Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely

[LinasK]

It was your point that made me think of his paranoid schizophrenia.
It got lost with all the K2 accusations for his behavior.
Thanks!

Although I can't recall the case right now, I know that there's been instances of LE stopping people for acting drunk, and it turns out that they had no alcohol in their system. There are medical conditions like seizures and such that cause people to act weirdly and it's involuntary out of their control.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Today the court released DP's 30 min interrogation video with Detective Medina and another detective,
Up until now we've only seen snips.
This is the video the prosecution showed to the jury, the defense tried to have it not admitted.
In that hearing the judge allowed this 30 min video in and some parts of JN's medical records.
Both sides got something.

The news outlets that has the 30 min video is not an approved sources and I'll keep looking.

Getting this video before the jury was a big win for the prosection.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Restrained by LE, not a citizen acting as a vigilante, as I firmly believe Penny was.

Considering the state of NY never charged him with vigilantism, it appears fairly clear no evidence of that exists.
Accusing DP of that, while it may be your opinion, it's not factual in this case.

 

[Deleted member 296739]

As I said before, in other cities, can't speak for NY, they DO have police specifically for the subway. In the SF Bay area, they are known as the BART police, they are their own police force for the BART system, and they do ride the trains.

I think that there are LE for the metro in NYC, but not every car on every train … I could be wrong, but there were not any LE on that car that day

 

[Deleted member 296739]

It was your point that made me think of his paranoid schizophrenia.
It got lost with all the K2 accusations for his behavior.
Thanks!

I think the psychiatrist said that in court …

 

[Ontario Mom]

I wonder why the prosecutors felt the need to block important exculpatory evidence from the jury? My guess is because they know it will cause the jury to find reasonable doubt. JMO.

Daniel Penny trial: Subway madman claimed he heard Tupac and devil before deadly chokehold, shrink says

A forensic psychiatrist revealed Jordan Neely suffered from schizophrenic delusions and abused synthetic marijuana, two factors in increased violent behavior.

www.yahoo.com

I'd be stunned if jury members haven't already found cause for reasonable doubt. I certainly would, if I were on that jury.
But yes, I agree with you, in that blocking key facts would change juror's minds. I can only imagine it's a pretty delicate tight rope to walk, for both prosecution and defense. I don't envy either side.

 

[Deleted member 296739]

Considering the state of NY never charged him with vigilantism, it appears fairly clear no evidence of that exists.
Accusing DP of that, while it may be your opinion, it's not factual in this case.

He wasn’t accused of anything other than manslaughter, and negligent homicide, which I think personally is overcharging, and while it is an unfortunate accident that JN died, it was neither intentional nor negligent or reckless or vigilantism in this case … moo omo jmo

 

[Deleted member 296739]

I'd be stunned if jury members haven't already found cause for reasonable doubt. I certainly would, if I were on that jury.
But yes, I agree with you, in that blocking key facts would change juror's minds. I can only imagine it's a pretty delicate tight rope to walk, for both prosecution and defense. I don't envy either side.

Agreed on jury finding reasonable doubt and the difficulties in trying this case for both sides … moo

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I'd be stunned if jury members haven't already found cause for reasonable doubt. I certainly would, if I were on that jury.
But yes, I agree with you, in that blocking key facts would change juror's minds. I can only imagine it's a pretty delicate tight rope to walk, for both prosecution and defense. I don't envy either side.

Usually I see the defense trying to block certain evidence from the jury to help their client. In this case it seems like the state is the one who is trying to keep certain evidence from the jury. JMO.

 

[Izzylizzy]

For me, the stronger the intervention (lethal force) in this case, the more responsibility the intervener has to "do it right". Penny did not do that.

This responsibility is doubly so when the reason for the lethal intervention was based purely on what somebody "might do".

DP was a Marine Green Belt in martial arts.
With a Green Belt one can become an instructor.



"Penny served four years in the US Marines. He was a green belt in the Marine Corps martial arts program, learning several blood chokes designed to cut off blood flow to the brain and render someone unconscious, his martial arts instructor Joseph Caballer said."

https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/18/us/daniel-penny-trial-prosecution-rests/index.html#:~:text=Penny%20served%20four%20years%20in,arts%20instructor%20Joseph%20Caballer%20said.

