FL - 17-yo Teen Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #4

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  • #141
God. You guys, make me understand. Here in the Netherlands it's the prosecutors who decide whether to prosecute someone or not. The police collects evidence and presents it to the prosecutors. Do police in the States have so much power that they can decide whether or not to prosecute someone? How can you just take someone's word that he's innocent and that it was self defense?

That's the way it's supposed to work here as well Nali; however, as evidenced by this case, we see plainly that LE chose to believe Zimmerman without any sort of investigation.
 
  • #142
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html
Use of Deadly Force for Lawful Self-Defense

Q. What if I am in my vehicle?

A. A person has no duty to retreat in his lawfully occupied vehicle against a person who was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering or had unlawfully and forcefully entered an occupied vehicle or had unlawfully and forcefully removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will from the occupied vehicle.

Q. When is a Handgun "Concealed?"

A. The Florida Legislature defines a concealed firearm as any firearm “carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal it from the ordinary sight of another person.” A person carrying a concealed firearm without a license is guilty of a felony of the third degree. The penalty for this offense is a prison term of up to five years.

Q. Are there special laws that apply to the use of Handguns?

A. Yes, special laws apply anytime anyone uses deadly force, whether or not the weapon is concealed. Florida law defines deadly force as force that is likely to cause death or great bodily harm. When you carry a handgun, you possess a weapon of deadly force. The law considers even an unloaded gun to be a deadly weapon when it is pointed at someone.

Q. When can I use my handgun to protect myself?

A. Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are:

Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;
Trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping.

Using or displaying a handgun in any other circumstances could result in your conviction for crimes such as improper exhibition of a firearm, manslaughter, or worse.

Example of the kind of attack that will not justify defending yourself with deadly force: Two neighbors got into a fight, and one of them tried to hit the other by swinging a garden hose. The neighbor who was being attacked with the hose shot the other in the chest. The court upheld his conviction for aggravated battery with a firearm, because an attack with a garden hose is not the kind of violent assault that justifies responding with deadly force.

Summary

1. Never display a handgun to gain "leverage" in an argument, even if it isn't loaded or you never intend to use it.

2. The amount of force that you use to defend yourself must not be excessive under the circumstances.

Never use deadly force in self-defense unless you are afraid that if you don't, you will be killed or seriously injured;
Verbal threats never justify your use of deadly force;
If you think someone has a weapon and will use it unless you kill him, be sure you are right and are not overreacting to the situation.

3. The law permits you to carry a concealed weapon for self-defense. Carrying a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman or a "good samaritan."

4. Never carry your concealed weapon into any place where the statute prohibits carrying it.

This is not a complete summary of all the statutes and court opinions on the use of deadly force. Because the concealed weapons statute specifies that concealed weapons are to be used for lawful self-defense, we have not attempted to summarize the body of law on lawful defense of property. This information is not intended as legal advice. Every self-defense case has its own unique set of facts, and it is unwise to try to predict how a particular case would be decided. It is clear, however, that the law protects people who keep their tempers under control and use deadly force only as a last resort.
 
  • #143
  • #144
It just amazes me that people who support Zimmerman or want to lay some blame on Trayvon say that he should not have tried to run from some stranger who was following him. I wonder if they tell their kids if somebody is following you that you should just stand there and let them have their way with you?

It is my opinion that we all swarmed on Zimmerman ME INCLUDED because the immediate impression of a young boy unarmed is what we see.
As more and more information comes out, including the detailed 911 call.
The information begins to show other things.
I do not think that swarming around GZ like a flock of parasites was fair. I did it too.
I do think that bringing in Al Sharpton is not a call for justice, but a call for a riot.
I want to see Justice for TM - Whatever that means.
I do not want to see GZ harmed if it was just a string of errors.
I definitly do not want to see Al Sharpton at every Black person shooting. Where is he when a white person is shot?
He does not help the divide, he makes it worse.
 
  • #145
  • #146
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes...ing=&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.07.html


1) The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.


(3) A person who causes the death of any person under the age of 18 by culpable negligence under s. 827.03(3) commits aggravated manslaughter of a child, a felony of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
 
  • #147
You are right...TM is the Victim.
But Seems that Al Sharpton has changed that plan.
Making GZ a victim of circumstances.
I want to see fair trial for TM but not the way they are going at it.
It is not fair play in my book.
Al Sharpton does not do anything but set up racial riots.

Why do we keep bringing up Al Sharpton and riots?

There were NO riots, none. Sharpton isn't calling for riots.

How in the world does it make GZ a victim of circimstance?
 
