Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely

[IDK]

Does anyone have access to Dr. Chundru’s full testimony? Or just the snippets posted here and there? IMO.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Don't people exit and enter subway cars at each stop? Just because people exited, someone innocently might have entered. And of course, DP was at risk of an attack from JN. It is reasonable to believe JN might have had a weapon on him, perhaps a knife.

I don't know about you, but I certainly wouldn't be entering a train when I could see a man being pinned down by three guys and people were calling out for the cops, but if I did more fool me I guess!
The video we have all seen shows that nobody boarded the train in that car at the time so im willing to bet most sensible people would stay on the platform. MOO


<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

IMO:
It's all about the Cha-ching.


"Cross-examining Chundru, Manhattan Assistant District Attorney Dafna Yoran appeared to raise questions about the quality of his work, suggesting through a series of questions that he performed more autopsies a year than is recommended by the National Association of Medical Examiners, of which he is a member. Yoran will continue her cross-examination Friday."

Defense pathologist says Jordan Neely didn't die of chokehold on NYC subway

A forensic pathologist hired by Daniel Penny’s attorneys disputed a New York City medical examiner’s finding that Penny’s chokehold killed Neely in May 2023.

www.nbcnews.com

Thanks Izzy, now I will be singing Jessie J all day

 

[Inthedetails]

Don't people exit and enter subway cars at each stop? Just because people exited, someone innocently might have entered. And of course, DP was at risk of an attack from JN. It is reasonable to believe JN might have had a weapon on him, perhaps a knife.

Every once in awhile I chime in as a NYC subway rider. I'll answer your question: Nobody enters a subway car at a station when all the passengers are streaming out looking scared.

jmo

 

[IceIce9]

I fear that a sad result of this high profile case will be that few people, even fewer than we see now, will be willing to step up and protect people from an attacker or an aggressive person.

Will a potential rescuer stop and think what would happen if they restrain an attacker, not knowing if the individual might have a medical condition or be under the influence of drugs? What if the aggressive individual suffers cardiac arrest while being restrained?

Someone under the influence of K2 would be especially problematic because 1. K2 can cause very erratic and aggressive behavior and 2. K2 can cause cardiac arrest.

Cardiac arrest associated with synthetic cannabinoid use and acquired prolonged QTc interval: A case report and review of literature - PMC

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Synthetic cannabinoids may have cardiovascular side effects including cardiac arrhythmias and even cardiac arrest.

JMO

 

[Izzylizzy]

I fear that a sad result of this high profile case will be that few people, even fewer than we see now, will be willing to step up and protect people from an attacker or an aggressive person.

Will a potential rescuer stop and think what would happen if they restrain an attacker, not knowing if the individual might have a medical condition or be under the influence of drugs? What if the aggressive individual suffers cardiac arrest while being restrained?

Someone under the influence of K2 would be especially problematic because 1. K2 can cause very erratic and aggressive behavior and 2. K2 can cause cardiac arrest.

Cardiac arrest associated with synthetic cannabinoid use and acquired prolonged QTc interval: A case report and review of literature - PMC

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Synthetic cannabinoids may have cardiovascular side effects including cardiac arrhythmias and even cardiac arrest.

JMO

"Neely had the sickle cell trait. Harris maintains that didn't contribute to or cause his death."

"That chokehold for that amount of time would kill anyone."

"Defense attorneys pressed about synthetic cannabinoids in Neely's system, otherwise known as the drug K2. Harris said of the 10,000 overdoses in New York City, seven were due to synthetic marijuana, and all of those people had abnormal hearts. Neely had a normal heart, she said.

Harris also testified there's no way to know how much K2 was in his system, and that synthetic cannabinoids are relatively new, and not a well understood class of drugs."

rests in trial of Daniel Penny, accused in NYC subway chokehold death​

Prosecutors rested their case Monday in the trial of Daniel Penny, the Marine veteran charged in the chokehold death of Jordan Neely on board a subway train last year.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[IceIce9]

"Neely had the sickle cell trait. Harris maintains that didn't contribute to or cause his death."

"That chokehold for that amount of time would kill anyone."

"Defense attorneys pressed about synthetic cannabinoids in Neely's system, otherwise known as the drug K2. Harris said of the 10,000 overdoses in New York City, seven were due to synthetic marijuana, and all of those people had abnormal hearts. Neely had a normal heart, she said.

