Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely

[Izzylizzy]

I have no problem admitting that I am among those who greatly appreciate what Penny did. I wouldn't call him a savior, but I'd call him courageous for sure. I can't answer for why he didn't let go sooner than he did. I guess it's possible in the heat of the moment he wasn't sure if Neely would start acting up again so he just held on a bit longer - for the same reason he subdued him in the first place.

jmo

Penny had 2 other guys holding Neely down with him while continuing to chokehold him.

 

[Izzylizzy]

MOO but I think anyone who has ever felt threatened by an aggressive homeless person would appreciate Daniel Penny.

Homeless people have attacked and injured innocent pedestrians and subway passengers. Even Jordan Neely had assaulted people in the past.

A New York City police spokesperson told Newsweek that Neely's record has 42 prior arrests, dating between 2013 and 2021. They include four for alleged assault, while others involved accusations of transit fraud and criminal trespass. At the time of his death, Neely had one active warrant for an alleged assault in connection with a 2021 incident.

Jordan Neely's arrest record examined as outrage grows over subway death

Neely, 30, died after he was restrained by other riders on a Manhattan subway, including one who put him in a chokehold for several minutes.

www.newsweek.com

I don't know what if any of Neely's criminal history will be allowed in by the Judge but none of it would negate Penny's 6 min chokehold while getting help from 2 guys and being warned by a bystander.

Jordan Neely: What happened in NYC subway chokehold case?

Video shows Daniel Penny with his arms around Jordan Neely's neck for about two minutes and 55 seconds.

www.bbc.com

 

[Ontario Mom]

MOO but I think anyone who has ever felt threatened by an aggressive homeless person would appreciate Daniel Penny.

Homeless people have attacked and injured innocent pedestrians and subway passengers. Even Jordan Neely had assaulted people in the past.

A New York City police spokesperson told Newsweek that Neely's record has 42 prior arrests, dating between 2013 and 2021. They include four for alleged assault, while others involved accusations of transit fraud and criminal trespass. At the time of his death, Neely had one active warrant for an alleged assault in connection with a 2021 incident.

Jordan Neely's arrest record examined as outrage grows over subway death

Neely, 30, died after he was restrained by other riders on a Manhattan subway, including one who put him in a chokehold for several minutes.

www.newsweek.com

I do recall learning about Neely's violent criminal past at the time but had forgotten how extensive it was.
His own prior conduct proved he was in fact, a threat to those folks on the train.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I don't know what if any of Neely's criminal history will be allowed in by the Judge but none of it would negate Penny's 6 min chokehold while getting help from 2 guys and being warned by a bystander.

Jordan Neely: What happened in NYC subway chokehold case?

Video shows Daniel Penny with his arms around Jordan Neely's neck for about two minutes and 55 seconds.

www.bbc.com

I don't know if it will either, since it's not as if Penny knew any of that to base his decision on.
All he knew was what he and the other passengers saw & heard & he reacted to that.

That aside, we the public, do know Neely was in fact a threat to people & had a violent criminal history.
Regardless of whether that is allowed in court, those are the facts.

 

[Inthedetails]

I don't know what if any of Neely's criminal history will be allowed in by the Judge but none of it would negate Penny's 6 min chokehold while getting help from 2 guys and being warned by a bystander.

Jordan Neely: What happened in NYC subway chokehold case?

Video shows Daniel Penny with his arms around Jordan Neely's neck for about two minutes and 55 seconds.

www.bbc.com

I'm not seeing why a VICTIM'S criminal past would be admitted in court. He's not on trial.

jmo

 

[Izzylizzy]

I'm not seeing why a VICTIM'S criminal past would be admitted in court. He's not on trial.

jmo

I thought of it remembering that the judge in the Chauvin trial approved of some info from one of Floyd's prior arrests could be used by the defense.
It's not usually permitted even by the prosecution against a defendent.
There's limited info being reported on this trial and it's not televised.
I know Penny's defense tried to keep the chokehold video and Penny's interview with police out of the trial but the judge ruled it can be entered by the prosecution.

 

[Inthedetails]

I thought of it remembering that the judge in the Chauvin trial approved of some info from one of Floyd's prior arrests could be used by the defense.
It's not usually permitted even by the prosecution against a defendent.
There's limited info being reported on this trial and it's not televised.
I know Penny's defense tried to keep the chokehold video and Penny's interview with police out of the trial but the judge ruled it can be entered by the prosecution.

Chauvin knew Floyd and I think that is different than this case when the defendant did not know the victim. In this case, they were strangers on the subway who didn't know each other's pasts.

