Father says DNA could solve one of country’s biggest murder mysteries: Who killed JonBenét Ramsey

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  • #1,681
It should be noted that JonBenet's body was already in the custody of the Coroner's Office since not long after being found on the afternoon of December 26. Coroner's investigator Patricia Dunn was on site examining the body by 1:23PM. She would remain at the scene with the body until it was transported to the morgue around 10:45PM. In other words, while Dr. Meyer spent only ten minutes with the body at the crime scene, his designee had spent a much longer time doing so on behalf of his office.
That’s a direct quote from somewhere, I’ve read those exact same words.
 
  • #1,682
It should be noted that JonBenet's body was already in the custody of the Coroner's Office since not long after being found on the afternoon of December 26. Coroner's investigator Patricia Dunn was on site examining the body by 1:23PM. She would remain at the scene with the body until it was transported to the morgue around 10:45PM. In other words, while Dr. Meyer spent only ten minutes with the body at the crime scene, his designee had spent a much longer time doing so on behalf of his office.
Good find
 
  • #1,683
  • #1,684
It should be noted that JonBenet's body was already in the custody of the Coroner's Office since not long after being found on the afternoon of December 26. Coroner's investigator Patricia Dunn was on site examining the body by 1:23PM. She would remain at the scene with the body until it was transported to the morgue around 10:45PM. In other words, while Dr. Meyer spent only ten minutes with the body at the crime scene, his designee had spent a much longer time doing so on behalf of his office.
If Patricia Dunn was on the scene quite soon after the body was found and stayed at the house until dr.Mayer arrived and even after - why is nothing documented about Dunn's observations? I mean, there was a reason why she was asked to be there, right? So she must have had some obligations or assignments regarding the found body? Or did she just sit there on the couch for 6 hours? And even if she did just sit, she must have still observed the scene - the Ramsey's and police around and inside the house. Why are there no statements about what she did, or about what she saw, heard and observed? It sure would have mattered regarding the investigation. If someone has read anything regarding this matter, I would be happy to learn more.

She "spent more time doing things on behalf of his office" - what did she do all this time and where is is documented?
 
  • #1,685
I accept dr Myers autopsy report as accurate. Unless there are forensic reports from other doctors who personally examined jonbenets body, I will continue to only accept Dr Myers report.
Meyer's report is extensive and documented. There's no real reason to discount any of it.

The location of the urine stains on the panties and long johns indicates to me that she was lying on her stomach when she died from strangulation. So, the murderer must have rolled her over later since she was on her back when her dad found her.

The oddest thing, MOO, is that there was no blood from the head wound. Head wounds are notorious for bleeding profusely, as we all know.

But, dead bodies don't bleed. Was she dead then when she was smacked? Or, did the smack that fractured her skull not break the skin? That would be odd. Typically, skulls are pretty hard, and the skin will split first.
 
  • #1,686
Meyer's report is extensive and documented. There's no real reason to discount any of it.

The location of the urine stains on the panties and long johns indicates to me that she was lying on her stomach when she died from strangulation. So, the murderer must have rolled her over later since she was on her back when her dad found her.

The oddest thing, MOO, is that there was no blood from the head wound. Head wounds are notorious for bleeding profusely, as we all know.

But, dead bodies don't bleed. Was she dead then when she was smacked? Or, did the smack that fractured her skull not break the skin? That would be odd. Typically, skulls are pretty hard, and the skin will split first.
There was small heamorrhage in the brain and contusions which are bruises so I think she must have been alive when she was hit in the head but I think the coroner was right when he said the blow to the head happened almost simultaneously as the strangulation. If both things happened that close together, I wonder if it was premeditated murder? I think The garrotte must have been made in advance because if she was hit in the head first and then the garrotte was made, wouldn’t there be much more bleeding and injury in the brain ?
 
  • #1,687
There was small heamorrhage in the brain and contusions which are bruises so I think she must have been alive when she was hit in the head but I think the coroner was right when he said the blow to the head happened almost simultaneously as the strangulation. If both things happened that close together, I wonder if it was premeditated murder? I think The garrotte must have been made in advance because if she was hit in the head first and then the garrotte was made, wouldn’t there be much more bleeding and injury in the brain ?
That almost has to be how it happened because if the smack had occurred any earlier, the hemorrhaging in the brain would have been extensive. There would likely have been signs of blood from her ears, nose, and eyes.

I agree that points to a premeditated murder because both ends of the paintbrush had been broken off, and knots of the cord on the brush would have taken some time to accomplish. So, the garrotte was likely ready to go before the murderer smacked her, and then he strangled her almost immediately after.

All MOO, but it makes sense to me.
 
  • #1,688
W
That almost has to be how it happened because if the smack had occurred any earlier, the hemorrhaging in the brain would have been extensive. There would likely have been signs of blood from her ears, nose, and eyes.

