GA - Ahmaud Arbery, 25, jogger, fatally shot by former PD and son, Brunswick, Feb 2020 #2

[GoBuckeyes]

Put up No Trespassing signs, and orange construction barrier fencing at entrances. If no work was going to be done for a long time, board it up. Call police when cameras showed anyone trespassing.

Mr. English did call the police. He used the non emergency number, bc he was an hour away. His person wasn't being threatened at that moment. He rightfully used the non emergency number.

As far as cones and no trespassing signs, MOO, most people (as in, everyone who would be fit to be held accountable) know that to be on someone else's property uninvited is trespassing. Will anyone defending AA's curiosity admit that he used poor judgement in that regard only, please?

AMOO, This case isn't going to come down to what happened when 4 individuals' lives intersected for a few moments on an afternoon in February. AA's life will be examined, as is the right of the defense attorney(s) in putting forth a vigorous defense. The burglaries that had been ongoing in the community and the community's general sense of being on edge will be considered. Posts on the community's FB and Nextdoor pages will be picked clean, as both sides look for evidence supporting their case. And the lives and actions of the 3 defendants will be picked apart: conversations they had with neighbors, each other, and LE leading to that day. Finally, they'll get around to those few minutes on an afternoon in February, and the jury will decide if their actions rose to the level of murder. I take no position on that because I've not seen all of the evidence.

I will say that it troubles me that we easily put 1 person's actions in a broader context, one that's shaded in humanity, complexity, and interests. In some cases, our own interests, as some WS members have readily admitted to trespassing out of curiosity. But with 3 of the 4 involved, it seems most are unwillingly to extend to them anything but a guilty verdict, even far before all of the facts have come in. Further, due to the absolute media circus in the day leading up to 2 of the 3 arrests, the DA's a bit hamstrung by some of the public demanding nothing less than the death penalty. I'm not certain that, if their actions are taken in context, that a jury will find them guilty of murder. This may and up being a classic case of overcharging. We'll see. AMOO IMHO

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Put up No Trespassing signs, and orange construction barrier fencing at entrances. If no work was going to be done for a long time, board it up. Call police when cameras showed anyone trespassing.

Mr. English did call the police. He used the non emergency number, bc he was an hour away. His person wasn't being threatened at that moment. He rightfully used the non emergency number.

As far as cones and no trespassing signs, MOO, most people (as in, everyone who would be fit to be held accountable) know that to be on someone else's property uninvited is trespassing. Will anyone defending AA's curiosity admit that he used poor judgement in that regard only, please?

AMOO, This case isn't going to come down to what happened when 4 individuals' lives intersected for a few moments on an afternoon in February. AA's life will be examined, as is the right of the defense attorney(s) in putting forth a vigorous defense. The burglaries that had been ongoing in the community and the community's general sense of being on edge will be considered. Posts on the community's FB and Nextdoor pages will be picked clean, as both sides look for evidence supporting their case. And the lives and actions of the 3 defendants will be picked apart: conversations they had with neighbors, each other, and LE leading to that day. Finally, they'll get around to those few minutes on an afternoon in February, and the jury will decide if their actions rose to the level of murder. I take no position on that because I've not seen all of the evidence.

I will say that it troubles me that we easily put 1 person's actions in a broader context, one that's shaded in humanity, complexity, and interests. In some cases, our own interests, as some WS members have readily admitted to trespassing out of curiosity. But with 3 of the 4 involved, it seems most are unwillingly to extend to them anything but a guilty verdict, even far before all of the facts have come in. Further, due to the absolute media circus in the day leading up to 2 of the 3 arrests, the DA's a bit hamstrung by some of the public demanding nothing less than the death penalty. I'm not certain that, if their actions are taken in context, that a jury will find them guilty of murder. This may and up being a classic case of overcharging. We'll see. AMOO IMHO

 

[GoBuckeyes]

That 1 LWOP would be Justin Ross Harris. Interesting statistics, thanks.

I agree with your thoughts about the DP. I have no issue with it morally, I have issues with it because it is a colo$$al fail, and we certainly don't need more fuel added to this fire. Yeah, maybe they are trying to get him to flip, we will have to wait and see what they have on him.

