NOT GUILTY Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely #4

[IceIce9]

The house-of-cards case against Daniel Penny is falling apart

On Friday the defense rested in the Daniel Penny trial, leaving many observers to ask what Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg was thinking in pursuing this case.

nypost.com

But a host of prosecution witnesses, Penny’s fellow passengers, knocked massive holes in that tale, as one after another veteran subway rider described how terror-stricken they felt while trapped in the train car with the angry, unstable, threatening Neely.

One woman said she “was scared s–tless” by Neely’s behavior and recalled him yelling: “I don’t give a damn. I will kill a motherf—er. I’m ready to die.”

She stuck around after the ordeal to thank Penny for defending her and everyone else in the car that day.

Another, a high school student, said she was “so nervous” that she feared she “was going to pass out,” and said she didn’t hear other passengers’ warning to Penny to let go of Neely during the struggle

 

[Marysmith]

Respectfully snipped by me for focus...

I don't know why the judge allowed the admission of the arrest warrant--but because he did, we're allowed to discuss it.

I agree that DP could have been a hero at first but then went too far. That's a *possible scenario* in the realm of scenarios, but I don't think it happened.

The jury heard testimony that a sleeper-type chokehold, or blood choke, which is what DP was using, could kill someone very quickly--before a minute even. To me, that indicates DP was not using full force on JN's neck but rather just restraining him. I think that's also why he had his legs around JN -- he could have restrained him with just the chokehold, but he put his legs around him, which also allowed DP to use less pressure around the neck.

Because JN didn't go unconscious in just a few seconds, I feel DP was using restraint and not applying deadly pressure.

That's why I think Dr. Chundru made the right call and Dr. Harris made an incorrect one.

Chundru explained that the restraint was one of the factors that led to JN's death -- but that's because JN was already in a state of anxiety, he was on drugs, he was schizophrenic, and he struggled violently against the restraining. It was his physical exertion -- similar to that of an athlete on a playing field who has SCT -- that led to the sickling event.

At first, I thought DP did something wrong, too, but now that Chundru testified, and I've watched the video several times, I think he is right.

Of course, that's all JMOO...

But, one interesting thing -- we're having more time to discuss this one than usual because the jury is taking quite a long holiday break!

Just one comment respectfully - just because someone has a diagnosis of schizophrenia doesn't make them any more physically aggressive then someone who does not. There are actually plenty of people who have a schizophrenic diagnosis who have never been physically aggressive even when in the throes of psychosis.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Respectfully snipped by me for focus...

I don't know why the judge allowed the admission of the arrest warrant--but because he did, we're allowed to discuss it.

I agree that DP could have been a hero at first but then went too far. That's a *possible scenario* in the realm of scenarios, but I don't think it happened.

The jury heard testimony that a sleeper-type chokehold, or blood choke, which is what DP was using, could kill someone very quickly--before a minute even. To me, that indicates DP was not using full force on JN's neck but rather just restraining him. I think that's also why he had his legs around JN -- he could have restrained him with just the chokehold, but he put his legs around him, which also allowed DP to use less pressure around the neck.

Because JN didn't go unconscious in just a few seconds, I feel DP was using restraint and not applying deadly pressure.

That's why I think Dr. Chundru made the right call and Dr. Harris made an incorrect one.

Chundru explained that the restraint was one of the factors that led to JN's death -- but that's because JN was already in a state of anxiety, he was on drugs, he was schizophrenic, and he struggled violently against the restraining. It was his physical exertion -- similar to that of an athlete on a playing field who has SCT -- that led to the sickling event.

At first, I thought DP did something wrong, too, but now that Chundru testified, and I've watched the video several times, I think he is right.

Of course, that's all JMOO...

But, one interesting thing -- we're having more time to discuss this one than usual because the jury is taking quite a long holiday break!

One thing that seemed off to me was Harris calling the COD without tox. Imagining myself as a juror, that would have immediately caused some doubts. Although, I've followed true crime forever so that IS a red flag for me, that might not have been (initially) for the jurors, until it was pointed out. Then, hearing what Chundru said, only made those doubts even more profound.

