Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely

[fred&edna]

IMO:
It's not relevant what what DP knew or didn't know about JN's medical issues.
He's charged with using lethal force for killing a man who no longer posed any threat to him or others showing a disregard for his life.

IIUC The relevancy as to whether Neely was on drugs OR if Neely had SCT means nothing in court... and there is no way DP knew either of these. Neely used force to resist being controlled by DP. What IS relevant is that Neely (due his SCT) was at higher risk for sudden death when he exerted sudden physical activity. And, that factor alone makes it tougher to prove the hold caused his death.

And, it's just my opinion but... DP used force to control someone who frightened (nearly) everyone. When taking a bus, subway car, or any other type of public transportation... I should not reasonably expect for my life to be threatened (verbally or otherwise). While Neely's behavior may have been due to a mental health crisis, and it's not "fair" that he died... it's horrendously sad. But, blaming DP for his death also isn't "fair".

jmo

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Someone here opined that it was merely someone else's opinion that DP wasn't trying to kill JN.

This is not factually correct (and the facts matter). The source of that information is DP himself in his own words, to the LE interviewing him.

Daniel Penny interrogation video reveals him telling detectives ‘I’m not trying to kill the guy’ hours after Jordan Neely’s chokehold death

It was the first time jurors heard the voice of the man whose fate they’re weighing.

nypost.com

To be clear, I don't believe that DP intended to kill JN, but for the purpose of this post, he would say that, wouldn't he?.
If I was being questioned by police about my actions in this scenario, even if I did mean harm to the victim, I'm hardly going to say so. That would be plain stupid. MOO

 

[fred&edna]

From court today, during cross of expert Dr Chundru.
From Dan Rivoli on 'x'

Dr. Chundru explains that K2, Neely's schizophrenia "revs" up the system, causes exertion, increases heart rate causing sickling of cells that limits oxygen flow in body

https://twitter.com/x/status/1859983554706608639

The easily available reports I've read support this totally. And, I ain't even close to being a Dr.

jmo

 

[jepop]

So Daniel Penny lied to the detectives.

And no court testimony collaborated Neely saying “I’m going to kill everybody”.

[...]
“I’m not trying to kill the guy,” Penny told detectives in the video, insisting he let go of Neely, 30, “as soon” as two other men arrived to help restrain the homeless man — a statement that one of those men testified earlier this week is false.

“‘I am going to grab his hands, so you can let go,’” witness Eric Gonzalez said he told Penny after approaching him. He added he hoped Penny would remove his arm from Neely’s neck, but that Penny did not.
[…]
“He’s like, ‘I’m going to kill everybody,'” Penny, wearing a tan jacket, black hooded sweatshirt and black cap, told the detectives.

He can also be heard muttering under his breath that “all these people are pushing people in front of the train and stuff,” in an apparent reference to Neely, who was mentally ill.
[…]
Daniel Penny interrogation video reveals him telling detectives ‘I’m not trying to kill the guy’ hours after Jordan Neely’s chokehold death

[...]
Sanchez admitted she was relieved when Penny brought Neely down to the ground. But she also said that it looked like Penny was holding Neely too tightly and that it “kind of” looked like he was trying to hurt the disturbed man.
[...]
Witness to deadly subway chokehold said Jordan Neely was ‘trying to attack everybody’ in 911 call played at trial

[...]
Witnesses said Mr Neely was shouting about being hungry and willing to return to jail or die, but there was no indication he physically attacked anyone.
[...]
Daniel Penny trial begins in New York for chokehold subway death of Jordan Neely

[...]
Their testimony followed evidence submitted by prosecutors that suggested Penny had lied during an interview with police.