Or maybe they are in the impossible position of trying to appease the part of the public that was doxxing anyone related to the case, calling for street justice on social media, and now has poor AA's mother demanding 3 death penalties. AMOO

 

[GoBuckeyes]

It looks like SM posts are painting WB as actively involved in a pre determined effort to confront certain trespassers violently rather than being an impulsive participant in a citizens arrest.

My guess is that the SM posts in question either demonstrate that WB agreed to assist in an effort to confront selected trespassers with weapons or with a "what ever it takes" mentality- or WB encouraged / directed the MMs to do so.

Given the MMs speedy assumption of lead "roles" that day, I am guessing that WB had pledged his support for an armed encounter- and then provided that support.

That's a lot of guessing. Any links? TIA

 

[kaen]

Or maybe they are in the impossible position of trying to appease the part of the public that was doxxing anyone related to the case, calling for street justice on social media, and now has poor AA's mother demanding 3 death penalties. AMOO

I don't think that the prosecution or GBI would go for charges just based on public opinion. I think they have evidence that these men hunted him down and killed him.

The call for street justice came AFTER two prosecutors and the local PD failed to investigate and used the record of Mr. Arbery and family members to justify a shooting. Funny, that it turns out the Officer Rash had suggested to the locals to call the disgraced, dismissed killer's father to help with the issue. Funny, that there is SM posts between people in the neighborhood about trespassers and it seems there may have been a concerted effort to go after people who had been on Mr. English's property. However, none of that appears in the letter that DA Barnhill wrote. The father of the killer was released from his job for non-compliance but that is not in the DA's letter. Are people fed up with what appears to be an office that doesn't treat people fairly under two DAs? I think so. I think rightly so.

Not sure what you mean about Mr. Arbery's mother in the position of calling for the death penalty. If he was my son and was killed after three men chased him down, tried to corner him and then shot him, I would be calling for the stiffest sentence available as well. Her son was murdered by a gun toting gang of people. He was on foot and they were in vehicles. They had guns and he did not. He tried to get away (according to the arrest warrant of the third man charged in his killing) multiple times but was hemmed in and pursued. I would want my pound of flesh if he was mine, especially after he had been so poorly represented by the DA's offices charged with being his voice in getting justice.

AS always, JMHO with facts that have been reported in MSM.

 

[nao]

Most of my family and friends are in the construction business and also spec home building. The work sites are open. Tools are never left at site. People walk thru them all the time especially the spec homes. It is expected. Once house get to finishing..they get locked down. Then it would be break and enter.

 

[scapa]

Having read the article upthread that details the local FB/ NextDoor group, I wonder how much of a perceived leadership position GM might have had, as exLE — though he may not have gone into any detail regarding the suspension of his arrest powers, etc.

My sense is that part of the underlying psych of this episode was the need of GM to assert expertise and leadership against a perceived threat, however real, and regardless of the accurate and/or immediate knowledge he or the group actually possessed.

 

[kaen]

Having read the article upthread that details the local FB/ NextDoor group, I wonder how much of a perceived leadership position GM might have had, as exLE — though he may not have gone into any detail regarding the suspension of his arrest powers, etc.

My sense is that part of the underlying psych of this episode was the need of GM to assert expertise and leadership against a perceived threat, however real, and regardless of the accurate and/or immediate knowledge he or the group actually possessed.

I am sure he was bolstered by Officer Rash's assurance that the neighbors could call him.

I have seen some pretty strange stuff in my neighborhood's Next D**r page. I think there are neighbors who were excited that this killer would be able to "get the bad guy" from a variety of perspectives (hating crime, wanting to feel safe, or some racism). I can't find the article but people of color (one who has lived in this area for many years) were interviewed for a story and reported that they waved to people driving by and got nothing back, had sideways glances from some neighbors, etc. No violence ever befell these folks but some reported not feeling particularly welcome, including a veteran who had owned his home and had rented it out until he retired.

I do think that some in the neighborhood wanted safety but I am also inclined to think that some had feeling about the changing complexion of their enclave. It will be interesting to see which trespassers were mentioned on the pages and which ones weren't.

