NOT GUILTY Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely #4

[Deleted member 39678]

That's your interpretation. We won't know until the verdict is in.

That's why I put JMO in my post.

 

[Donswife48]

I guess I just don't understand the controversy surrounding this case. An officer of the law would never deprive someone of their life and final breath just because they were undergoing a mental health crisis. Why should some wannabe vigilante be granted that option?

And yet an officer of the law determined it was not safe to properly administer cpr thus depriving him of his final breath. He still had a weak pulse when the police finally showed up, but it took the emergency response team 10 addn'l minutes to render aid.

 

[Donswife48]

The existence of the video showing Jordan Neely dying in real time is an available fact!

So when did he die? I'm sorry but I can't tell. Perhaps you can break down the moment for me.

 

[chaoticidealism]

So when did he die? I'm sorry but I can't tell. Perhaps you can break down the moment for me.

Well, you can't use the video to diagnose brain-death, but you can use it to tell when he stopped breathing.

The exact moment of death isn't necessarily the important thing, though; it's the cause of death that's critical. If you shoot a man and he dies immediately, you've caused his death; if you shoot a man and cause a grave disability that then leads to his death ten years later, you've also caused his death.

 

[Sillybilly]

Daniel Penny jury fixated on single piece of testimony

The New York City jury tasked with determining whether Marine veteran Daniel Penny committed manslaughter when he put homeless man Jordan Neely in a chokehold have zeroed-in on testimony.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Interesting, that the medical examiner determined cause of death from watching a video, rather than evidence based on empirical standards of practice for her position.

Catching up, so sorry if this has already been addressed:

The whole quote was: "Dr. Cynthia Harris had testified that bystander video of Penny's six-minute encounter with Neely onboard the F train in Manhattan, as well as investigative findings gave her all the information she needed to declare that Neely died of compression to the neck,"

IMO, that sounds pretty much the equivalent of "totality of the evidence".

 

[Marysmith]

And yet an officer of the law determined it was not safe to properly administer cpr thus depriving him of his final breath. He still had a weak pulse when the police finally showed up, but it took the emergency response team 10 addn'l minutes to render aid.

Again that's not what happened. They did compressions and used an automatic defibrillator to attempt to revive him and they couldn't. He was already gone - a weak pulse is not life sustaining. There was nothing more to do. The standard procedure is that and *if* you have a barrier device you can attempt rescue breaths in addition to the above but the above is the gold standard - which was done. They did not have a barrier device at the time. Having that would not have revived him. The American Heart Association now advocates for strong chest compressions above all which is what has been proven to help revive someone the most. Rescue breaths would never revive someone who has no heartbeat.

 

[LinasK]

And yet an officer of the law determined it was not safe to properly administer cpr thus depriving him of his final breath. He still had a weak pulse when the police finally showed up, but it took the emergency response team 10 addn'l minutes to render aid.

That's not correct. It WAS safe to do chest compressions. There are safeguards in place for mouth-mouth resuscitation. IceIce can elaborate. She's a paramedic.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

The whole quote was: "Dr. Cynthia Harris had testified that bystander video of Penny's six-minute encounter with Neely onboard the F train in Manhattan, as well as investigative findings gave her all the information she needed to declare that Neely died of compression to the neck,"

IMO, that sounds pretty much the equivalent of "totality of the evidence".

Totality of the evidence would include using the toxicology test results in order to issue the death certificate.

Someone on this jury is interested in this lapse by the ME. JMO.

On the second day of deliberations, the anonymous jury also asked to rehear part of a city medical examiner’s testimony. The request included her testimony about issuing a death certificate without getting toxicology test results for Jordan Neely, the agitated subway rider whom Penny held around the neck for roughly six minutes.

Jury revisits key videos in NYC subway chokehold death trial

Jurors have asked to review police and bystander video at the heart of the New York City chokehold manslaughter case against Daniel Penny.

apnews.com

 

[Lilibet]

Totality of the evidence would include using the toxicology test results in order to issue the death certificate.