Hours after Neely was killed, according to a video shown to jurors, Penny told two detectives in an interview at a precinct that he did not put pressure on Neely’s neck and that he had released his chokehold as soon as he received confirmation from the two men who helped him restrain Neely that they were holding Neely. But last week, one of those men, Eric Gonzalez, testified that Penny continued his chokehold after Gonzalez told him, “I will grab his hands so you can let go.”
[...]
Defense pathologist says Jordan Neely didn't die of chokehold on NYC subway


[...]
The video, an edited version of footage shot by a journalist, showed — frame-by-frame — Penny appearing to increase the pressure of his chokehold as Neely tries to escape.
[...]
Jordan Neely looked like he was trying to ‘escape’ Daniel Penny’s chokehold: witness


all imo

He did indeed. Jmo

ETA, or some might like to call it misdirection or distraction. My opinion is he certainly was being far from straightforward in that interview. He was all over the place and seemed to have difficulty several times answering the straight forward question about if he immediately released JN from chokehold once the other guy was holding his arms. But his answer at one point was a positive yes and we know that is a lie. Why? Reasons unknown though one might speculate. At that point seems detectives had no intention of going into it further. Jmo

 

[Izzylizzy]

So Daniel Penny lied to the detectives.

And no court testimony collaborated Neely saying “I’m going to kill everybody”.

[...]
“I’m not trying to kill the guy,” Penny told detectives in the video, insisting he let go of Neely, 30, “as soon” as two other men arrived to help restrain the homeless man — a statement that one of those men testified earlier this week is false.

“‘I am going to grab his hands, so you can let go,’” witness Eric Gonzalez said he told Penny after approaching him. He added he hoped Penny would remove his arm from Neely’s neck, but that Penny did not.
[…]
“He’s like, ‘I’m going to kill everybody,'” Penny, wearing a tan jacket, black hooded sweatshirt and black cap, told the detectives.

He can also be heard muttering under his breath that “all these people are pushing people in front of the train and stuff,” in an apparent reference to Neely, who was mentally ill.
[…]
Daniel Penny interrogation video reveals him telling detectives ‘I’m not trying to kill the guy’ hours after Jordan Neely’s chokehold death

[...]
Sanchez admitted she was relieved when Penny brought Neely down to the ground. But she also said that it looked like Penny was holding Neely too tightly and that it “kind of” looked like he was trying to hurt the disturbed man.
[...]
Witness to deadly subway chokehold said Jordan Neely was ‘trying to attack everybody’ in 911 call played at trial

[...]
Witnesses said Mr Neely was shouting about being hungry and willing to return to jail or die, but there was no indication he physically attacked anyone.
[...]
Daniel Penny trial begins in New York for chokehold subway death of Jordan Neely

[...]
Their testimony followed evidence submitted by prosecutors that suggested Penny had lied during an interview with police.

Hours after Neely was killed, according to a video shown to jurors, Penny told two detectives in an interview at a precinct that he did not put pressure on Neely’s neck and that he had released his chokehold as soon as he received confirmation from the two men who helped him restrain Neely that they were holding Neely. But last week, one of those men, Eric Gonzalez, testified that Penny continued his chokehold after Gonzalez told him, “I will grab his hands so you can let go.”
[...]
Defense pathologist says Jordan Neely didn't die of chokehold on NYC subway


[...]
The video, an edited version of footage shot by a journalist, showed — frame-by-frame — Penny appearing to increase the pressure of his chokehold as Neely tries to escape.
[...]
Jordan Neely looked like he was trying to ‘escape’ Daniel Penny’s chokehold: witness


all imo

Thanks again for laying out testimonies from witnesses and DP.

About DP's crucial lie to detectives in the 30 min interrogation video.
Close to the end of the video detectives left the room for a few minutes and when they returned they had DP go back to his previous claim of having let go of JN when the 2 men arrived and it stayed like that until LE arrived.

DP clarified all the above and that's when DP asked if he was being detained or arrested because he had a test to take.

It may have been at that point that LE told DP that JN is dead and then when DP asked for a lawyer or said he needed one and stopped talking.
If DP wasn't aware that the unconscious condition he left JN in from his chokehold and that LE was unable to revive him which would indicate that DP knew that JN was severely injured and/or dead and he was responsible he would have had no reason to lie about his actions and his timeline with the chokehold.