  • #148
  • #149
I think that Mr Zimmerman and his Attorney are going to have a very hard road to prove that he only met force with equal force to save his life. It is going to be very difficult to equate the force of someone who is unarmed vs a loaded gun. So he has some very specific legal hurdles, he first has to PROVE that he was being attacked, that he did not begin the confrontation by touching or trying to stop Mr, Martin in any way, and that he was attacked by Mr. Martin, he is going to have to prove that he had a REASONABLE fear for his life...and the fear must be seen to be reasonable considering the totality of the circumstances, he will have to point to specific reasons that he had to fear for his life the vague idea that Mr. Martin was suspcious even though he was really doing nothing wrong is not going to be sufficient, and then he is going to have to prove that the force that he used was not excessive to stop the attack...

O' I do in fact agree very much with your assertion. However, this isn't Mr. Zimmerman's burden to prove that rest with the prosecution. If Mr. Zimmerman is eventually charged then he'll be the defendant in a court of law. And as we all know it's never the defendant's job to prove his/her innocence. But again there is very few facts that have been released regarding the incident. SPD at the time of the shooting didn't find any evidence that would indicate this was anything other than self-defense. As time progresses more evidence may come to light but right now the public/media are just speculating as to what transpired the evening Mr. Martin lost his life.

I feel bad for the Martin family, I even attended the rally in Fort Mellon park and gave a donation. Nevertheless, just because I feel sad for the Martin Family. I also don't want to see a man railroaded off to jail over a witch hunt. I've yet to hear any evidence that doesn't say Mr. Zimmerman wasn't justified in self-defense... Neither his age or size has anything to do with exercising self-defense. One doesn't have to be some sort of frightened little scaredy cat to resort to self-defense. All that is necessary is for a person to believe they're in reasonable danger of serious harm. If Mr. Martin gave any sort of verbal threat such as "I'm going to kill you" that threat has to be taken seriously. If Mr. Martin was physically punching and hitting Mr. Zimmerman at the time of the threat then Mr. Zimmerman very well had reason to believe Mr. Martin intended to make good on that threat.

Do I think Mr. Zimmerman made several mistakes. Yes I do... I also think Mr Martin by no intended fault of his own probably added fuel to a fire by creating a situation that brought more suspicion on himself... Anyhow, I think the further investigation of this incident will bear this out. However, in the end it might just turnout given the circumstances just before the trigger was pulled Mr. Zimmerman had little choice but do what he did... The sad part is a young man lost his life all on account of some very bad missteps and tragic twist that lead both individuals to assume false beliefs of the others intentions. It became a sick self-fulfilling prophecy for both, that could have easily been avoided had both not let their imaginations run wild.
 
  • #150
Evasion saves your life. That is what you teach your kids when a strange man is chasing them in a neighborhood. You don't teach your kids to stand there listening to a stranger.

:goodpost:

Which is exactly what has me so :waitasec: with the people that are saying, suggesting, implying, inferring, etc., that Trayvon is culpable for this situation in any way because he walked fast or ran from GZ or didn't answer his question, etc.

I'd never tell my teenagers or even my grown kids to stop and let a stranger catch up with you that is following you. No way. I say, get to a safe location as fast as possible and if they are still following you, call the police.

IMO
 
  • #151
I have the same question.
Maybe just maybe it would show they were not looking for the boy the night he wnt missing.
Just maybe they did not call - would not make them look good at all.

Its possible, because of police mishandling of the situation, that the family did not trust them enough to release that info.
 
  • #152

Yeah, but were they wearing hoodies and look like they were "on drugs"? :rolleyes:
 
  • #153
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes...ing=&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.11.html
782.11 Unnecessary killing to prevent unlawful act.—Whoever shall unnecessarily kill another, either while resisting an attempt by such other person to commit any felony, or to do any other unlawful act, or after such attempt shall have failed, shall be deemed guilty of manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
History.—s. 13, ch. 1637, 1868; RS 2388; GS 3213; RGS 5043; CGL 7145; s. 719, ch. 71-136.
 
  • #154
You have got to be kidding me.....

What a nice way to tell a parent that their child was murdered. Absolutely unbelievable Sanford Police Department.

Three police cars soon pulled up and a detective asked Tracy for a recent picture of his son. "I had one on my phone, so I showed it to him," Tracy says, his voice tightening. "He told me he was going to show me a photo and ask if it was my son. He pulled out a photo of Trayvon's dead body. And the nightmare began."

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20581404,00.html
 
  • #155
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes...ing=&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.04.html

2) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
 
  • #156
There was a considerable period of time on the 911 call when Zimmerman said Trayvon took off running - in fact, early on in the call. I listened to the tape again, and when the dispatcher asks for Zimmerman's address, he only gives the number and says - I think - "I don't want to give that, I don't know where he is." You'll have to listen to it and see if that's what you hear. The dispatcher didn't push Zimmerman for his address, so I'm going to assume that's probably what Zimmerman said.