 

[MikeF]

I came into this kind of late, so I'm curious if there has been a discussion about the “0 Regrets One Life To Live” tattoo that was seen on the "light skinned" black male. I know I could see tats, but not something I slowed down with the video to really focus on. I also know the autopsy reports talks about Arbery having tattoos on his upper extremities. It seems fairly simple to match up if Arbery has that tattoo. If not then at least one of those unknowns is not him. JMO

 

[Nadi]

I came into this kind of late, so I'm curious if there has been a discussion about the “0 Regrets One Life To Live” tattoo that was seen on the "light skinned" black male. I know I could see tats, but not something I slowed down with the video to really focus on. I also know the autopsy reports talks about Arbery having tattoos on his upper extremities. It seems fairly simple to match up if Arbery has that tattoo. If not then at least one of those unknowns is not him. JMO

I haven’t seen anything about matching up tattoos but I’ve yet to see an image of AA where it’s conceivable that anyone could mistake him for “light skinned”.

 

[MikeF]

I haven’t seen anything about matching up tattoos but I’ve yet to see an image of AA where it’s conceivable that anyone could mistake him for “light skinned”.

I agree.

 

[casesensitive]

I don't think that the prosecution or GBI would go for charges just based on public opinion. I think they have evidence that these men hunted him down and killed him.

The call for street justice came AFTER two prosecutors and the local PD failed to investigate and used the record of Mr. Arbery and family members to justify a shooting. Funny, that it turns out the Officer Rash had suggested to the locals to call the disgraced, dismissed killer's father to help with the issue. Funny, that there is SM posts between people in the neighborhood about trespassers and it seems there may have been a concerted effort to go after people who had been on Mr. English's property. However, none of that appears in the letter that DA Barnhill wrote. The father of the killer was released from his job for non-compliance but that is not in the DA's letter. Are people fed up with what appears to be an office that doesn't treat people fairly under two DAs? I think so. I think rightly so.

Not sure what you mean about Mr. Arbery's mother in the position of calling for the death penalty. If he was my son and was killed after three men chased him down, tried to corner him and then shot him, I would be calling for the stiffest sentence available as well. Her son was murdered by a gun toting gang of people. He was on foot and they were in vehicles. They had guns and he did not. He tried to get away (according to the arrest warrant of the third man charged in his killing) multiple times but was hemmed in and pursued. I would want my pound of flesh if he was mine, especially after he had been so poorly represented by the DA's offices charged with being his voice in getting justice.

AS always, JMHO with facts that have been reported in MSM.

I totally agree with your comments, but this is not a death penalty case imo, and I feel confident in predicting that a jury will reject a death sentence if prosecutors go for it. AA deserves justice and I worry that a jury will be put in a position that might deny him justice if prosecutors go for a death penalty trial.

 

[kaen]

I totally agree with your comments, but this is not a death penalty case imo, and I feel confident in predicting that a jury will reject a death sentence if prosecutors go for it. AA deserves justice and I worry that a jury will be put in a position that might deny him justice if prosecutors go for a death penalty trial.

I believe the DA will come up with the right level of charge. I further believe that the DA will be respectful of this family and help them to understand any charges, even if it is the DP.

I don't think that we have seen enough evidence to determine the charges. The GBI head made it seem like they have lots that they have gone through and more to sort through. I think the SM material may get us into the realm of premeditated murder.

I wasn't convinced the Holly Bobo killers would be found guilty or that Mark Sievers would get the DP. Or, that the Moorers would serve time in the Heather Elvis case. I think the biggest asset a DA has is their command of the evidence, telling the best truth and story they have and engaging the jury.

I agree with you though. I want justice for this young man. I want to believe in the system that is in place. We will see, I guess.

 

[tayaway]

Has there been any discussion about phone texts? What about the search of WB's house? Those elements aren't social media.

 

[Cryptic]

That's a lot of guessing. Any links? TIA

I used terms like "guessing" because the trial is in the future and has not happened yet. As a result, the use of absolutes like "will" did not seem right.

In either case, here the link to the press conference regarding Williams where the GBI director states that the arrest was made in part on SM exchanges:

 

[Cryptic]

The burglaries that had been ongoing in the community and the community's general sense of being on edge will be considered.