It's the same old story we hear when people are being interrogated, detectives already know the answer to the question and in this case I believe that LE already had the videos and some witness statements. JMO
Thanks again.

 

[Izzylizzy]

The easily available reports I've read support this totally. And, I ain't even close to being a Dr.

jmo

Even if that took place it would have been from DP depriving JN of oxygen.

 

[Izzylizzy]

He did indeed. Jmo

Big time!
Thank god for the "Good Samaritans" that video these tragic events.

 

[mickey2942]

I have given statements to LEO, and usually, under extreme stress. I am glad I never had to go to court and have every single word I said analyzed.

It goes back to what my husband has told our kids, if officers want to "talk" to you, do so for about 2 minutes, answer the questions truthfully. If it is longer than 2 minutes, ask to leave. And say nothing else.

 

[fred&edna]

Even if that took place it would have been from DP depriving JN of oxygen.

No. In individuals with SCT, their red-blood (oxygen-carrying) cells react to the physical exertion causing the organs to be deprived of oxygen and those organs shut down rapidly... without a choke-hold being involved. Just Neely's high exertion of energy could have caused his death.

jmo

 

[Jade]

There are numerous reports available online regarding individuals with SCT and the dangers to them associated with high intensity physical exertion... particularly how rapidly their physical state can decline without assistance.

Balancing exercise risk and benefits: lessons learned from sickle cell trait and sickle cell anemia - PMC

Development of exercise guidelines for individuals with sickle cell trait (SCT) and sickle cell anemia (SCA) is hampered by the need to weigh the benefits against risks of exercise in these populations. In SCT, concern for exercise collapse ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Signs and symptoms of an exertional sickling event include intense pain, fatigue, feeling like you cannot continue exercising, muscle cramping and inability to catch your breath. Exertional sickling is a medical emergency and requires immediate treatment"

For Coaches | USF Health

health.usf.edu

https://www.nata.org/sites/default/files/sicklecelltraitandtheathlete.pdf

Please do not misinterpret my meaning. I am not victim-blaming. I am simply saying there are medical studies supporting the fact that Neely was in greater danger of sudden death because of his SCT. (A factor unknown to DP).
jmo

I reckon that’s why unqualified, untrained folk don’t need to be violently attacking strangers unexpectedly from behind putting them in a faulty chokehold and killing them in the process.

all imo

 

[Rolypolyoly]

No. In individuals with SCT, their red-blood (oxygen-carrying) cells react to the physical exertion causing the organs to be deprived of oxygen and those organs shut down rapidly... without a choke-hold being involved.

jmo

But didn't you say that JN exerted himself by struggling against the chokehold? So surely it stands to reason that if there was no chokehold, there would have been no resisting, ergo no physical exertion? So either way, the chokehold is the reason, no?

 

[fred&edna]

But didn't you say that JN exerted himself by struggling against the chokehold? So surely it stands to reason that if there was no chokehold, there would have been no resisting, ergo no physical exertion? So either way, the chokehold is the reason, no?

It IS definitely possible that physical restraint caused Neely to react suddenly but... whether that chokehold in and of itself deprived his body of oxygen causing his death is questionable. Was Neely's behavior before the chokehold calm? Was he exhibiting physical as well as verbal threats? How excited was he? How was his breathing before being restrained?

jmo

 

[Rolypolyoly]

It IS definitely possible that physical restraint caused Neely to react suddenly but... whether that chokehold in and of itself deprived his body of oxygen leading to his death is questionable. Was Neely's behavior before the chokehold calm? Was he exhibiting physical as well as verbal threats? How excited was he? How was his breathing before being restrained?

jmo

Witnesses say he was shouting and didn't physically attack anyone, and honestly I'd like to think that if he was showing any signs of breathing difficulties at all, then DP would not have stepped behind him and restricted his breathing further. That would be just asking for trouble!.

 

[IceIce9]

I reckon that’s why unqualified, untrained folk don’t need to be violently attacking strangers unexpectedly from behind putting them in a faulty chokehold and killing them in the process.

all imo

If strangers wouldn’t threaten innocent people in a hostile and aggressive manner there wouldn’t be a need for other strangers to step up and protect them.

