Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely

[LinasK]

Yes.

I don't believe that a person has to give a drug test or mental health evaluation before taking action to prevent an individual who is threatening to kill people from doing so.

What matters in this case is that there was an out of control person who was a serious and real threat to the safety of innocent people on the subway. The defendant protected those people from harm. JMO.

We don't know that he protected anyone. The threats may have been just that- verbal threats only. They weren't directed at anyone specific. None of us has eyes into the future to see what the outcome of not intervening would have been. (In a show called Fringe- those people were called Observers).

 

[IceIce9]

And that may be justified, but Penny's behavior in response wasn't. People should have fled to another car, or gotten off, or contacted a police officer.

What if they are elderly, disabled, or with small children? Or just frozen in fear?

It isn’t always easy to just jump off the train or move to another car. And apparently a police officer wasn’t near enough to help.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

We don't know that he protected anyone. The threats may have been just that- verbal threats only. They weren't directed at anyone specific. None of us has eyes into the future to see what the outcome of not intervening would have been. (In a show called Fringe- those people were called Observers).

I think he did.

And JN definitely directed those threats at innocent people. Unless he was so out of it he was threatening people who were not even there. That thought is even more disconcerting and scary. JMO.

 

[Cryptic]

Why weren't there police on the train trained to deescalate a threatening person?

I suspect that it would be a lack of resources. There are both NYPD and New York's version of the transport police in stations and on trains.

But.... needless to say, the sub way system is huge and runs 24/7/365. It may be impossible to ensure that every train and every station have officer presence all the time.

Though I am not intimately familiar with NYC, I have walked the area several times. The train arrived at the Broadway Lafayette station. This is just north of the ubber trendy and nearly always tranquil Soho area. Likewise, the areas immediately to the north towards Union Square are good as well- though not like Soho.

As a result, given the time (early afternoon) and immediate areas, officer presence may of been given a lower priority. Any NYCers present who can give better input?

 

[Deleted member 296739]

We don't know that that's strictly true though. K2 has a half life of 41 days in the system, it could have been that day or a month or so previous to that day, that JN last partook.
There's no way to know for sure.

Exactly, could have been that hour or weeks before, but he was showing signs of perhaps being under the influence, and the evidence doesn’t disprove that… moo

 

[Izzylizzy]

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We don't know that that's strictly true though. K2 has a half life of 41 days in the system, it could have been that day or a month or so previous to that day, that JN last partook.
There's no way to know for sure.

It very well could have been a paranoid schizophrenia psychotic episode.

 

[LinasK]

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It very well could have been a paranoid schizophrenia psychotic episode.

That was my point as well. It could have been some medical condition causing him to act that way rather than drugs. Without a doctor examining him, no one can claim on the spot, that Neely' s behavior was the result of drug use.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

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It very well could have been a paranoid schizophrenia psychotic episode.

This was literally about to be my reply!

 

[Deleted member 296739]

You may have tons of experience as an EMT to know that, Penny didn't. Could have been caused by a medical condition for all he knew...

We don’t know DP’s experience or encounters with violent individuals under the influence… I can say personally, after many many years foster teen, and working with both the unhoused and justice involved populations - on encounter with an individual who is simultaneously under the influence of unknown substances, mentally unstable having an episode and off prescription medications is too many and life altering

And after the first, I both prepared and acted differently to protect myself and those around me and I have yet to be wrong when guessing one of my youth was high and unstable

I wasn’t there, but I could see myself making similar decisions in similar circumstances… moo

 

[Izzylizzy]

This was literally about to be my reply!

lol^^^^^^^

JN's PS is ignored.

 

[Deleted member 296739]

This was literally about to be my reply!

I think it was probably an episode brought on by substance use and noncompliance with prescription medication… doesn’t make him less dangerous… moo

 

[LinasK]

Exactly, could have been that hour or weeks before, but he was showing signs of perhaps being under the influence, and the evidence doesn’t disprove that… moo

Perhaps isn't reason enough to not contact LE and take the law into your own hands... That is my opinion and I stick by it.

 

[Deleted member 296739]

Perhaps isn't reason enough to not contact LE and take the law into your own hands... That is my opinion and I stick by it.

Which you are entitled to do, not sure how he would have contacted LE in the acute, but I desperately wish that there were more mental health services available for all people, housed or unhoused, employed or otherwise… moo

 

[Rolypolyoly]

I think it was probably an episode brought on by substance use and noncompliance with prescription medication… doesn’t make him less dangerous… moo

No, it doesn't, and he could be dangerous, we have all seen the evidence of his previous acts of violence. I'm not arguing that he couldn't be dangerous though. Either way though, drugs, no drugs, schizophrenia or not, isn't really the issue, as @Lilibet has posted several times, the issue is whether Penny was reckless.
As it turns out, JN wasn't the most dangerous person on the train that day. JMO.

 

[Deleted member 296739]

And that may be justified, but Penny's behavior in response wasn't. People should have fled to another car, or gotten off, or contacted a police officer.

I’m not sure that everyone every day needs to flee, change trains and or call LE - ideally JN would have been restrained, and taken into custody and or received the help that he needed, his erratic behavior (and likely his drug use) contributed to the response by DP and his subsequent death… it’s not victim blaming, had he hadn’t threatened to kill anyone, he would not have been restrained, if he had not ingested substances they would not have been in his system, and if he had been compliant with his medication he might not have been having an episode… does this justify vigilantism? No, and I do not believe this to be a case of targeted intentional homicide… moo jmo omo

 

[Deleted member 296739]

No, it doesn't, and he could be dangerous, we have all seen the evidence of his previous acts of violence. I'm not arguing that he couldn't be dangerous though. Either way though, drugs, no drugs, schizophrenia or not, isn't really the issue, as @Lilibet has posted several times, the issue is whether Penny was reckless.
As it turns out, JN wasn't the most dangerous person on the train that day. JMO.

Or maybe he was… I wasn’t there … and with only 6 minutes to decide, I don’t think a crime was necessarily committed… moo

 

[LinasK]

I’m not sure that everyone every day needs to flee, change trains and or call LE - ideally JN would have been restrained, and taken into custody and or received the help that he needed, his erratic behavior (and likely his drug use) contributed to the response by DP and his subsequent death… it’s not victim blaming, he he hadn’t threatened to kill anyone, he would not have been restrained, if he had not ingested substances they would not have been in his system, and if he had been compliant with his medication he might not have been having an episode… does this justify vigilantism? No, and I do not believe this to be a case of targeted intentional homicide… moo jmo omo

Restrained by LE, not a citizen acting as a vigilante, as I firmly believe Penny was.

 

[Deleted member 296739]

Restrained by LE, not a citizen acting as a vigilante, as I firmly believe Penny was.

There was not any LE present… IIRC

 

[LinasK]

Which you are entitled to do, not sure how he would have contacted LE in the acute, but I desperately wish that there were more mental health services available for all people, housed or unhoused, employed or otherwise… moo

As I said before, in other cities, can't speak for NY, they DO have police specifically for the subway. In the SF Bay area, they are known as the BART police, they are their own police force for the BART system, and they do ride the trains.

 

[Izzylizzy]

That was my point as well. It could have been some medical condition causing him to act that way rather than drugs. Without a doctor examining him, no one can claim on the spot, that Neely' s behavior was the result of drug use.

It was your point that made me think of his paranoid schizophrenia.
It got lost with all the K2 accusations for his behavior.
Thanks!