Yoran: A fair evaluation of the evidence shows Daniel Penny is guilty. Members of the jury I ask you to hold the defendant accountable for his action[Protest chants waft in from street in front of the courthouse] '

Judge Wiley: Jurors, take a break.

Judge Wiley: I'll do my instructions even if we go past 1 pm. I'll be back in ten minutes.

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[GRT]

I have a different take on this than some people may, but here me out. When my brother died due to negligence by the hospital, we couldn't get a single attorney to take his case. Why? Because he had a multitude of comorbidities at the time. They were going to have a hard time proving that he would have not died anyway, or at least would have die very young, i.e. his life expectancy wasn't enough to garner an adequate wage loss to take on the case.

In situations like George Floyd, Eric Garner & Jordan Neeley, is that there needs to be some sort of acknowledgment or outside factors contributing to a death that may have very easily not resulted in death of a typical, healthy adult. For example (and feel free to disagree) when there is a copious amount of illegal substances present, or there is are other physical comorbidities present, i.e. obesity, unknown heart conditions, etc...these should be treated as mitigating factors.

Likewise, the actions of the individual should also be treated as mitigating factors. Was the person committing an illegal action? Was the person endangering the safety of others. Was the person actively participating in the altercation, i.e. fighting, kicking, punching. Additionally, the actions thereafter should have been taken into account, i.e. in this case, paramedics not performing lifesaving measures at the scene due to fear of contracting disease.

My point is this. Jordan Neeley was a troubled man who should NOT have been on the streets. Our mental health system, as well as his own family, failed this man. He should have been protected BEFORE all of this took place.

IMO, Daniel Penny did not go out that day looking for someone to kill. He ended up in the midst of a situation and felt that because of his training, he could protect those around him, which he did. It is NOT his fault that JN had a mental health problem, a drug problem, a homeless problem. And it isn't his fault that what he felt was a reasonable manner of subduing JN turned into death because of those comorbidities. DP is a hero and should never have been arrested and charged for his actions of simply trying to be a good citizen. And if you are one saying he should go to prison for what he did, perhaps ask the question as to why people don't intervene and just walk on past someone who is in a dangerous situation.

This truly sums up the entire event. I hope the jury is wise enough to understand this.

I'm sorry to hear about your brother.

 

[IceIce9]

<mmodsnip - quoted post was removed>


Often in the CPR/AED/First Aid classes I teach participants say they wouldn’t provide assistance to a stranger because they would be afraid of getting sued or arrested.

JMO and experience

 

[Marysmith]

Often in the CPR/AED/First Aid classes I teach participants say they wouldn’t provide assistance to a stranger because they would be afraid of getting sued or arrested.

JMO and experience

Most states have Good Samaritan laws though where you cannot get sued if you render aid to the best of your ability. There are also bag mask devices and other items available to help. I have rendered aid and don't regret it but if people are not comfortable doing so for whatever reason they should not.

 

[Jade]

George Floyd and Eric Garner were killed by sworn officers with the authority to enforce laws and hold legal powers to make an arrest which makes it especially awful but not the same as but much worst because of the trust they were given to act on behalf of the citizens, imo.

Jordan Neely was killed by a fellow citizen in a reckless manner.

[…]

Penny applied an “improper” version of the maneuver during last May’s subway takedown, the instructor, Joseph Caballer, testified.

Penny had been taught how to perform a “blood choke,” which is designed to knock someone out within 13 seconds after blocking the flow of blood to their brain, Caballer said.

Marines are taught to anchor their elbow in the middle of a target’s chest in such a move, Caballer said.

But after reviewing close-up footage of Penny’s chokehold of Neely on the floor of the train, Caballer testified that Penny had instead positioned his elbow closer to Neely’s left shoulder — with his forearm pressing into the homeless man’s windpipe.

Caballer added that Penny was taught that holding someone in a chokehold after they pass out could be deadly — and that Marines are taught to “release the pressure” on targets after they lose consciousness.

“Once the person is rendered unconscious, that’s when you’re supposed to let go,” Caballer, 30, testified.

Prosecutors say that Penny continued choking Neely for 51 seconds after his last “purposeful” movement,

Daniel Penny interrogation video reveals him telling detectives ‘I’m not trying to kill the guy’ hours after Jordan Neely’s chokehold death


[...]

Dismissively describing Neely as a “crackhead,” Penny said the victim had his back to him when Penny “just kind of got him in a hold” in an attempt to “deescalate” the situation.

“I get him down, he’s squirming around and stuff,” Penny said. “It seems like he’s resisting.

[…]

Asked several times about his method of restraint, Penny said he applied pressure when the subdued Neely got “a little bit of energy,” motioning a chokehold to the two detectives.

“When he starts to squirm, I hold him tighter,” Penny said.

[…]

“These guys are on the train all the time,” Penny said, but added that Neely seemed threatening. He quoted the victim as saying he was going to “kill everybody,” but Penny later said he didn’t know if those words were used or if Neely touched anyone.

Daniel Penny fights to suppress videos telling cops how he put Jordan Neely in fatal chokehold


all imo

 

[Ontario Mom]

Looks like the state has completed their closing. Up next, judge reading jury instructions ( after a small break ).

Per Inner City Press:

'ADA Yoran: A fair evaluation of the evidence shows Daniel Penny is guilty. Members of the jury I ask you to hold the defendant accountable for his action[Protest chants waft in from street in front of the courthouse] '

Judge Wiley: Jurors, take a break.

Judge Wiley: I'll do my instructions even if we go past 1 pm. I'll be back in ten minutes.

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I do wonder what those protesters are going to do IF the jury doesn't deliver the verdict they want.
More importantly, I wonder if the jurors are afraid of what they'll do, if they don't deliver the verdict the protesters are literally demanding, loud enough for the folks in the courtroom to hear them. I can't imagine this isn't going to factor into their decision.

jmo