Marine Corps Martial Arts Program - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Izzylizzy]

No, there's no legal justification for vigilanteism, which is exactly what Penny did. If an officer had acted the same way, he'd be charged for an officer-involved death.

I didn't know that in NY chokeholds are barred from LE using.
That said, Detective Medina who interrogated DP for 30 minutes was a Marine and the 2 spoke about their martial arts/chokeholds when in the Marines and he asked DP many questions about his chokehold, position, pressure etc.

I now find that really ironic since Medina legally is forbidden from using chokeholds and other possible lethal positions to subdue a suspect.

Court upholds NYC law banning the types of police restraints that killed George Floyd, Eric Garner

New York’s highest court has upheld a New York City law that forbids police from using chokeholds or compressing a person’s diaphragm during an arrest.

apnews.com

​

 

[mickey2942]

I view this far differently, I believe that DP was in fact, following a "Good Samaritan" law, helping people who were in danger. Therefore, he should be covered under this law, and not charged for any actions that caused a death or injury.

Good Samaritan law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Good Samaritan laws take their name from a parable found in the Bible, attributed to Jesus, commonly referred to as the Parable of the Good Samaritan which is contained in Luke 10:29–37. It recounts the aid given by a traveller from the area known as Samaria to another traveller of a conflicting religious and ethnic background who had been beaten and robbed by bandits.[4]".

In this case, Penny actually saved people from being beaten or robbed by Neely, he was definitely threatening physical harm to passengers. Penny didn't know that Neely was under the influence of drugs, or having a psychotic episode. He truly thought he was being a "Good Samaritan".

Therefore, his actions should be considered within the purview of rescue. Not murder.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I view this far differently, I believe that DP was in fact, following a "Good Samaritan" law, helping people who were in danger. Therefore, he should be covered under this law, and not charged for any actions that caused a death or injury.

Good Samaritan law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Good Samaritan laws take their name from a parable found in the Bible, attributed to Jesus, commonly referred to as the Parable of the Good Samaritan which is contained in Luke 10:29–37. It recounts the aid given by a traveller from the area known as Samaria to another traveller of a conflicting religious and ethnic background who had been beaten and robbed by bandits.[4]".

In this case, Penny actually saved people from being beaten or robbed by Neely, he was definitely threatening physical harm to passengers. Penny didn't know that Neely was under the influence of drugs, or having a psychotic episode. He truly thought he was being a "Good Samaritan".

Therefore, his actions should be considered within the purview of rescue. Not murder.

I don't see how NY Good Samaritan Laws apply to DP.
It's protection from civil lawsuits ($$$) for having administered medical aid to someone and protection from prosecution for calling 911 for drug overdoses, like if drugs are in clear view when LE arrived for the person who OD etc.


'Conclusion'

"As a result, these statutes are designed to encourage people to voluntarily render aid in emergency situations and call for help in overdose situations. Many emergency situations compel people to act first and think second, since there is little to no time for the latter. Fortunately, New York has some legal protections in place to shield "Good Samaritans" in these situations."

https://www.naylornetwork.com/nfc-nwl/articles/index.asp?aid=421840&issueID=52612

 

[Lilibet]

Therefore, his actions should be considered within the purview of rescue. Not murder.

BBM
He isn’t charged with murder. He’s charged with manslaughter.

 

[Lilibet]

I view this far differently, I believe that DP was in fact, following a "Good Samaritan" law, helping people who were in danger. Therefore, he should be covered under this law, and not charged for any actions that caused a death or injury.

The Good Samaritan law covers helping someone who is ill, injured, etc. I don’t get the sense that it covers restraining someone so they don’t hurt or injure others.

Good Samaritan laws offer legal protection to people who give reasonable assistance to those who are, or whom they believe to be injured, ill, in peril, or otherwise incapacitated.<a href="Good Samaritan law - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a>

Good Samaritan law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Sillybilly]

I was just thinking out loud- he said he was going to kill somebody, but didn’t…

Would it follow that if he pulled a gun and didn’t shoot that no intervening is necessary?

What if he had a weapon that was concealed? Would that have impacted charges being filed?