Trayvon's father is on video, MSNBC, standing in the area where this all took place, he pointed and said Trayvon's destination was a football field away. If Trayvon was running and had a head start on Zimmerman, who was not running while on the call, he should have made it home, IMO. Why didn't he just run home?

I've listened to GZ's call several times and it does sound to me like GZ is running. Some of his words are a bit choppy and he sounds breathless on and off like someone does when they are walking fast, jogging or running. It also seems obvious to me that the police dispatcher that he was talking to thought he was on the move as well since he was asked if he was following him.

According to Trayvon's gf she said that at one point Trayvon thought he had gotten away but then says, no he's back or there he is again. Something to that effect. At the time when he thought he had lost GZ, he might have quit running. We also have GZ saying Trayvon was running and we have the gf saying Trayvon told her he would just walk fast - so who knows whether he was walking fast or running.

Honestly, for me, the only thing relevant is that Trayvon was going away from GZ, not towards him. That is what is significant. GZ followed and pursued Trayvon. I don't see how someone can do that and then claim self defense under the SYG law. Per what many legal experts, the individuals that wrote the law, the former governor that signed the law and other legal minds that have read the law - they all say that what GZ did is not protected under that law. The police are who have said he is protected under that law.

I'm inclined to take the law authors and other lawyers interpretation of the law over LE interpreting this particular law since it seems to be a very confusing and broad law. They should have arrested him and let the prosecutor and judge figure out whether or not he is protected under the SYG law.


IMO
 
  • #157
The trouble with Neighborhood Watch programs is they are more like guidelines rather than a set of laws. Unless the specific neighborhood sets out in writing a set of particular rules that it's volunteers are to adhere too. Then there is nothing that forbids the volunteers from exercising the same rights they would have as individuals. In other words a private citizen can ask anyone walking through their neighborhood what's their business. And unless the Neighborhood Watch program hasn't strictly forbid the carrying of firearms while serving as a neighborhood watchman. Then those individuals have right to carry a firearm in so long as they are doing so within State laws.

As for 911 dispatchers, they can only offer recommendations to a caller, the caller is under no legal obligation to obey their recommendations. Such as in the case of Sarah McKinley, an 18 year old mother who called 911 about a break-in. The 911 dispatcher Diane Graham said she couldn’t offer advice on whether she could shoot the man who was pounding on her door. At the time, McKinley was holding a shotgun and pistol after barricading the door to her trailer with a couch. The suspect eventually broke into the house and McKinley fatally shot him.

Yes, this is the ugly truth and it may not suit some people's expectations but that's how the letter of the law is, as it stands.

BBM

That is hardly a comparable set of facts.

McKinley was in her own home, alone with her infant son, with an armed intruder ready to break down her door. The operator told her she could not tell her to shoot, but said "you do what you have to do to keep yourself safe".

GZ acknowledged the operator's statement "we don't need you to do that" but proceeded to follow Trayvon anyway. It may not have been illegal to disregard the instruction, but it was flat-out stupid and unnecessary - unlike what Sarah McKinley did to protect herself and her son.
 
  • #158
  • #159
The trouble with Neighborhood Watch programs is they are more like guidelines rather than a set of laws. Unless the specific neighborhood sets out in writing a set of particular rules that it's volunteers are to adhere too. Then there is nothing that forbids the volunteers from exercising the same rights they would have as individuals. In other words a private citizen can ask anyone walking through their neighborhood what's their business. And unless the Neighborhood Watch program hasn't strictly forbid the carrying of firearms while serving as a neighborhood watchman. Then those individuals have right to carry a firearm in so long as they are doing so within State laws.

As for 911 dispatchers, they can only offer recommendations to a caller, the caller is under no legal obligation to obey their recommendations. Such as in the case of Sarah McKinley, an 18 year old mother who called 911 about a break-in. The 911 dispatcher Diane Graham said she couldn’t offer advice on whether she could shoot the man who was pounding on her door. At the time, McKinley was holding a shotgun and pistol after barricading the door to her trailer with a couch. The suspect eventually broke into the house and McKinley fatally shot him.

Yes, this is the ugly truth and it may not suit some people's expectations but that's how the letter of the law is, as it stands.

The two aren't even close to being the same.
 
  • #160
Not just walking past houses, but darting up under porches, and hiding his face when he notices he is being followed.

BBM

#1 Putting the Neighborhood watch thing aside for the moment... He had as much right as you do to ask someone walking past your house why they are there.

#2, Evasion will only raise suspicion... Therefore if you have a stranger asking such things be cautious but don't make things worse by creating more suspicion on yourself.

As I've said before as time goes by everyone is going to learn this was nothing more than an incident cultivated by many missteps and errors on both parties fault that resulted in a young man losing his life.
 
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