Again, would Mr Neely have died of K2 in that subway car if Mr Penny had not kept his arm around his neck for so many minutes? It’s unlikely. The amount of K2 in his system could not be measured and the medical examiner said the sickling was due to oxygen deprivation. Mr Penny’s actions caused Mr Neely’s death despite the presence of other conditions.

If toxicology test results indicated a potentially different cause of death, the death certificate could have been amended.

Medical examiner testifies in trial of Daniel Penny for NYC subway chokehold death

A medical examiner testified Friday in the trial of Daniel Penny, who has been charged in connection to the 2023 chokehold death of Jordan Neely on a New York City subway.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Again, would Mr Neely have died of K2 in that subway car if Mr Penny had not kept his arm around his neck for so many minutes? It’s unlikely. The amount of K2 in his system could not be measured and the medical examiner said the sickling was due to oxygen deprivation. Mr Penny’s actions caused Mr Neely’s death despite the presence of other conditions.

If toxicology test results indicated a potentially different cause of death, the death certificate could have been amended.

Medical examiner testifies in trial of Daniel Penny for NYC subway chokehold death

A medical examiner testified Friday in the trial of Daniel Penny, who has been charged in connection to the 2023 chokehold death of Jordan Neely on a New York City subway.

www.cbsnews.com

I think it's probable that Neely died from issues like the K2 and sickling. JMO.

He said Neely died from "the combined effects" of synthetic marijuana, schizophrenia, his struggle and restraint, and a blood condition that can lead to fatal complications during exertion.

Penny's attorney has also suggested because Neely was in a psychotic state and high on K2, it triggered a sickling crisis that led to a lack of oxygen, causing his death.

Defense in Daniel Penny case rests without client taking the stand in NYC subway chokehold death

Closing arguments are expected after the Thanksgiving holiday.

abc30.com

 

[chaoticidealism]

Again, would Mr Neely have died of K2 in that subway car if Mr Penny had not kept his arm around his neck for so many minutes? It’s unlikely. The amount of K2 in his system could not be measured and the medical examiner said the sickling was due to oxygen deprivation. Mr Penny’s actions caused Mr Neely’s death despite the presence of other conditions.

I agree with that analysis. When a victim has underlying health conditions that make them more vulnerable to violence, that almost never absolves the person who assaulted them. The only way it could possibly do so is if the suspect's actions would be judged, by any reasonable person, to be unlikely to result in harm to anyone; or if the victim's health was so extremely poor that they were already dying at the time. I don't believe strangling someone in a chokehold for six minutes, even after he goes unconscious and loses control of his bladder, could possibly be construed as unlikely to result in harm, even to a robustly healthy person. And by all accounts, Jordan Neely was not dying when he was put in that chokehold; he was conscious, talking, and angry at the world's injustice.

 

[Lilibet]

I think it's probable that Neely died from issues like the K2 and sickling. JMO.

I think we may be getting tangled up between the “cause, the “manner,” and the “mechanism” of death. While the K2 and sickling were present, would they have independently caused Mr Neely’s death at that time in the subway car without the manner or “circumstances surrounding his death”, and the “mechanism of death,” the prolonged neck hold? The defense expert did not convince me that he would have died anyway. The ME convinced me that his cause of death was “injury that led to physiologic changes resulting in death.” The mechanism of death was the “immediate physiologic derangement resulting in death”….”asphyxia” from the prolonged chokehold.

Cause, manner, mechanism of death & death certificate

Cause of death: natural disease or injury that led to physiologic changes resulting in death; manner of death: circumstances surrounding death

www.pathologyoutlines.com

• Cause of death: natural disease or injury that led to physiologic changes resulting in death
  • Acute event (e.g., motor vehicle collision, gunshot wound to the head, sudden death in previously healthy individuals)
  • Chronic event (e.g., complications related to atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease, malignancy, etc.)
• Manner of death: circumstances surrounding death (how the death came about / how the injury or disease leads to death)
  • Mainly based on scene investigation, interviews with next of kin, review of medical history / records, autopsy and ancillary studies (studies (toxicology, histopathology, vitreous chemistry, microbiology, etc.)
• Mechanism of death: immediate physiologic derangement resulting in death (e.g., hemorrhage, sepsis, asphyxia), which is not etiologically specific