I agree that points to a premeditated murder because both ends of the paintbrush had been broken off, and knots of the cord on the brush would have taken some time to accomplish. So, the garrotte was likely ready to go before the murderer smacked her, and then he strangled her almost immediately after.

All MOO, but it makes sense to me.
Where do you think the sexual assault fits in? She had bleeding and injury to her vagina so it must have happened when she was alive but what was the purpose of it? To me, in my opinion, it seems more sadistic than sexual because it was done supposedly with the broken paintbrush. I can’t wrap my head around why that was done.
 
  • #1,689
If Patricia Dunn was on the scene quite soon after the body was found and stayed at the house until dr.Mayer arrived and even after - why is nothing documented about Dunn's observations? I mean, there was a reason why she was asked to be there, right? So she must have had some obligations or assignments regarding the found body? Or did she just sit there on the couch for 6 hours? And even if she did just sit, she must have still observed the scene - the Ramsey's and police around and inside the house. Why are there no statements about what she did, or about what she saw, heard and observed? It sure would have mattered regarding the investigation. If someone has read anything regarding this matter, I would be happy to learn more.

She "spent more time doing things on behalf of his office" - what did she do all this time and where is is documented?
Not everything has been released to the public. I assume she would have had to have written a report to document what she did there at the very least when she returned to the office. It’s unlikely she wrote nothing. I assume she documented things while she was at the crime scene. She may have even taken photos.
 
  • #1,690
W

Where do you think the sexual assault fits in? She had bleeding and injury to her vagina so it must have happened when she was alive but what was the purpose of it? To me, in my opinion, it seems more sadistic than sexual because it was done supposedly with the broken paintbrush. I can’t wrap my head around why that was done.
If FDI, I would hazard a guess that he had been infatuated with JBR for months and perphaps only recently started touching her when she was at his house playing with Daphne.

In Patsy's deposition, she was repeatedly questioned about how tired she and others in her family were when they returned that night from FW's house. I've wondered if they were drugged a bit to make them sleep more soundly. Obviously, LE wondered that at one point as well.

If FDI, he could have quietly let himself into the house while the family was sleeping. He had keys and he knew his way around the Ramsey home. He was also familiar with JBR's body, given he'd wiped and cleaned her up at his house at least twice prior.

I've read that some pedophiles think their victims "want it" and are surprised when they fight. If JBR started to struggle, fight, or cry, it might have set him (or another attacker) into a panic. She wasn't behaving as he expected her to.

We know her wrist was also bound, and there was evidence a stun gun was used. If JBR didn't accept the unwanted advances, she might have been stunned, and the murderer might have made the garrotte at that point--fully intending to kill her for not wanting him.

He might have used the paintbrush to begin to SA her but he didn't get too far. I think he was angry the object of his attention was crying, struggling.

So, then he smacks her and strangles her.

All MOO
 
  • #1,691
Not everything has been released to the public. I assume she would have had to have written a report to document what she did there at the very least when she returned to the office. It’s unlikely she wrote nothing. I assume she documented things while she was at the crime scene. She may have even taken photos.
Somewhere I read that Patricia was also at the autopsy.
 
  • #1,692
Oh, I don’t disagree. Just noting that was a skill he used in business a lot. The consummate salesman. It served him well. I do think he used it in a very sinister way when the murder happened. He adapted it to suit his purpose.
Exactly, Or the corporate narcissist type.
You are too kind. He was lying like a pro right out the gate. He's always had the skill no doubt here.
 
  • #1,693
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  • #1,694
RSBM

There are a few other quotes from jurors, but they're hard to find. Maybe because the jurors aren't supposed to discuss their time on a grand jury until charges are filed, although who would go after them?

I understand it -- this is from the Globe in 2006, but I can't find that link. Now, it's on Imgur:

9fpq5pp.jpeg
What that quote tells me is that some people that don't follow crime would have a hard time thinking a mother could do something like that, (even though there were indications of such).
But, mothers ARE capable of heinous things. What the RL told me was PR was very angry at JR and she was out of control. And she killed her mini-me. Then JR had no choice but to bury the evidence. IMO
 
  • #1,695
Exactly, Or the corporate narcissist type.
You are too kind. He was lying like a pro right out the gate. He's always had the skill no doubt here.
Yes, I do believe he was / is a narcissist, 100%, and that he has always had the skill......

I wonder what lies he told his first wife while he was cheating with the secretary? We also know the story of when he and Patsy were together making dinner in Atlanta and the GF that he had been cheating with his wife on showed up at the apartment, and John hid and let Patsy take care of that situation. He's a snake for sure.
 
  • #1,696
Here’s the rub with that though. The coroner listed the first cause of death was the strangulation, associated with craniocerebral trauma. IMO this leaves the door open for interpretation. The head blow could have been accidental. The strangulation which actually did cause her death was done intentionally.
I’d have to see what the Grand Jury saw. If the prosecution presented clear evidence that the strangulation was actually the cause of death, maybe that’s first degree murder?