Harris also testified there's no way to know how much K2 was in his system, and that synthetic cannabinoids are relatively new, and not a well understood class of drugs."

rests in trial of Daniel Penny, accused in NYC subway chokehold death​

Prosecutors rested their case Monday in the trial of Daniel Penny, the Marine veteran charged in the chokehold death of Jordan Neely on board a subway train last year.

www.cbsnews.com

Synthetic cannabis has been available since at least 2008 and was known to be a health hazard even during the Obama administration.

It has been extensively researched. I’m not sure why it was reported that it was relatively new, when a simple internet search will bring up research studies.

Synthetic Drugs (a.k.a. K2, Spice, Bath Salts, etc.)

Overview and History Synthetic cannabinoids, commonly known as “synthetic marijuana,” “K2,” or “Spice”, are often sold in legal retail outlets as “herbal incense” or “potpourri”, and synthetic cathinones are often sold as “bath salts” or “jewelry cleaner”.

obamawhitehouse.archives.gov

 

[Ontario Mom]

Right. I get that.

I was just talking about the spirit of such laws, not the literal interpretation, and the societal need to encourage citizens to step in to aid others when necessary.

Given Chundru's testimony, Neely's death was a combination of factors, and Penny couldn't have known about his medical condition. To me, that negates manslaughter and negligence and, rather, puts Penny's actions in a similar light as those of a good Samaritan. He did the right thing for the right reason, but an unforeseen tragedy ensued as a result.

Right now, I'm leaning strongly toward acquittal, but if some damning information comes out, that could change.

We're basically at the end of the trial after today's cross of the defense expert, so I don't expect any further information to come out about what happened. Both sides will give their closing then it's in the hands of the jury.
(ETA - least I think this is pretty much where we're at)

My only concern there, is if the jurors will be comfortable enough to present their verdict - whatever it happens to be. Since it's been reported there have been threats against the jurors from "both sides" New details emerge about jurors in Daniel Penny's deadly chokehold trial I certainly don't envy the jurors the issues they're dealing with.

Although interestingly enough, the only people I've seen or heard from issuing anything, are the folks chanting outside the court house calling DP a murderer, a vigilante, a racist, etc. Protesters jeer at Daniel Penny on first day of jury selection in fatal NYC subway chokehold case: ‘Murderer!’

 

[Ontario Mom]

Someone here opined that it was merely someone else's opinion that DP wasn't trying to kill JN.

This is not factually correct (and the facts matter). The source of that information is DP himself in his own words, to the LE interviewing him.

Daniel Penny interrogation video reveals him telling detectives ‘I’m not trying to kill the guy’ hours after Jordan Neely’s chokehold death

It was the first time jurors heard the voice of the man whose fate they’re weighing.

nypost.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

Juries perceptions of expert witnesses are a crucial part of trials and concern to both prosecutors and defense attorneys.

The defense's expert Dr. Chundru will continue to be cross-examined this morning by Assistant District Attorney Dafna Yoran who yesterday achieved poking holes in Chundru's findings.
jmo

Improving Expert Witness Credibility in the Eyes of the Jury

Discover the factors jurors use to evaluate an expert's credibility and learn how personal experiences can affect jurors’ perceptions of expert testimony.

imslegal.com

Expert Witnesses and the Battle with Jury Bias

Expert Article Library posted by Advice Company about Expert Witnesses and the Battle with Jury Bias on ExpertPages®.

www.expertpages.com

 

[shotgun09]

Showing my age here, but years ago Mr Rogers said to children across America, " Look for The Helpers".

If DP is convicted and jailed, it is my opinion that we will hear loud and clear, from Alvin Bragg and co in NYC, " You're on your own, kid".

Sad times....

MOO and Peace

 

[acutename]

This.

Your post makes a lot of sense.

There's an uncomfortable trade-off here, and in a way, it reminds me of the catch-22 law enforcement officers sometimes find themselves in when they respond in a way that results in the injury or death of a suspect.

he is exactly in the same place as LE who responds to chaotic situations with a bad result and I know that some LE are now accompanied by social workers or people with other specialized training, but DP was not trained and paid for what he found himself doing. I am old enough to recall when it was a goal to deinstitutionalize the mentally ill, but how safe are they and us with them "on the street?"

