GA GA - Shirley, 87, & Russell Dermond, 88, Putnam County, 2 May 2014 - #12

[kirkassoc]

If the gun they used just happened to be a registered weapon or if it could be tied to another crime, that would be all they needed to motivate them to remove the bullet (along with the target) and dispose of it where it would never be found (I presume out in the lake somewhere). They seemed to be meticulous about not leaving ANY evidence. If it were a "helter skelter" murder (as in the Manson case), the house would have been trashed and blood would have been everywhere. As it was, these killers even tried to stop the flow of blood with "towel dams." As far as we know, it doesn't even appear they entered into the main part of the house (her purse, their cellphones, etc. were still in the home, IIRC). However, it was mentioned, I believe in one of the podcasts, the towels came from one of the bathrooms near the garage.

This is only SUPPOSITION, but to me this sounds more like a "hit." A photo of a detached head, a photo of a deceased SD tied, beaten and battered, would be all the evidence needed to prove they had indeed carried out the plot. Who has enough money to pay for a crime like this and who has a reason to want it done?

I have some people in mind, but it seems impossible to find out their names, where they are located and the details of their lives over the past 10 years or so. It's only one avenue, but the trail from these horrific murders has to point back to someone, IMHO.

Helter/skelter would indicate to me....catch me if you can. This crime indicates this was very careful and premeditated. ALL MOO.

 

[dancinunderthemoon]

The killings themselves seemed planned bit a Problem for me is that the beheading didn't seem planned and I'm wondering abiut her being hauled away was even planned.....

For some reason the beheading and hauling her off happened spur of the moment my reasoning due to towels used from house and items used on her

If they shot him with a registered weapon....did they ever plan to shoot him?? Why would they then have to behead him?

weighting her with Solid concrete and securing them in a mesh bag to me indicates items they already had...WHO DOES IT THAT WAY?

I would think most of the evidence leading to a poi type held in this case might be the items used on her

I'm still curious about that blue mesh bag

Also still wondering if it was strangulation and he bit the peep leaving DNA in the mouth

They probably never suspected they'd get bit by an old guy

Still too many questions but definitley think they just came to kill

There was a reason she was hauled away at the spur of moment or as has been discussed maybe intended to haul both of them off but the lake isnt a good hiding place imo on a river split at swimming hole and fishing spot

If planned to haul both...where were they going to dumo them both?? Where she was found??

Imagine if they both surfaced 10 days later

What would that imply if anything?

If the gun they used just happened to be a registered weapon or if it could be tied to another crime, that would be all they needed to motivate them to remove the bullet (along with the target) and dispose of it where it would never be found (I presume out in the lake somewhere). They seemed to be meticulous about not leaving ANY evidence. If it were a "helter skelter" murder (as in the Manson case), the house would have been trashed and blood would have been everywhere. As it was, these killers even tried to stop the flow of blood with "towel dams." As far as we know, it doesn't even appear they entered into the main part of the house (her purse, their cellphones, etc. were still in the home, IIRC). However, it was mentioned, I believe in one of the podcasts, the towels came from one of the bathrooms near the garage.

This is only SUPPOSITION, but to me this sounds more like a "hit." A photo of a detached head, a photo of a deceased SD tied, beaten and battered, would be all the evidence needed to prove they had indeed carried out the plot. Who has enough money to pay for a crime like this and who has a reason to want it done?

I have some people in mind, but it seems impossible to find out their names, where they are located and the details of their lives over the past 10 years or so. It's only one avenue, but the trail from these horrific murders has to point back to someone, IMHO.

Helter/skelter would indicate to me....catch me if you can. This crime indicates this was very careful and premeditated. ALL MOO.

 

[fred&edna]

O/T (sorta)

Yes! SS and the Nuwaubians is covered in Episode 4 (A Cult Comes To Town) of True Crime Chronicles.

 

[dancinunderthemoon]

That's fallible too, surely there was dna from the perps on RD hands and under his nails. It's obvious there was a skirmish though reports say no signs of a struggle, yet RD had bloodied and bruised hands IIRC. Maybe it was SD blood on his hands from her head wounds but that would indicate that she was hit and killed in the ...........wait, maybe she was only KNOCKED out in the garage, that would make her much more manageable.....but then for some reason, transported her from the house to the split in the river..........did they want her FOUND but.......NOT RIGHT AWAY too, much later than RD would be found?


