NOT GUILTY Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely #4

[GRT]

The fact remains that Neely is the victim in this case. He is not on trial. He is dead. He could have eventually gotten his life together, gotten MH treatment, addiction treatment, etc... and lived a productive, happy life. But he didn't get that opportunity. Many people with MH and addiction issues, and yes, even criminal warrants, go on to do well in their lives.
IMO.

In a way, both DP and JN are on trial. MOO

The charges against DP—what's left—are based on the degree to which JN provoked or precipitated the encounter.

I don't know if JN could have been helped to the point where he could have lived a productive life. But, he was given the "opportunity" several times, and he wasn't able to overcome his mental illness. Maybe we're asking too much of some who have mental illness.

JN was a ticking time bomb. How is it that someone with 42 arrests is even allowed on the streets?

Something tells me there was no rosy future in store for JN, and he knew it. MOO

 

[GRT]

Any chance he had of living was gone by the time Penny finally released his hold on him. That is why he was not able to be revived. Because his breathing had been impaired for almost 6 minutes. No one could survive that. If he still had a chance of being undead he would be alive because the police would have been able to revive him. They really tried. But unfortunately Penny had already killed him with the chokehold that he chose to not release for 6 minutes.

According to Dr. Chundru, that's not what happened.

JN, who had SCT, suffered an exertional sickling event triggered by his struggle against being restrained in combination with having high levels of K2 in his blood, being schizophrenic, and being dehydrated.

The jury heard from DP's trainer that the chokehold wasn't the type used to kill--only restrain. And we know that's true because JN kept struggling for 5 minutes.

But, once a person experiences a sickling event like that, they seldom survive--for the same reason healthy athletes (with SCT) drop dead on the practice field.

A healthy person would have survived that day. That's all we need to know to figure out that DP isn't guilty of anything but helping his fellow citizens.

All MOO

 

[GRT]

To stop a verbal outburst. Let's just make that clear. A verbal outburst only. Not even directed at anyone.

Not to stop a verbal outburst.

Rather to stop that outburst from escalating into physical violence. Because all the signs pointed toward an escalation. How long should someone capable of stopping a madman wait to restrain him? Until he assaults someone? Kills someone?

Witnesses who were there that day testified they were in fear for their lives. It was JN's behavior that made them feel that way.

DP didn't kill JN. JN's illness, combined with the drugs in his system and his own actions, led to his death that day.

All MOO

 

[JennieM]

Not to stop a verbal outburst.

Rather to stop that outburst from escalating into physical violence. Because all the signs pointed toward an escalation. How long should someone capable of stopping a madman wait to restrain him? Until he assaults someone? Kills someone?

Witnesses who were there that day testified they were in fear for their lives. It was JN's behavior that made them feel that way.

DP didn't kill JN. JN's illness, combined with the drugs in his system and his own actions, led to his death that day.

All MOO

Being deprived of air for 6 minutes killed him that day.

 

[PuzzlinEvidence]

A healthy person would have survived that day. That's all we need to know to figure out that DP isn't guilty

No, the law doesn't generally work like that. You can be liable for an injury/death even where the victim was predisposed or might've survived if they were an 'ordinary' individual.

 

[Jade]

According to Dr. Chundru, that's not what happened.

JN, who had SCT, suffered an exertional sickling event triggered by his struggle against being restrained in combination with having high levels of K2 in his blood, being schizophrenic, and being dehydrated.

The jury heard from DP's trainer that the chokehold wasn't the type used to kill--only restrain. And we know that's true because JN kept struggling for 5 minutes.

But, once a person experiences a sickling event like that, they seldom survive--for the same reason healthy athletes (with SCT) drop dead on the practice field.

A healthy person would have survived that day. That's all we need to know to figure out that DP isn't guilty of anything but helping his fellow citizens.

All MOO

The trainer condemned the hold as improper and the Defense is now calling it a "simple civilian hold" in an attempt to distance from the Marine Trainer testimony on the stand. Defense wants no part of a hold that is supposed to render unconscious.

So we go from DP is a former MARINE with chokehold TRAINING to Danny just did a little ole civilian hold.


[...]
…. Joseph Caballer, Penny's Marine Corps martial arts instructor, to the stand.
[…]
Caballer told the jury applying a choke properly would "render your aggressor unconscious," then they're told to release pressure immediately otherwise it "could lead to injury or death."
[…]
Caballer explained a "blood choke" is when pressure is applied to carotid arteries on both sides of the neck and should render someone unconscious in between eight to 13 seconds.
[…]

Prosecutors took him frame by frame through Penny's hold on Neely. At times, he testified Penny appeared to be doing a figure four variation – a form of a blood choke – but that he didn't appear to be doing it correctly.

