NOT GUILTY Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely #4

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  • #21
"In February, Mr. Neely, who had been in jail on an assault charge for punching a 67-year-old woman and breaking several bones in her face..."

No two ways about it, that man was a dangerous, violent criminal. I'm sorry he died. I'm sorry he didn't get whatever mental health help he really needed. I'm sorry Penny ran into him that day. The whole thing is a rotten disaster that could have been avoided, had the "system" that had Neely on a watch list, actually worked.

jmo
 
  • #22
IMO:
This is the must watch biggy to see why the defense tried to get DP's interrogation from being shown to the jurors.
Stay with it.

@ 24:20 is when DP clarified to the detectives the lie he previously told them about how long he held JN in the chokehold.

 
  • #23
DP was trained in the Marines and knew how to administer a chokehold and he knew how long was safe, yet DP held the chokehold for considerably longer than he was trained to do. That time would be deadly for anyone, not just someone with sickle cell trait.

It was testified at trial that DP used a blood choke.

Here's info about a blood choke from the Marine website (DP would have had more training as this info is for tan belts and DP earned a green):

“A properly applied blood choke can knock out an enemy in less than eight seconds,” said Karnes. “Trying to restrict air to a victim can take close to a minute, which is enough time for the enemy to fight back.”

DP held the choke for MINUTES (plural).

The claim JN died because he struggled and sickle cell got him requires a need to struggle - and that need was a chokehold. The chokehold killed him and it would've killed someone who didn't have sickle cell trait. imo

DP was trained by the Marines, earned a green belt which shows he knew what he was taught, and he used a hold he knew was deadly when held as long as he held it. imo

??? I'm confused with all the names of the chokeholds I've seen in the trial and reporting.

Since the choke DP used didn't render JN immediately (in secs) unconscious DP still used a lethal choke and would apply then release pressure throughout it which eventually from being deprived of oxygen JN became lifeless and brain dead?
 
  • #24
A properly applied blood choke can knock out an enemy in less than eight seconds,” said Karnes. “Trying to restrict air to a victim can take close to a minute, which is enough time for the enemy to fight back.”

DP held the choke for MINUTES (plural).
Respectfully snipped for focus...

That indicates that DP wasn't exerting enough force to kill JN. JN was violently resisting for minutes, which, according to the specialist, was one of the triggers of the sickling event that killed him.
 
  • #25
"In February, Mr. Neely, who had been in jail on an assault charge for punching a 67-year-old woman and breaking several bones in her face..."

No two ways about it, that man was a dangerous, violent criminal. I'm sorry he died. I'm sorry he didn't get whatever mental health help he really needed. I'm sorry Penny ran into him that day. The whole thing is a rotten disaster that could have been avoided, had the "system" that had Neely on a watch list, actually worked.

jmo

That's scary! That poor woman. And, that was just in February. Why was Neely on the streets?
 
  • #26
That's scary! That poor woman. And, that was just in February. Why was Neely on the streets?

Neely was put on a 'watch-list'........and no one was watching...

Alvin Bragg knew this made him look bad.....hence the charges on Penny. IMO
 
  • #27
From the defense opening statement:
While the state intends to argue that Penny never let up the initial pressure he placed on Neely's neck, the defense insists he made several attempts to loosen his grip, and that only had a light hold on Neely by the time he stopped fighting back.

Continuing opening statement:
'This struggle did last five to six minutes. But Danny was not, and could not, have been squeezing his neck. We know that because if he was, Neely would have passed out in the first minute,' Penny's lawyer, Daniel Kenniff said.

Further opening statements from defense:
Kenniff argued that Penny had only intended to intervene until police could come and take over.

'Something that took way longer than expected,' he said.

From the time police received the dispatch call, it took seven minutes for first responders to arrive.

It was then another 10 minutes before emergency services arrived with a defibrillator and more resources.