BBM
JMO

 

[Lilibet]

I agree with that analysis. When a victim has underlying health conditions that make them more vulnerable to violence, that almost never absolves the person who assaulted them. The only way it could possibly do so is if the suspect's actions would be judged, by any reasonable person, to be unlikely to result in harm to anyone; or if the victim's health was so extremely poor that they were already dying at the time. I don't believe strangling someone in a chokehold for six minutes, even after he goes unconscious and loses control of his bladder, could possibly be construed as unlikely to result in harm, even to a robustly healthy person. And by all accounts, Jordan Neely was not dying when he was put in that chokehold; he was conscious, talking, and angry at the world's injustice.

Welcome to Websleuths, @chaoticidealism!

 

[GRT]

Again that's not what happened. They did compressions and used an automatic defibrillator to attempt to revive him and they couldn't. He was already gone - a weak pulse is not life sustaining. There was nothing more to do. The standard procedure is that and *if* you have a barrier device you can attempt rescue breaths in addition to the above but the above is the gold standard - which was done. They did not have a barrier device at the time. Having that would not have revived him. The American Heart Association now advocates for strong chest compressions above all which is what has been proven to help revive someone the most. Rescue breaths would never revive someone who has no heartbeat.

If Dr. Chundru is correct, neither (strong compressions/barrier device) would have revived him.

 

[GRT]

The existence of the video showing Jordan Neely dying in real time is an available fact!

Right! It shows him squirming until about 50 seconds before DP released him.

What it doesn't show is what was happening inside his body at that time. It doesn't show the chemical event triggered by a combination of straining against restraint, synthetic drugs, SCT, and schizophrenia that killed him.

The ME jumped the gun on her assessment and then, during cross, she admitted she couldn't tell whether DP was applying enough pressure to kill JN.

 

[JennieM]

Right! It shows him squirming until about 50 seconds before DP released him.

What it doesn't show is what was happening inside his body at that time. It doesn't show the chemical event triggered by a combination of straining against restraint, synthetic drugs, SCT, and schizophrenia that killed him.

The ME jumped the gun on her assessment and then, during cross, she admitted she couldn't tell whether DP was applying enough pressure to kill JN.

It was DP’s hand that killed him, remove that and Jordan would have remained alive.

 

[GRT]

It was DP’s hand that killed him, remove that and Jordan would have remained alive.

That's like saying that if JN had never gotten on the car that day, he would have remained alive. Reductionism might make us feel good, but it's not always the case--as in this case.

Had DP and the other men held JN by his arms and legs and not in a chokehold, he still could have died--had he struggled, which triggered the sickling event.

All MOO

 

[Jade]

Right! It shows him squirming until about 50 seconds before DP released him.

What it doesn't show is what was happening inside his body at that time. It doesn't show the chemical event triggered by a combination of straining against restraint, synthetic drugs, SCT, and schizophrenia that killed him.

The ME jumped the gun on her assessment and then, during cross, she admitted she couldn't tell whether DP was applying enough pressure to kill JN.

DP helpfully supplied that information in his interview.

He said every time Jordan got “some energy” or struggled he applied more pressure.

MSM reports show the video collaborated that sequence of applied pressure until and past Jordan went limp.

(….)
The video….showed -frame by frame- Penny appearing to increase the presssure of the chokehold as Neely tries to escape
(…)

Jordan Neely looked like he was trying to ‘escape’ Daniel Penny’s chokehold: witness

A city straphanger who jumped in to try to help Daniel Penny restrain Jordan Neely told jurors Tuesday that the troubled homeless man looked like he was trying to “escape” the Marine veteran’s chok…

nypost.com

All imo

 

[JennieM]

That's like saying that if JN had never gotten on the car that day, he would have remained alive. Reductionism might make us feel good, but it's not always the case--as in this case.

Had DP and the other men held JN by his arms and legs and not in a chokehold, he still could have died--had he struggled, which triggered the sickling event.

All MOO

No, it’s not like saying that. <modsnip>

 

[GRT]

No, it’s not like saying that. Whether you like it or not, Daniel killed Jordan.

Not if Dr. Chundru is correct.