In one particular frame, Caballer said it appeared Penny's forearm was pressing against Neely's trachea.

"So is this an improper blood choke?" prosecutors asked.

"Yeah," Caballer said.

"Is it potentially lethal?" prosecutors asked,

"Yes, absolutely," Caballer said.

Daniel Penny's martial arts instructor testifies in NYC subway chokehold death trial

Daniel Penny's martial arts instructor from the Marine Corps took the stand Thursday for day six of witness testimony in Penny's trial in the chokehold death of Jordan Neely.

www.cbsnews.com

Jordan Neely struggled and suffered because Danny was inhumanely, improperly holding Jordan captive.


Chundru says its the kitchen sink cause everything but not the chokehold.




all imo

 

[Elley Mae]

“I feel a pulse,” one officer said, as a second officer confirmed that Neely “has a pulse” before he later died.

Shocking footage played at Daniel Penny trial shows officers saying Jordan Neely had a pulse

“I feel a pulse,” one officer said, as a second officer confirmed that Neely “has a pulse.”

nypost.com

 

[Jade]

“I feel a pulse,” one officer said, as a second officer confirmed that Neely “has a pulse” before he later died.

Shocking footage played at Daniel Penny trial shows officers saying Jordan Neely had a pulse

“I feel a pulse,” one officer said, as a second officer confirmed that Neely “has a pulse.”

nypost.com

Corroborates asphyxiation death. The brain dies first.

A pulse can be maintained for up to 10 minutes past brain death.


It “indicates he had a normally functioning heart in a dying body”, Harris testified.

Daniel Penny's chokehold was sole cause of Jordan Neely's death, medical examiner testifies

“It’s my medical opinion that there are no alternative reasonable explanations for Mr. Neely’s death,” the medical examiner, Dr. Cynthia Harris, told jurors Friday.

www.nbcnews.com

All imo

 

[Lilibet]

Jordan Neely struggled and suffered because Danny was inhumanely, improperly holding Jordan captive.


Chundru says its the kitchen sink cause everything but not the chokehold.

Exactly! The bottom line is that were it not for the chokehold, Mr Neely would not have died of Dr Chundru’s “kitchen sink” list of causes. I challenge anyone here not to struggle if held in a chokehold, cutting off your air supply. You’d fight to be released. If that exertion caused sickling, the exertion and oxygen deprivation leading to sickling was caused by the chokehold. If the sickling caused death, that sickling was caused by the chokehold

As many of us have said repeatedly, Mr Penny acted appropriately and heroically when he initially restrained Mr. Neely. That initial action is not the issue or part of the charges. I wish that it would no longer be part of the discussion. It’s irrelevant.

It’s possible to consider Mr Penny’s initial action heroic but believe that he killed a man due to recklessness and/or negligence that was unreasonable, especially when told to let go and that he was killing Mr Neely. Those are the charges.

It’s possible to hold those two opinions at the same time. But some seem to feel that if his initial action was heroic, the final result was equally heroic and acceptable. The killing of Mr Neely was not heroic, necessary or acceptable if one values human life, even that of a “cokehead” as Mr Penny called Mr. Neely.

Some are concerned that people will be afraid to step up and take action if Mr Penny is found guilty. My concern is that it will be “open season” to attack vulnerable unhoused and mentally ill citizens if the verdict is not guilty. And yes, I believe there should be better treatment options for these people and more security on the subways and streets of NYC and other affected cities. I’m not sure where the money is going to come from though. Some problems are just plain out of control and seem unsolvable IMO.

 

[Lilibet]

The charges against DP—what's left—are based on the degree to which JN provoked or precipitated the encounter.

No, the charges against Mr Penny are based on whether a reasonable person would continue to restrain Mr Neely in a chokehold beyond the point needed to protect other people, knowing he could die from oxygen deprivation.

No one has ever claimed that Mr Penny was wrong to restrain Mr Neely…initially.

 

[Lilibet]

I don't know if JN could have been helped to the point where he could have lived a productive life. But, he was given the "opportunity" several times, and he wasn't able to overcome his mental illness. Maybe we're asking too much of some who have mental illness.

So what do we do with someone like Mr. Neely?

 

[IDK]

Jordan Neely’s Father Sues Daniel Penny, Accusing Him of Assault

Andre Zachery claims that Mr. Penny, who put Mr. Neely in a chokehold on a subway train last year, caused his son’s death through “negligence, carelessness and recklessness.”

www.nytimes.com

 

[Jade]

Jordan Neely’s Father Sues Daniel Penny, Accusing Him of Assault

Andre Zachery claims that Mr. Penny, who put Mr. Neely in a chokehold on a subway train last year, caused his son’s death through “negligence, carelessness and recklessness.”

www.nytimes.com

A tort claim for negligence is common and expected in a case like this when there are deep pockets like DP has, imo.