Like I said upthread, I have a complicated response to this case, but on this specific issue of the victim's criminal past, I don't think it should be entered into court as I don't see how it's relevant to the decisions and actions the defendant took. My opinion.

jmo

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Chauvin knew Floyd and I think that is different than this case when the defendant did not know the victim. In this case, they were strangers on the subway who didn't know each other's pasts.

Like I said upthread, I have a complicated response to this case, but on this specific issue of the victim's criminal past, I don't think it should be entered into court as I don't see how it's relevant to the decisions and actions the defendant took. My opinion.

jmo

I agree. Daniel Penny had no prior knowledge or experience of Jordan Neely when he encountered him that day on the subway train and his actions need to be judged based on that.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I don't know if it will either, since it's not as if Penny knew any of that to base his decision on.
All he knew was what he and the other passengers saw & heard & he reacted to that.

That aside, we the public, do know Neely was in fact a threat to people & had a violent criminal history.
Regardless of whether that is allowed in court, those are the facts.

I do recall learning about Neely's violent criminal past at the time but had forgotten how extensive it was.
His own prior conduct proved he was in fact, a threat to those folks on the train.

When Neely was put in a chokehold he wasn't wielding a weapon and he didn't physically attack anyone.

Police found no weapon on him.

https://www.newsnationnow.com/crime/daniel-penny-court-appearance/

Chauvin knew Floyd and I think that is different than this case when the defendant did not know the victim. In this case, they were strangers on the subway who didn't know each other's pasts.

Like I said upthread, I have a complicated response to this case, but on this specific issue of the victim's criminal past, I don't think it should be entered into court as I don't see how it's relevant to the decisions and actions the defendant took. My opinion.

jmo

BBM:
I look for how the judge ruled on Neely's criminal record.

The judge in Chauvin's trial allowed info from one prior arrest of Floyd's to be entered as evidence by the defense,
IIRC: it was the "claustrophobia" and maybe the "I can't breathe".?


'Daniel Penny, charged in death of Jordan Neely, has pre-trial hearing'

'Penny’s attorneys said their client “never intended to harm” Neely and that he was just trying to protect others.

Prosecutors are asking the judge to ban testimony that includes Neely’s psychiatric history and K2 abuse, arguing it would unfairly damage his reputation and that information is irrelevant. Defense attorneys, however, say it is “crucial” for the jury to understand Neely’s behavior, and the justification for Penny’s action.

Jury selection in the trial is set to begin Oct. 21.'


https://www.newsnationnow.com/crime/daniel-penny-court-appearance/

 

[Izzylizzy]

I don't see the defense having asked for Neely's criminal records to be entered as evidence but it appears that they got a yes from the judge for Nelly's extensive medical records and an expert to testify about them.
I keep reading that the judge is letting all the evidence in that was requested by both state and prosecution.

Judge Rejects Requests To Exclude Evidence In Daniel Penny Trial For Jordan Neely's Death

In the trial of Daniel Penny, accused of fatally choking Jordan Neely on a New York City subway in 2023, a judge ruled on Friday that all evidence will be allowed in court. The case, which centers on Penny, a 25-year-old former Marine, and Neely, a 30-year-old homeless man, has garnered...

www.knowyourrightscamp.org

 

[Izzylizzy]

'Ex-Marine Daniel Penny should have known chokehold would kill Jordan Neely because of military training, warnings: prosecutors'
Nov. 15, 2023

'Among these was their contention that Penny couldn’t be held accountable for killing Neely because his death was “not foreseeable.”

“The notion that death is not a foreseeable consequence of squeezing someone’s neck for six minutes is beyond the pale,” Steinglass wrote — adding that the grand jury saw “considerable evidence” that Penny was trained to use the dangerous chokeholds by the US Marines.

“The defendant’s own trainer testified that even though ‘chokes’ are taught as a means of non-lethal restraint, students are specifically cautioned during training that a choke can be fatal to the person being held,” the filing said.

Even if they had not been, the forward to the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program manual clearly states that the “[t]echniques described in this manual can cause serious injury or death,” Steinglass wrote.

cont
https://nypost.com/2023/11/15/metro...ry-training-warnings-from-others-prosecutors/

 

[Izzylizzy]

Wow!
Penny's trainer from the Marines testified before the Grand Jury.

"Among these was their contention that Penny couldn’t be held accountable for killing Neely because his death was “not foreseeable.”

“The notion that death is not a foreseeable consequence of squeezing someone’s neck for six minutes is beyond the pale,” Steinglass wrote — adding that the grand jury saw “considerable evidence” that Penny was trained to use the dangerous chokeholds by the US Marines.