The Murders of Elderly Georgia Couple Russell and Shirley Dermond: A Beheading and No Leads

SS has no witnesses. He has no suspects. He has no motive, no DNA, no fingerprints. He doesn't even have a crime scene.


"It was a very clean cut," the sheriff said, just above the collar line. Whoever did it knew what they were doing, he said. It wasn't done in a frenzy.


According to this article.........they took their time.........clearly, trying to clean up with towels, going inside the house, wern't in a hurry to leave



Which keeps bringing me back to this

The location of the crime suggested that the offender felt comfortable in the area. He had been here before, and he felt that no one would interrupt the murder.
page 14

https://www.all-about-forensic-psyc...minal-profiling-from-crime-scene-analysis.pdf


Also from that site, pages 15 and 16 are interesting reads besides the sexual aspect......more detail after the following paragraph at site

Crime Assessment

The crime scene indicated the murder was one event, not one of a series of events. It also appeared to be a first-time killing, and the subject was not a typical organized offender. There were elements of both disorganization and organization; the offender might fall into a mixed category. A reconstruction of the crime/death scene provides an overall picture of the crime. To begin with the 15 victim was not necessarily stalked but instead confronted. What was her reaction? Did she recognize her assailant, fight him off, or try to get away'? The subject had to kill her to carry out his sexually violent fantasies. The murderer was on known territory and thus had a reason to be there at 6:30 in the morning: either he resided there or he was employed at this particular complex.

 

[watcher9]

"It was a very clean cut," the sheriff said, just above the collar line. Whoever did it knew what they were doing, he said. It wasn't done in a frenzy.

Doesn't sound like a butcher knife or a hunting knife was used. Maybe something like a small knife or a scalpel? What about a medical student?
Lake Oconee is centrally located between the Mercer University School of Medicine to the south in Macon, the Medical College of Georgia to the east in Augusta and both the Emory University School of Medicine and the Morehouse Medical School to the west in Atlanta.

 

[Deleted member 162919]

Nothing ever goes as expected. I agree the killers were very comfortable with the area. To be able to go undetected would mean they had a great knowledge of the area and probably an escape plan if something changed . SS has stated he doesn't believe they were killed there and that's possible which tells me the killers were either from the neighborhood and used property they owned or they contained the killings to a place in the house that was easy to clean up like a bathroom. I still go back to my earlier 2014 suspect which if I mention on here again they say I will be kicked off but it's happened before in that persons profession and it keeps coming back to my thoughts.

This no suspects is a crock because in the last podcast SS did say he suspects 2 people had something to do with this killing . In order for them to have knowledge of the killing or something tying them to the killers he has to have a suspect. He has a valid reason to think the 2 people have knowledge of this killing. He says it's a gut feeling but for someone like him to have that gut feeling and enough of it to question them and let them know he suspects they had something to do with it says a lot.

Hope everyone enjoys their summer see you in the fall

 

[dancinunderthemoon]

Doesn't sound like a butcher knife or a hunting knife was used. Maybe something like a small knife or a scalpel? What about a medical student?
Lake Oconee is centrally located between the Mercer University School of Medicine to the south in Macon, the Medical College of Georgia to the east in Augusta and both the Emory University School of Medicine and the Morehouse Medical School to the west in Atlanta.

What about one! for sure. You're right.....Is anatomy offered in all colleges as part of the core classes? IDK
Milledgeville college campus is nearby

And then what a about a doctor, they all took anatomy, doesnt have to be a surgeon necessarily IMO

WOnder if the Dermonds knew any doctors or medical students.....

 

[watcher9]

What about one! for sure. You're right.....Is anatomy offered in all colleges as part of the core classes? IDK
Milledgeville college campus is nearby

And then what a about a doctor, they all took anatomy, doesnt have to be a surgeon necessarily IMO

WOnder if the Dermonds knew any doctors or medical students.....

I don't know. After posting above, I was thinking why would someone want to be careful and precise with their cut? Why not just hack it off? Maybe they were practicing their technique?

The Dermonds weren't benefactors for anyone or anything, were they?
I still don't think it was someone in the family.