"Alleged" burglaries might be more accurate. Evidently only one individual has supplied supporting details on a stolen item (9mm, Smith and Wesson pistol).

The individual who previously claimed to of had 2K worth of fishing gear stolen appears to have either directly contradicted himself in later statements where he claims nothing was stolen- or he has greatly backed away from the claim.

In either case, though English was very concerned about trespassers on the property, but he evidently never reported the alleged theft of 2K worth of fishing gear from that same property to either the police or insurance. This just seems odd to me.

Likewise, other claimed incidents of theft / burglary were not reported to police either. I understand that reporting thefts is not mandatory and most people don't regarding low value items. I did not report low value items burglarized from my car once and lawn equipment that has "walked away" over the years.

But..... There is also the distinct possibility that the amount of burglaries in the neighborhood was being exaggerated via the "telephone game" and in one case, perhaps even fabricated.

 

[Leve]

Most of my family and friends are in the construction business and also spec home building. The work sites are open. Tools are never left at site. People walk thru them all the time especially the spec homes. It is expected. Once house get to finishing..they get locked down. Then it would be break and enter.

Maybe its a regional thing. I'm in Alabama, and its the same here. People walking thru a house under construction is pretty normal, in neighborhoods under construction it's encouraged. Once a house gets to a certain stage, it's locked. If someone is building their own home (not one to sell) they will put PRIVATE PROPERTY or NO TRESSPASSING signs. Then you know they are off limits.

Lots of people looking to buy a home want to find it semifinished so they can choose the cabinets, countertops, paint, flooring, ECT.

 

[watergirl62]

.

 

[Cryptic]

No sense in saying Arbery was not committing a felony if he didn't need to be for a citizen's arrest to be made.

Very true, it does not need to be a felony. But.... it does need to be a crime. Evidently, a Georgia court had previously ruled that criminal trespass of an open construction site needs one of two elements:

- A no trespassing sign

- The individual having been told by the owner or his agent that his presence at the site was not permitted.

Apparently, there was no posted sign and AA had never been informed by anybody that he was not permitted to enter. The lack of either may keep the vigilante squad from getting to first base regarding a citizens arrest defense (establish that the deceased actually committed a crime).

 

[Boxer]

Mr. English did call the police. He used the non emergency number, bc he was an hour away. His person wasn't being threatened at that moment. He rightfully used the non emergency number.

As far as cones and no trespassing signs, MOO, most people (as in, everyone who would be fit to be held accountable) know that to be on someone else's property uninvited is trespassing. Will anyone defending AA's curiosity admit that he used poor judgement in that regard only, please?

AMOO, This case isn't going to come down to what happened when 4 individuals' lives intersected for a few moments on an afternoon in February. AA's life will be examined, as is the right of the defense attorney(s) in putting forth a vigorous defense. The burglaries that had been ongoing in the community and the community's general sense of being on edge will be considered. Posts on the community's FB and Nextdoor pages will be picked clean, as both sides look for evidence supporting their case. And the lives and actions of the 3 defendants will be picked apart: conversations they had with neighbors, each other, and LE leading to that day. Finally, they'll get around to those few minutes on an afternoon in February, and the jury will decide if their actions rose to the level of murder. I take no position on that because I've not seen all of the evidence.

I will say that it troubles me that we easily put 1 person's actions in a broader context, one that's shaded in humanity, complexity, and interests. In some cases, our own interests, as some WS members have readily admitted to trespassing out of curiosity. But with 3 of the 4 involved, it seems most are unwillingly to extend to them anything but a guilty verdict, even far before all of the facts have come in. Further, due to the absolute media circus in the day leading up to 2 of the 3 arrests, the DA's a bit hamstrung by some of the public demanding nothing less than the death penalty. I'm not certain that, if their actions are taken in context, that a jury will find them guilty of murder. This may and up being a classic case of overcharging. We'll see. AMOO IMHO

TM brings the means kill, chases with vehicle, gets out of vehicle with finger on trigger, threatens deadly force to compel submission.

Possibly the Ms communicated intent on SM which has become part of the case.