The way these chokeholds have been described (I think we've heard 3 different names of different types) it almost seems overly obvious that none of them, or whatever variation of any of them that he was using, were being lethally applied. Lethally applied, JN would have never had the chance to fight back and struggle as long as he did (as awful as that sounds). I suspect based on the type of restraint DP was using, that may have also had a a lot to do with why he never asked about JN after the fact. If he believed he was using a simple, non-lethal restraining hold, he'd never have any reason to even suspect JN had died.

I'm usually the first to criticize criminal defense but in this case, the expert testimony filled in the missing pieces.

jmo

 

[sunspun]

One thing that seemed off to me was Harris calling the COD without tox. Imagining myself as a juror, that would have immediately caused some doubts. Although, I've followed true crime forever so that IS a red flag for me, that might not have been (initially) for the jurors, until it was pointed out. Then, hearing what Chundru said, only made those doubts even more profound.

The way these chokeholds have been described (I think we've heard 3 different names of different types) it almost seems overly obvious that none of them, or whatever variation of any of them that he was using, were being lethally applied. Lethally applied, JN would have never had the chance to fight back and struggle as long as he did (as awful as that sounds). I suspect based on the type of restraint DP was using, that may have also had a a lot to do with why he never asked about JN after the fact. If he believed he was using a simple, non-lethal restraining hold, he'd never have any reason to even suspect JN had died.

I'm usually the first to criticize criminal defense but in this case, the expert testimony filled in the missing pieces.

jmo

But didn't DP witness first responders giving CPR to JN when they were all still on the subway? Wasn't DP standing right there then? Or do I have that part wrong?

I thought he was standing there beside them and would've been able to see what they were doing to JN, as well as hear things they were saying. If so, I don't see how he could have thought he was going to be ok.

 

[shotgun09]

But didn't DP witness first responders giving CPR to JN when they were all still on the subway? Wasn't DP standing right there then? Or do I have that part wrong?

I thought he was standing there beside them and would've been able to see what they were doing to JN, as well as hear things they were saying. If so, I don't see how he could have thought he was going to be ok.

I believe that DP was standing besides LE First Responders, and more than likely heard the words " He's got a pulse", and the words " He's breathing". Both were testified to in court.
IMO

 

[Ontario Mom]

But didn't DP witness first responders giving CPR to JN when they were all still on the subway? Wasn't DP standing right there then? Or do I have that part wrong?

I thought he was standing there beside them and would've been able to see what they were doing to JN, as well as hear things they were saying. If so, I don't see how he could have thought he was going to be ok.

I'm not entirely clear on that, and I don't know if it ever was cleared up. I've seen similar questions about this on this thread & in the media but I've never seen it fully explained how long he remained there after LE showed up, what he heard/knew/etc.

 

[LinasK]

It’s relevant because Brian Kempf, the final witness, testified about why JN had an open arrest warrant. MOO, it was to establish the level of aggression JN was capable of so the jury would understand how serious the threat from JN was before DP stepped in.

I don't believe that's true. Past behavior is not a guarantee of current or future behavior, and it's irrelevant because Daniel Penny didn't know Neely's history. It'd be like shooting him first because you assumed that he had a gun and would use it.

 

[LinasK]

Respectfully snipped by me for focus...

I don't know why the judge allowed the admission of the arrest warrant--but because he did, we're allowed to discuss it.

I agree that DP could have been a hero at first but then went too far. That's a *possible scenario* in the realm of scenarios, but I don't think it happened.

The jury heard testimony that a sleeper-type chokehold, or blood choke, which is what DP was using, could kill someone very quickly--before a minute even. To me, that indicates DP was not using full force on JN's neck but rather just restraining him. I think that's also why he had his legs around JN -- he could have restrained him with just the chokehold, but he put his legs around him, which also allowed DP to use less pressure around the neck.

Because JN didn't go unconscious in just a few seconds, I feel DP was using restraint and not applying deadly pressure.

That's why I think Dr. Chundru made the right call and Dr. Harris made an incorrect one.