 

[deugirtni]

I don't know. After posting above, I was thinking why would someone want to be careful and precise with their cut? Why not just hack it off? Maybe they were practicing their technique?...

Good point..
Can't see why someone would need to have a practiced technique for removing human heads?? Perhaps the killer had some kind of a plan in mind on what he was doing with that head after it was removed?.. ie 'mounting' it onto something?? photographing it for someone (perhaps as proof)??

 

[dancinunderthemoon]

maybe it was the only way they knew how to take a head off........doesnt sound like some angry crazed drugged out person or they may have used an ax maybe

 

[watcher9]

maybe it was the only way they knew how to take a head off........doesnt sound like some angry crazed drugged out person or they may have used an ax maybe

Wonder how long it would take it if they knew how to do it? Under five minutes?

 

[fred&edna]

maybe it was the only way they knew how to take a head off........doesnt sound like some angry crazed drugged out person or they may have used an ax maybe

Didn't SS say in a podcast "a knife" (when asked what was used) ??

 

[fred&edna]

Actually, Kirk's post (#21) makes alot of sense. (Fishing/filet knife and mesh bags, etc).

 

[Nellers]

What if the killer was trying to access a secret safe or something, and took the head to use for a retina scan?

 

[dancinunderthemoon]

Wonder how long it would take it if they knew how to do it? Under five minutes?

THAT...................I would not know! LOL

I think I was thinking more along the lines of "civility" for lack of a better word

Some say it's easy, some say it's not but we do know from the autopsy as I mentioned before that the cut was in the perfect location of the smallest part of the the verterbrae in that area. I posted it back in the thread if you want to look it up , it was pretty interesting how it was done, seemed very professional as if they knew for certain just what they were doing

 

[dancinunderthemoon]

What if the killer was trying to access a secret safe or something, and took the head to use for a retina scan?

could they have just taken an eyeball?

 

[dancinunderthemoon]

Good point..
Can't see why someone would need to have a practiced technique for removing human heads?? Perhaps the killer had some kind of a plan in mind on what he was doing with that head after it was removed?.. ie 'mounting' it onto something?? photographing it for someone (perhaps as proof)??

that's a mafia thing, to take the head back as proof.......... That's the first thing eveyrone said in the beginning of this case....my 87 yr old aunt said as well LOL.....

so SS says for every thing professionally done in this case, there was something equally UNprofessional in this case, the reason its hard to pinpoint the "who" or motive........

what does that imply about the person committing this crime?

 

[1&2&3]

Would skilled hunters be able to do this clean cut on a human?

Reading the above posts on how clean the cut on the head was, my mind immediately thinks of a surgeon. With so many medical schools in the area, would a surgeon be able to borrow a surgical tool to perform this heinous act? Or what about a male operating room nurse?

 

[SeesSeas]

What if the killer was trying to access a secret safe or something, and took the head to use for a retina scan?

Interesting thought re: retina scan.
I am not familiar with specifics of eye scanning, but found an article which seems to indicate an iris scan could work to ID an 'alive' body in relation to "iris recognition systems". Retina scan and iris scan won't work on an "amputated eye".
Iris Recognition vs. Retina Scanning - What are the Differences? - M2SYS Blog On Biometric Technology
[...]
Here is an overview of some similarities and differences between iris and retina scanning:

Similarities:

• Low occurrence of false positives
• Extremely low (almost 0%) false negative rates
• Highly reliable because no two people have the same iris or retinal pattern
• Speedy results: Identity of the subject is verified very quickly
• The capillaries in the iris and retina decompose too rapidly to use a amputated eye to gain access

Differences:

• Retinal scan measurement accuracy can be affected by disease; iris fine texture remains remarkably stable
• An iris scan is no different than taking a normal photograph of a person and can be performed at a distance; for retinal scanning the eye must be brought very close to an eyepiece (like looking into a microscope)
• Iris scanning is more widely accepted as a commercial modality than retinal scanning
• Retinal scanning is considered to be invasive, iris is not

[...]

 

[fred&edna]

I believe it's becoming more difficult to "fool" biometric scanners, the ones involving iris and fingerprint recognition.
And retina scans involve blood vessels... Imo... If the blood vessels are dying/dead... Well, no entry/access.