If LE had been there faster or initially,what would they have done to defuse the situation? Put JN in cuffs? What does it mean that he was on a NYC list:



Mr. Neely, who was killed by another subway rider, was on a watch list for a city task force that kept track of the New Yorkers of most concern. For years before Jordan Neely, a mentally ill homeless man, was killed in the subway, the city had its eye on him.May 15, 2023

Jordan Neely Was on New York's 'Top 50' List of Homeless ...​

Were they supposed to be getting him services some time soon? His family is upset but they could not help him and he could not live with them. (see citation below)

And do you want to spend tax dollars to incarcerate DP for 7-10 yrs because you feel unsafe with him walking around?

So what is the answer for really mentally ill people who threaten and sometimes injure others? I posted this article before Jordan Neely - New York Magazine It is mostly sympathetic but it traces JN's life from being a mostly benign impersonator who was still connected to some social norms and able to take of himself to some one who was... as he said hungry, thirsty, ready to go to jail. And yes, he had lots of horrible life experiences that were "not his fault"- mother murdered, etc.

 

[fred&edna]

There are numerous reports available online regarding individuals with SCT and the dangers to them associated with high intensity physical exertion... particularly how rapidly their physical state can decline without assistance.

Balancing exercise risk and benefits: lessons learned from sickle cell trait and sickle cell anemia - PMC

Development of exercise guidelines for individuals with sickle cell trait (SCT) and sickle cell anemia (SCA) is hampered by the need to weigh the benefits against risks of exercise in these populations. In SCT, concern for exercise collapse ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Signs and symptoms of an exertional sickling event include intense pain, fatigue, feeling like you cannot continue exercising, muscle cramping and inability to catch your breath. Exertional sickling is a medical emergency and requires immediate treatment"

For Coaches | USF Health

health.usf.edu

https://www.nata.org/sites/default/files/sicklecelltraitandtheathlete.pdf

Please do not misinterpret my meaning. I am not victim-blaming. I am simply saying there are medical studies supporting the fact that Neely was in greater danger of sudden death because of his SCT. (A factor unknown to DP).
jmo

 

[GRT]

I fear that a sad result of this high profile case will be that few people, even fewer than we see now, will be willing to step up and protect people from an attacker or an aggressive person.

This is my fear as well. Even if DP is exonerated, I fear this will happen.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Synthetic cannabis has been available since at least 2008 and was known to be a health hazard even during the Obama administration.

It has been extensively researched. I’m not sure why it was reported that it was relatively new, when a simple internet search will bring up research studies.

Synthetic Drugs (a.k.a. K2, Spice, Bath Salts, etc.)

Overview and History Synthetic cannabinoids, commonly known as “synthetic marijuana,” “K2,” or “Spice”, are often sold in legal retail outlets as “herbal incense” or “potpourri”, and synthetic cathinones are often sold as “bath salts” or “jewelry cleaner”.

obamawhitehouse.archives.gov

Testing is not available so who knows why?

It may be because K2 is comprised of so many different substances that it's impossible to create a test?
jmo

 

[Izzylizzy]

There are numerous reports available online regarding individuals with SCT and the dangers to them associated with high intensity physical exertion... particularly how rapidly their physical state can decline without assistance.

Balancing exercise risk and benefits: lessons learned from sickle cell trait and sickle cell anemia - PMC

Development of exercise guidelines for individuals with sickle cell trait (SCT) and sickle cell anemia (SCA) is hampered by the need to weigh the benefits against risks of exercise in these populations. In SCT, concern for exercise collapse ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Signs and symptoms of an exertional sickling event include intense pain, fatigue, feeling like you cannot continue exercising, muscle cramping and inability to catch your breath. Exertional sickling is a medical emergency and requires immediate treatment"

For Coaches | USF Health

health.usf.edu

https://www.nata.org/sites/default/files/sicklecelltraitandtheathlete.pdf

Please do not misinterpret my meaning. I am not victim-blaming. I am simply saying there are medical studies supporting the fact that Neely was in greater danger of sudden death because of his SCT. (A factor unknown to DP).
jmo

IMO:
It's not relevant what what DP knew or didn't know about JN's medical issues.
He's charged with using lethal force for killing a man who no longer posed any threat to him or others showing a disregard for his life.

 

[shotgun09]

There are numerous reports available online regarding individuals with SCT and the dangers to them associated with high intensity physical exertion... particularly how rapidly their physical state can decline without assistance.