JMO

 

[Inthedetails]

If strangers wouldn’t threaten innocent people in a hostile and aggressive manner there wouldn’t be a need for other strangers to step up and protect them.

JMO

There is a difference between stopping a threat and knowingly using force beyond what was needed to stop the threat.

The car doors opened and passengers left. Jordan was subdued on the floor of the subway. The threat was over and yet the chokehold continued and Jordan died.

jmo

 

[IDK]

he is exactly in the same place as LE who responds to chaotic situations with a bad result and I know that some LE are now accompanied by social workers or people with other specialized training, but DP was not trained and paid for what he found himself doing. I am old enough to recall when it was a goal to deinstitutionalize the mentally ill, but how safe are they and us with them "on the street?"

If LE had been there faster or initially,what would they have done to defuse the situation? Put JN in cuffs? What does it mean that he was on a NYC list:



Mr. Neely, who was killed by another subway rider, was on a watch list for a city task force that kept track of the New Yorkers of most concern. For years before Jordan Neely, a mentally ill homeless man, was killed in the subway, the city had its eye on him.May 15, 2023
View attachment 546594

Jordan Neely Was on New York's 'Top 50' List of Homeless ...​

Were they supposed to be getting him services some time soon? His family is upset but they could not help him and he could not live with them. (see citation below)

And do you want to spend tax dollars to incarcerate DP for 7-10 yrs because you feel unsafe with him walking around?

So what is the answer for really mentally ill people who threaten and sometimes injure others? I posted this article before Jordan Neely - New York Magazine It is mostly sympathetic but it traces JN's life from being a mostly benign impersonator who was still connected to some social norms and able to take of himself to some one who was... as he said hungry, thirsty, ready to go to jail. And yes, he had lots of horrible life experiences that were "not his fault"- mother murdered, etc.

You raise many good points.

I also wonder if LE had been the first to respond, how might JN have responded to them? What if they had needed to taze him? Just throwing out a possible scenario. We have no way of knowing. May well have ended in the same outcome, due to all JN’s health and substance abuse issues.



There are too many “what if” situations to ponder the potential outcomes, IMO.

Very sad that JN did not get the help he had desperately needed for years. IMO.

 

[jepop]

No. In individuals with SCT, their red-blood (oxygen-carrying) cells react to the physical exertion causing the organs to be deprived of oxygen and those organs shut down rapidly... without a choke-hold being involved. Just Neely's high exertion of energy could have caused his death.

jmo

Source or link to info please.

 

[Jade]

If strangers wouldn’t threaten innocent people in a hostile and aggressive manner there wouldn’t be a need for other strangers to step up and protect them.

JMO

In the United States that is the role of LE, the Court and Jury.

all imo

 

[GRT]

Source or link to info please.

Exercising Caution: Intensive Athletic Activity Could Be Fatal to Those with Sickle-Cell Trait

Scientists are studying why some athletes with a sickle-cell mutation face a greater risk of sudden death

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

IIUC The relevancy as to whether Neely was on drugs OR if Neely had SCT means nothing in court... and there is no way DP knew either of these. Neely used force to resist being controlled by DP. What IS relevant is that Neely (due his SCT) was at higher risk for sudden death when he exerted sudden physical activity. And, that factor alone makes it tougher to prove the hold caused his death.

And, it's just my opinion but... DP used force to control someone who frightened (nearly) everyone. When taking a bus, subway car, or any other type of public transportation... I should not reasonably expect for my life to be threatened (verbally or otherwise). While Neely's behavior may have been due to a mental health crisis, and it's not "fair" that he died... it's horrendously sad. But, blaming DP for his death also isn't "fair".

jmo

When the train stopped 30 secs after the take down of JN by DP and all the passengers exited and 2 men were helping DP hold down JN and DP continued the chokehold on an unarmed man who assaulted no one for 6 mins leading to his death is what this case is about and why DP was charged with manslaughter 2 and negligent homicide for the disregard of a man's life.