What if he died from a heart attack just after the choke hold?

I don’t see how DP could be expected to know all of the variables, and I have no idea what he was thinking or feeling or experiencing time while in the acute of the situation-

But I’ve got the benefit of hindsight, DP did not,

if it would have made a difference in someone’s mind if JN had passed of a heart attack and had been found with weapons on his person, then I think giving DP the benefit of the doubt might be warranted and it’s a terrible accident but not manslaughter or negligent homicide and no crime was committed… jmo moo ymmv

Maybe I missed it but I don't recall that JN said he was going to kill somebody, only to the effect that he was (paraphrased) " ... hungry, thirsty, had little to live for, would take a bullet, didn’t care if he died or went to jail".

Just wanting clarification for the record going forward, so would appreciate a link if someone can drum one up.

Thanks !!

 

[Deleted member 296739]

Maybe I missed it but I don't recall that JN said he was going to kill somebody, only to the effect that he was (paraphrased) " ... hungry, thirsty, had little to live for, would take a bullet, didn’t care if he died or went to jail".

Just wanting clarification for the record going forward, so would appreciate a link if someone can drum one up.

Thanks !!

Daniel Penny says Jordan Neely threatened to kill subway riders before deadly chokehold on video released by his attorneys

Penny said he was acting in self-defense while Jordan Neely made threats and acted erratically on the train.

www.cbsnews.com

Witnesses in Subway Chokehold Case Describe Fears of Death and Violence (Published 2023)

In a request that the case be tossed out, lawyers for the defendant, Daniel Penny, drew on testimony from passengers who described their unease before Mr. Penny intervened.

www.nytimes.com

Daniel Penny trial: Defense lawyers argue he protected others, prosecutors say he ‘went too far’ as NYC subway manslaughter trial begins | CNN

The prosecution and defense painted dueling portraits of Daniel Penny in opening statements Friday in the former Marine’s manslaughter trial in the chokehold death of Jordan Neely on the New York City subway last year.

amp.cnn.com

Those are some articles where I’d seen it reported that JN had threatened to kill…

Not sure you’re looking for something more specific…

 

[Inthedetails]

I think that there are LE for the metro in NYC, but not every car on every train … I could be wrong, but there were not any LE on that car that day

As a NYC subway rider, I can attest there are not LEO on every car or every train or at every station. But LE is in the system.

But to me, that is not the point in this criminal case.

The point is what the charges are.

DP held JN in a chokehold beyond what was necessary to subdue him and DP killed JN.

From what I have seen of the facts, DP knew he was holding JN in a chokehold longer than what was necessary to remove any threat (real or perceived) and he kept hold anyway.

jmo

Edited to correct initials!

 

[Deleted member 296739]

As a NYC subway rider, I can attest there are not LEO on every car or every train or at every station. But LE is in the system.

But to me, that is not the point in this criminal case.

The point is what the charges are.

DP held JN in a chokehold beyond what was necessary to subdue him and DP killed JN.

From what I have seen of the facts, DP knew he was holding JN in a chokehold longer than what was necessary to remove any threat (real or perceived) and he kept hold anyway.

jmo

Edited to correct initials!

Thank you for your thoughts and perspective… I can see where you’re coming from…

I think that this case is different nerves in different people and that is informing various strong emotions and opinions about what happened… moo

I’m profoundly sad for the families of both men especially for JN’s family, I know from experience that having family members who struggle with mental illness, medication compliance, substance misuse, justice involvement and being unhoused is very difficult and comes with such a stigma at times- and having to grieve publicly and go through this trial has got to be unbearably painful…

jmo moo omo

 

[Izzylizzy]

This is the first 8 mins of a 30 min video of DP's interrogation with detectives, with captions that make it clear what's being said.
At the time LE knew that JN had died but hadn't told DP.
Not once in the video does DP ask detectives the condition of JN and I haven't seen any reports on how long DP stayed at the subway watching medics try to resuscitate JN .
He might have known that JN was dead or had concerns he was but never asked.

It's no wonder the defense tried to keep this video from being entered as evidence, to no avail though.

Especially @ 5:40 its a "Houston we've got a problem" for DP..a few big problems.