I've served on juries before. I have doubt over when JN died. 7 Min until police arrived after being called, a further 10 minutes pass before emergency services begin to administer aid. The time delay of lack of care from professionals could have been the contributing factor for JN's death. If he would have been attended to immediately, would he have been saved? I hope the jury is not swayed by outside influences. JMO

BBM:
IMO:
According to defense attorney Kenniff DP was holding JN in a choke for 5-6 mins so how is that possible when DP told interrogation detectives he released JN from the hold as soon as he got confirmation from the other man who was holding JN"s hands that "he got him"?

around 24:00 it begins

 
  • #28
"In February, Mr. Neely, who had been in jail on an assault charge for punching a 67-year-old woman and breaking several bones in her face..."

No two ways about it, that man was a dangerous, violent criminal. I'm sorry he died. I'm sorry he didn't get whatever mental health help he really needed. I'm sorry Penny ran into him that day. The whole thing is a rotten disaster that could have been avoided, had the "system" that had Neely on a watch list, actually worked.

jmo
We can all agree on that! But that's not what the trial is about. There is a specific defendant facing specific charges because of specific actions that were taken that the prosecutor contends broke the law.

We've seen countless cases on WS where the system failed a victim of murder/manslaughter. <modsnip>

jmopinion
 
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  • #29
I believe that Jordan Neely is the victim, as well as Daniel Penny. Both are victims of a dangerously failed court system, as well as Health and Human Services system. ( 50 most watched list )

Who is watching the watchers? ( No one )

Who is watching when the watchers aren't watching? ( D Penny)

MOO and Peace
 
  • #30
Respectfully snipped for focus...

That indicates that DP wasn't exerting enough force to kill JN. JN was violently resisting for minutes, which, according to the specialist, was one of the triggers of the sickling event that killed him.

Specialist? I didn't think there was a sickle cell specialist that testified?
 
  • #31
The question now is whether the jury will understand what Dr.Chundru explained to them. If they do, DP will likely be found not guilty. If, like Dr. Harris, they don't understand it, they might find him guilty.

If Chundru is correct, and there's no reason to think he isn't, JN would have died had DP and the others restraining him chosen to simply hold one arm or leg.

Because JN died of exertional sickling, not a chokehold. It was JN's violent resistance to being restrained that triggered the sickling event. JN's mental illness contributed to his heightened state of anxiety, while the drugs in his system and his SCT combined to push his body into the sickling event that killed him.

Dr. Harris gave her best opinion, but she's just an MD who focuses on autopsies. She's par for the course in most cities. Dr. Chundru, on the other hand, is an actual forensic pathologist, someone who was first a doctor and then did a residency in forensic pathology. I hope Dr. Harris will now take it upon herself to learn what exertional sickling is because 9% of African Americans carry SCT, and they, too, are at risk.

There are only two questions the jurors need to ask themselves now:

Would a healthy person have died under DP's restraint that day? The answer is NO.
Would JN have died had he been restrained in a different fashion? As long as he was violently resisting, the answer is YES.

JMOO

Many peer-reviewed studies are out there about exertional sickling such as this one, this one, and this one.
BBM:
Dr. Harris is a medical examiner who is also a forensic pathologist .

"Dr. Harris gave her best opinion, but she's just an MD who focuses on autopsies. She's par for the course in most cities. Dr. Chundru, on the other hand, is an actual forensic pathologist, someone who was first a doctor and then did a residency in forensic pathology. I hope Dr. Harris will now take it upon herself to learn what exertional sickling is because 9% of African Americans carry SCT, and they, too, are at risk."


Pathology Outlines
https://www.pathologyoutlines.com › directory › cynthi...





cynthia harris ny pathology from www.pathologyoutlines.com
Feb 21, 2024 — Cynthia Harris, MD, Institution: Office of Chief Medical Examiner, New York City, Location: Massachusetts, Subspecialties: Autopsy & forensics.
 
  • #32
Neely was put on a 'watch-list'........and no one was watching...