Balancing exercise risk and benefits: lessons learned from sickle cell trait and sickle cell anemia - PMC

Development of exercise guidelines for individuals with sickle cell trait (SCT) and sickle cell anemia (SCA) is hampered by the need to weigh the benefits against risks of exercise in these populations. In SCT, concern for exercise collapse ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Signs and symptoms of an exertional sickling event include intense pain, fatigue, feeling like you cannot continue exercising, muscle cramping and inability to catch your breath. Exertional sickling is a medical emergency and requires immediate treatment"

For Coaches | USF Health

health.usf.edu

https://www.nata.org/sites/default/files/sicklecelltraitandtheathlete.pdf

Please do not misinterpret my meaning. I am not victim-blaming. I am simply saying there are medical studies supporting the fact that Neely was in greater danger of sudden death because of his SCT. (A factor unknown to DP).
jmo

I wonder if there have been studies on the effects of K2 with a SCT diagnosis? It would seem to me, as just some joe with some nursing background, that the K2 substance(s) would only exacerbate the very delicate condition. Seeing one in SCC is nothing you want to experience.
IMO

 

[Jade]

So Daniel Penny lied to the detectives.

And no court testimony collaborated Neely saying “I’m going to kill everybody”.

[...]
“I’m not trying to kill the guy,” Penny told detectives in the video, insisting he let go of Neely, 30, “as soon” as two other men arrived to help restrain the homeless man — a statement that one of those men testified earlier this week is false.

“‘I am going to grab his hands, so you can let go,’” witness Eric Gonzalez said he told Penny after approaching him. He added he hoped Penny would remove his arm from Neely’s neck, but that Penny did not.
[…]
“He’s like, ‘I’m going to kill everybody,'” Penny, wearing a tan jacket, black hooded sweatshirt and black cap, told the detectives.

He can also be heard muttering under his breath that “all these people are pushing people in front of the train and stuff,” in an apparent reference to Neely, who was mentally ill.
[…]
Daniel Penny interrogation video reveals him telling detectives ‘I’m not trying to kill the guy’ hours after Jordan Neely’s chokehold death

[...]
Sanchez admitted she was relieved when Penny brought Neely down to the ground. But she also said that it looked like Penny was holding Neely too tightly and that it “kind of” looked like he was trying to hurt the disturbed man.
[...]
Witness to deadly subway chokehold said Jordan Neely was ‘trying to attack everybody’ in 911 call played at trial

[...]
Witnesses said Mr Neely was shouting about being hungry and willing to return to jail or die, but there was no indication he physically attacked anyone.
[...]
Daniel Penny trial begins in New York for chokehold subway death of Jordan Neely

[...]
Their testimony followed evidence submitted by prosecutors that suggested Penny had lied during an interview with police.

Hours after Neely was killed, according to a video shown to jurors, Penny told two detectives in an interview at a precinct that he did not put pressure on Neely’s neck and that he had released his chokehold as soon as he received confirmation from the two men who helped him restrain Neely that they were holding Neely. But last week, one of those men, Eric Gonzalez, testified that Penny continued his chokehold after Gonzalez told him, “I will grab his hands so you can let go.”
[...]
Defense pathologist says Jordan Neely didn't die of chokehold on NYC subway


[...]
The video, an edited version of footage shot by a journalist, showed — frame-by-frame — Penny appearing to increase the pressure of his chokehold as Neely tries to escape.
[...]
Jordan Neely looked like he was trying to ‘escape’ Daniel Penny’s chokehold: witness


all imo

 

[Inthedetails]

I wonder if there have been studies on the effects of K2 with a SCT diagnosis? It would seem to me, as just some joe with some nursing background, that the K2 substance(s) would only exacerbate the very delicate condition. Seeing one in SCC is nothing you want to experience.
IMO

And I wonder how long a chokehold needs to be before someone in the hold is killed. This hold was six minutes.

jmo

 

[Izzylizzy]

Dr.Harris concluded that JN died from the lack of oxygen intake.
What caused that lack?

Even if SCT did play a role in his death what triggered his SCT?

The lack of oxygen caused by being strangled from a chokehold.
jmo

 

[shotgun09]

From court today, during cross of expert Dr Chundru.
From Dan Rivoli on 'x'

Dr. Chundru explains that K2, Neely's schizophrenia "revs" up the system, causes exertion, increases heart rate causing sickling of cells that limits oxygen flow in body

https://twitter.com/x/status/1859983554706608639