 

[fred&edna]

So what do we do with someone like Mr. Neely?

Just some random thoughts off the topic of my head. The first step might be to do away with a "top 50 watch list" which doesn't protect anyone (in fact, I'm not sure what it does but I know someone's getting paid for it). Step 2 might be to have discussions with family members of those suffering mental illness and repeatedly commit crimes (what do they think), speak with medical psychiatric professionals, and combine all this with a serious discussion about illegal drug access/use. Then greater minds than mine, might move forward??

jmo

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Just some random thoughts off the topic of my head. The first step might be to do away with a "top 50 watch list" which doesn't protect anyone (in fact, I'm not sure what it does but I know someone's getting paid for it). Step 2 might be to have discussions with family members of those suffering mental illness and repeatedly commit crimes (what do they think), speak with medical psychiatric professionals, and combine all this with a serious discussion about illegal drug access/use. Then greater minds than mine, might move forward??

jmo

Before I start, this is a genuine question as I am not from the US. Just clearing that up so as not to come across as antagonistic.

Who pays for this? Is mental health treatment, especially in severe cases such as Jordan's, state funded or do families have to pay? Are the meds that people like Jordan need free, or would they have to pay for the prescriptions?.
Over here it's free and prescriptions are free if you cannot work or are on a low income, if not then they're charged at £9.90 per item.

What I am wondering is if someone can afford to be mentally ill, or if the street drugs are cheaper?

 

[fred&edna]

Before I start, this is a genuine question as I am not from the US. Just clearing that up so as not to come across as antagonistic.

Who pays for this? Is mental health treatment, especially in severe cases such as Jordan's, state funded or do families have to pay? Are the meds that people like Jordan need free, or would they have to pay for the prescriptions?.
Over here it's free and prescriptions are free if you cannot work or are on a low income, if not then they're charged at £9.90 per item.

What I am wondering is if someone can afford to be mentally ill, or if the street drugs are cheaper?

Here's some basic info on the types of healthcare available to NYC homeless. I'm sure there are others here who can provide more details and information but it's a good place to start. (And, I'll add, I know there are many who refuse medical treatment/intervention no matter if it's free or costly)

Care For the Homeless (CFH)

cfh

jmo

 

[IDK]

A tort claim for negligence is common and expected in a case like this when there are deep pockets like DP has, imo.

The excess funds from DP’s defense fund are slated to go towards mental health care and treatment. IMO it would be a shame for it go elsewhere.

 

[Donswife48]

To stop a verbal outburst. Let's just make that clear. A verbal outburst only. Not even directed at anyone.

Other witnesses recalled fearing for their lives, saying Neely made “half-lunge movements” toward other passengers.

Daniel Penny manslaughter charge dismissed after judge considers mistrial

Daniel Penny's manslaughter charge has been dismissed after the jury was unable to reach a unanimous decision after four days of deliberations. The New

www.washingtonexaminer.com

 

[Jade]

The excess funds from DP’s defense fund are slated to go towards mental health care and treatment. IMO it would be a shame for it go elsewhere.

Whatever money is left over at the conclusion of civil and criminal cases says the attorneys.

So once DP and his expensive attorneys and consultants get done with the funds if anything is left they will donate.

Sort of a strange donation like an admission to right a wrong.

I would think something more aligned with Danny not being ashamed and the Marines considering the notes with the donations.

It doesn’t appear donating to mental health care is why the donors sent money to Danny so I won’t be surprised if that never happens.

Marine vet Daniel Penny defense fund nears $3M in Jordan Neely chokehold death as DA tips hand on evidence

Donations and evidence mount for a Marine vet charged with killing subway busker Jordan Neely. The Marine training manual is part of the DA's case.

www.businessinsider.com

All imo

 

[IDK]

Whatever money is left over at the conclusion of civil and criminal cases says the attorneys.

So once DP and his expensive attorneys and consultants get done with the funds if anything is left they will donate.

Sort of a strange donation like an admission to right a wrong.

I would think something more aligned with Danny not being ashamed and the Marines considering the notes with the donations.

It doesn’t appear donating to mental health care is why the donors sent money to Danny so I won’t be surprised if that never happens.

Marine vet Daniel Penny defense fund nears $3M in Jordan Neely chokehold death as DA tips hand on evidence

Donations and evidence mount for a Marine vet charged with killing subway busker Jordan Neely. The Marine training manual is part of the DA's case.

www.businessinsider.com

All imo

You are certainly entitled to your own opinion.