“The defendant’s own trainer testified that even though ‘chokes’ are taught as a means of non-lethal restraint, students are specifically cautioned during training that a choke can be fatal to the person being held,” the filing said.'

https://nypost.com/2023/11/15/metro...ry-training-warnings-from-others-prosecutors/

 

[Izzylizzy]

NY is the only state that completely bans televised trials.
Hopefully one of the news outlets does live updates from inside the courtroom.
Jordan Neely musta have had "purple hair" at one time. s/

'Opening statements to begin Friday in Daniel Penny trial over Jordan Neely subway death'
'Daniel Penny is charged in the chokehold death of Jordan Neely in a NYC subway'

"The jury was seated Wednesday. The jury is comprised of 7 women and 5 men. There are four people of color.

The Manhattan district attorney’s office filed a motion accusing the defense of eliminating certain potential jurors based on race. At the time, the defense used their challenges to strike at least 10 people of color.

Prosecutors cited a Black woman with purple hair that defense attorneys struck after pointing out the hair color as among the reasons they wanted her off the jury."

cont
https://abcnews.go.com/US/opening-s...-daniel-penny-trial-jordan/story?id=115213409

 

[Izzylizzy]

Opening statements to begin Friday in Daniel Penny trial over Jordan Neely subway death

Opening statements will begin Friday in the trial of subway rider Daniel Penny charged in the May 2023 choking death of Jordan Neely, a homeless man, in New York City.

abcnews.go.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

Great jury make-up.
12 + 4 alternate.
Prosecutors accused defense of racism for striking certain jurors and the judge stepped in.
Very tense between state and defense all day with jury not present.

Pretty good update.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

That's not a great look for the defence!

 

[Izzylizzy]

Penny's defense is he was protecting others and himself, according to his lawyers.

Not looking good.

'New York's self-defense laws include the following:'

• Imminent threat: You must reasonably believe you or someone else is in immediate danger of death or serious physical injury.
  
  
• Proportional force: The force you use must be proportional to the threat.
  
  
• Duty to retreat: If you can safely retreat, you must do so before using deadly force, unless you are in your own home. This is known as the "Castle Doctrine".
  
  
• Excessive force: Using excessive force can lead to criminal charges.
  
  
• Initial aggressor: You cannot claim self-defense if you were the initial aggressor or provoked the attack

 

[Izzylizzy]

That's not a great look for the defence!

Personal politics is going on behind the scene with this case.
I wouldn't be surprised if Penny's current lawyer Kenniff contacted him due to it was Alan Bragg's office who brought the charges against Penny.


"Mr Penny is represented by attorneys with the firm Raiser and Kenniff, whose founding partners were both in the armed services. Thomas Kenniff also unsuccessfully ran for Manhattan district attorney as a Republican in 2021, ultimately losing to Alvin Bragg, who received more than 82 per cent of the vote."

Everything we know about Daniel Penny, filmed fatally choking Jordan Neely

A subway passenger fatally choked a homeless street performer on the Manhattan F train

www.the-independent.com

 

[Ontario Mom]

Personal politics is going on behind the scene with this case.
I wouldn't be surprised if Penny's current lawyer Kenniff contacted him due to it was Alan Bragg's office who brought the charges against Penny.


"Mr Penny is represented by attorneys with the firm Raiser and Kenniff, whose founding partners were both in the armed services. Thomas Kenniff also unsuccessfully ran for Manhattan district attorney as a Republican in 2021, ultimately losing to Alvin Bragg, who received more than 82 per cent of the vote."

Everything we know about Daniel Penny, filmed fatally choking Jordan Neely

A subway passenger fatally choked a homeless street performer on the Manhattan F train

www.the-independent.com

While I certainly can't prove it, I suspect there's a personal, political thing going on, on both sides of this case.

jmo

 

[Izzylizzy]

It's no wonder Penny's defense tried to get the comments Penny made at the scene and later at the police station thrown out.

IMO:
This speaks volumes on just how unconcerned and unaffected Penny was about what he just done to a man and the condition he left him in.
I don't know if the info is available when LE told Penny that Neely had died.
Neely was unconscious then pronounced dead at the hospital.
Did he pass in the subway car on the way to the hospital?
That's some ****ed up dude right there, "a test".

snip:

"Ms. Yoran said that the defendant himself believed that he wasn’t arrested, referring to a point when Mr. Penny asked detectives how long his interview would take, telling them that he had a test."

“But I’m not detained or anything,” he said.

Penny Minimized Duration of Chokehold During Questioning, Video Shows