Chundru explained that the restraint was one of the factors that led to JN's death -- but that's because JN was already in a state of anxiety, he was on drugs, he was schizophrenic, and he struggled violently against the restraining. It was his physical exertion -- similar to that of an athlete on a playing field who has SCT -- that led to the sickling event.

At first, I thought DP did something wrong, too, but now that Chundru testified, and I've watched the video several times, I think he is right.

Of course, that's all JMOO...

But, one interesting thing -- we're having more time to discuss this one than usual because the jury is taking quite a long holiday break!

But you keep ignoring the fact that it's been pointed out more than once by medical professionals that sickling doesn't occur in seconds or minutes; therefore, it couldn't be the cause of death.

 

[GRT]

But you keep ignoring the fact that it's been pointed out more than once by medical professionals that sickling doesn't occur in seconds or minutes; therefore, it couldn't be the cause of death.

I'm not ignoring that Dr. Harris said it, but Dr. Chundru disputed it and several peer-reviewed cases dispute that as well.

 

[GRT]

I don't believe that's true. Past behavior is not a guarantee of current or future behavior, and it's irrelevant because Daniel Penny didn't know Neely's history. It'd be like shooting him first because you assumed that he had a gun and would use it.

If it wasn't relevant in some manner, why do you suppose the judge allowed it into testimony?

 

[LinasK]

If it wasn't relevant in some manner, why do you suppose the judge allowed it into testimony?

The judge also allowed into evidence the fact that Jordan Neely was unarmed.

 

[LinasK]

I'm not ignoring that Dr. Harris said it, but Dr. Chundru disputed it and several peer-reviewed cases dispute that as well.

And I don't find Dr. Chundru credible.

 

[GRT]

The judge also allowed into evidence the fact that Jordan Neely was unarmed.

And that, too, was relevant. MOO

I don't always get why judges allow and block the evidence they do, but it seems that they usually have good reasons. I've seen cases where judges wouldn't let in evidence of past arrests so I'm guessing the judge in this case felt it was something the jurors needed to know to render an informed verdict. MOO

Now, I'm wondering how long deliberations will last once closing arguments are made on Dec 2nd. I think they'll be relatively short, maybe even the same day, but I could very well be wrong. MOO

 

[GRT]

And I don't find Dr. Chundru credible.

That's fair. I get that.

I felt similarly about Dr. Harris.

 

[sunspun]

If it wasn't relevant in some manner, why do you suppose the judge allowed it into testimony?

I was surprised they did. Since this wasn't info that DP had any knowledge of at the time of the incident.

 

[sunspun]

I'm guessing the judge in this case felt it was something the jurors needed to know to render an informed verdict. MOO

But how can it be something jurors need to know to be informed if it is something DP didn't know? I just can't see how that's true, but they must think it made sense as they did it and with no objections, or if there were, they were overturned/denied.

 

[Ontario Mom]

And that, too, was relevant. MOO

I don't always get why judges allow and block the evidence they do, but it seems that they usually have good reasons. I've seen cases where judges wouldn't let in evidence of past arrests so I'm guessing the judge in this case felt it was something the jurors needed to know to render an informed verdict. MOO

Now, I'm wondering how long deliberations will last once closing arguments are made on Dec 2nd. I think they'll be relatively short, maybe even the same day, but I could very well be wrong. MOO

I'm somewhat expecting same day but only because they'll each (individually) have had extra time to process all they heard & saw. Once they re-convene my guess would be mostly all of them will already have their minds made up.

 

[Sillybilly]

It’s relevant because Brian Kempf, the final witness, testified about why JN had an open arrest warrant. MOO, it was to establish the level of aggression JN was capable of so the jury would understand how serious the threat from JN was before DP stepped in.

If JN knew there was an open arrest warrant, it could explain his comment about (paraphrased) not caring if he died or went to jail.

JMO

 

[Lilibet]

If JN knew there was an open arrest warrant, it could explain his comment about (paraphrased) not caring if he died or went to jail.

JMO

That’s a good point @Sillybilly. He sounded like a man who had given up and didn’t care what happened to him.
I don’t recall seeing a convincing source from the beginning saying that he said he was going to kill people.

 

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