Alvin Bragg knew this made him look bad.....hence the charges on Penny. IMO
If JN hadn't died that day, this incident would not have even made the papers and would not have made anyone look bad. It would've been a subway altercation and the cops were called to handle it.

What made it "look bad" was that a man died after DP choked him.

Yes, a dead man looks bad. I agree.

jmo
 
  • #33
The question now is whether the jury will understand what Dr.Chundru explained to them. If they do, DP will likely be found not guilty. If, like Dr. Harris, they don't understand it, they might find him guilty.

If Chundru is correct, and there's no reason to think he isn't, JN would have died had DP and the others restraining him chosen to simply hold one arm or leg.

Because JN died of exertional sickling, not a chokehold. It was JN's violent resistance to being restrained that triggered the sickling event. JN's mental illness contributed to his heightened state of anxiety, while the drugs in his system and his SCT combined to push his body into the sickling event that killed him.

Dr. Harris gave her best opinion, but she's just an MD who focuses on autopsies. She's par for the course in most cities. Dr. Chundru, on the other hand, is an actual forensic pathologist, someone who was first a doctor and then did a residency in forensic pathology. I hope Dr. Harris will now take it upon herself to learn what exertional sickling is because 9% of African Americans carry SCT, and they, too, are at risk.

There are only two questions the jurors need to ask themselves now:

Would a healthy person have died under DP's restraint that day? The answer is NO.
Would JN have died had he been restrained in a different fashion? As long as he was violently resisting, the answer is YES.

JMOO

Many peer-reviewed studies are out there about exertional sickling such as this one, this one, and this one.
BBM:
IMO:
In regards to your "peer review" links.

When Dr Harris quoted the "American Association of Pathology" findings on SCT which disputes Dr Chundru's claim that JP's sickled cells found in his autopsy is what caused his lack of oxygen intake from resisting being restrained and not the chokehold.

She threw a whopper of a wrench into his expert claims.
Cells "sickle" during the rigor mortis process.

The ASP lays it all out here in pretty simple terms.

 
  • #34
That's scary! That poor woman. And, that was just in February. Why was Neely on the streets?

He was on the streets because he took a plea deal after attacking that woman, that required him to remain at a treatment center for 15 months, stay on his meds, stay out of trouble and not abuse drugs. He stayed for 2 weeks and then just walked out. He had a warrant out for his arrest the day he stepped on that train.

 
  • #35
If JN hadn't died that day, this incident would not have even made the papers and would not have made anyone look bad. It would've been a subway altercation and the cops were called to handle it.

What made it "look bad" was that a man died after DP choked him.

Yes, a dead man looks bad. I agree.

jmo
Yes, and pressing charges against the man who killed him only served to make all of the public very aware of the entire situation, so if Alvin Bragg had wanted to not draw more attention to the matter, then he certainly would not have wanted to pursue charges. Making this a criminal case, imo, did nothing to help Bragg look better in the eyes of the public. But it had to done regardless, because the video had been seen, and it clearly shows the act of manslaughter, if not murder, by DP, despite whatever good intentions DP may have had, imo.
 
  • #36

I do wonder if it had turned out that Jordan Neely had no criminal record, no record of violence at all, would people still blame him for his death at the hands of Daniel Penny. Would there be more empathy for him if he was "just" mentally ill?
I think that's another thing we can never know for sure. JMO
IMO.
Having the K2 in his system would have been enough even though there's no test to determine the level in one's body or when they took it.

His resisting while held in the choke to supposedly prevent him from killing someone also works because it's the "had he broken loose" line.
 
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  • #37
I don't know if it's an open session to reporters?

"Prosecutors, defense lawyers and the judge are set to meet Monday to hash out jury instructions.'


 
  • #38
Folks,
Stop with the repetitive back and forth posts expressing your obviously divided opinions. Agree to disagree and move on! Discuss the case and trial, not hypothetical ‘could have’ or ‘should have’ scenarios.

Thanks!

Mad
 
  • #39
Have closing arguments been made yet?
 
  • #40
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