There are conflicting reports of whether the head blow occurred before or after. As you more recently posted, the coroner did not examine her body until about 8 pm 12/26, so determining which came first is probably impossible now.

But why did the GJ not determine probable cause to recommend indicting either (or both) parent for murder? That’s a low bar and baffles me if they were involved.

The garrote is so bizarre. That is NOT staging, it is torture and murder. There’s no sign that the Ramseys were sexual sadists and really sick child abusers.
Given the amount of staging that was done, I think it started no later than 1AM, possibly as early as midnite or just before.
You call it “staging,” but in fact, it was real torture, abuse and murder. Brutal abuse was done to this child while she was still alive. If you’re going to “stage” a scene, none of that was necessary. Taking her body as far away from the house as possible would be much more effective staging for a ransom note. It was the middle of the night and she was tiny, JR could have dumped her body without desecrating it.

What we have here is a torture device none of us has ever heard of and could not make if we tried, violation of her genitals and a torture scene, not staging.

Respectfully, I do understand your purpose in using the word “staging,” I just have a different perspective and don‘t think that word describes this murder. Violating and murdering to make the scene appear like something else is what I think you’re saying.

No matter who killed this child, I think the violations were done for the sick enjoyment of the perpetrator. They are so sadistic and extreme. This is a very sick individual and the average mind could not come up with that “staging.” I certainly don’t rule out JR.
 
  • #1,697
What that quote tells me is that some people that don't follow crime would have a hard time thinking a mother could do something like that, (even though there were indications of such).
But, mothers ARE capable of heinous things. What the RL told me was PR was very angry at JR and she was out of control. And she killed her mini-me. Then JR had no choice but to bury the evidence. IMO
Yes, unfortunately, mothers can (and have) committed vicious crimes.

Now, I don't think Patsy did it, but I've sometimes wondered if JR secretly questioned her story. He's pushed so darn hard for advanced DNA tests, which he wouldn't do if he were protecting himself or someone else. John Ramsey doesn't know who killed his child, but he wants to know before he dies. I hope he gets the answer he's seeking.
 
  • #1,698
What that quote tells me is that some people that don't follow crime would have a hard time thinking a mother could do something like that, (even though there were indications of such).
But, mothers ARE capable of heinous things. What the RL told me was PR was very angry at JR and she was out of control. And she killed her mini-me. Then JR had no choice but to bury the evidence. IMO
I know mothers are violent and sick, but I would have to see evidence that Patsy watched sadistic p**n or was abused by a pedophilic s*x ring as a child to believe she knew how to make and use a garrote. That evidence may exist, but I have not seen it. This was not a violent, impulsive crime, it was first degree (premeditated) murder with a sexual torture device according to the prosecutors’ and GJ evidence.
 
  • #1,699
If Patricia Dunn was on the scene quite soon after the body was found and stayed at the house until dr.Mayer arrived and even after - why is nothing documented about Dunn's observations? I mean, there was a reason why she was asked to be there, right? So she must have had some obligations or assignments regarding the found body? Or did she just sit there on the couch for 6 hours? And even if she did just sit, she must have still observed the scene - the Ramsey's and police around and inside the house. Why are there no statements about what she did, or about what she saw, heard and observed? It sure would have mattered regarding the investigation. If someone has read anything regarding this matter, I would be happy to learn more.

She "spent more time doing things on behalf of his office" - what did she do all this time and where is is documented?
She was on the scene fairly soon after the body was found has been documented. We also know that John signed the papers necessary to release the body to the coroner before he left the house that afternoon. He made the assumption that it was the coroner that handed him the papers, but it wasn't.

So it certainly would be interesting to know exactly what Dunn did while she was there. Where are her reports? To my knowledge we have never seen anything from her. It is the coroner's responsibility to make the legal declaration of death before the body is removed from the crime scene. There are many other details in a murder that the coroner is responsible for as well. Knowing that Dr. Meyer spent so little time on the scene one has to assume that Dunn was the one to perform these duties.

The Boulder PD has over the years taken a lot of heat for how they handled the scene, mistakes made on that first day. Other professional forensic pathologists have noted that there were some things that the coroner should have done and did not. How much experience did he have with murders? I don't think it's out of line to question why it took him 7 1/2 hours to make his appearance at the scene or why certain important tests to help determine key questions were apparently not performed. I also do not think the opinions of the many well qualified experts who consulted on this case are completely insignificant. It is yet another part of this case that raises questions instead of giving us solid answers.
 
  • #1,700
I know mothers are violent and sick, but I would have to see evidence that Patsy watched sadistic p**n or was abused by a pedophilic s*x ring as a child to believe she knew how to make and use a garrote. That evidence may exist, but I have not seen it. This was not a violent, impulsive crime, it was first degree (premeditated) murder with a sexual torture device according to the prosecutors’ and GJ evidence.
What? Why?
John had been in a navy and Burke was a boy scout. Both of them were well able to construct a garrote. There is no need for excess imagination in this case to make sense of it all.
 
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