Gene Hackman dead at 95: Iconic actor and wife, 63, are found dead with their dog at Santa Fe home. #3

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  • #581
I'm gifting this article, published this morning in the NYT, in case it hasn't already been posted.

A Haunting Coda

Like so many others, I have an overwhelming need to believe their suffering was minimal, if there had to be any at all.

Like so many others, I think also about the dog. Life is too cruel by half, sometimes.
 
  • #582
But is that really the business of the general public? I think we have learned everything we need to know from the investigation report that was released.

JMO
Really, none of this is our business, imo. But for LE narrowing the timeline down to be as exact as humanly possible given the material they have, would be important for legal reasons -- ie even for what will happen to the dogs. It also will affect the LE's standing if anyone challenges their finding. Who is in charge of the estate will decide the dog's fate. It's part of the case, imo, because like so much else, the case is unusual. The scenario of who died first and when is an old who-dunnit theme. I never thought of it happening in real life.
 
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  • #583
Really, none of this is our business. But for LE narrowing the timeline down to be as exact as humanly possible given the material they have, would be important for legal reasons -- ie even for what will happen to the dogs. Who is in charge of the estate may decide the dog's fate. It's part of the case, imo, because like so much else, the case is unusual.
Wouldn't surprise me if the entire estate of GH and BA is to go to the on going care of their dogs.

JMO
 
  • #584
Releasing when Betsy's las communication was does not take away any of their dignity in death. Released whether her husband soiled himself does.
Who said that information regarding if GH soiled himself should be released to the public?
 
  • #585
Apparently not true in NM. Spouse who outlives the other by 120 hours in the heir. 5 days! The timeline would have to be as clear as possible, since a lot could be at stake.

I think that would only be in effect if they died without wills. Other a simultaneous death clause has become a common inclusion in wills, often both deaths occurring within 30 days are considered at the same time.

But regardless, iirc in the early days of news reporting on this tragedy it was revealed the Hackman home was held in a lawyers trust so that means beneficiary arrangements would be separate from personal property. Perhaps GH’s entire estate was involved, but as that’s a private matter, we don’t know. But senior wealthy people often have well organized estates in order to minimize probate and tax consequences.

“Typically, wills include a standard simultaneous death clause mirroring the state statute. However, Hackman and his wife may have wills dictating what should happen if they die simultaneously or if their order of death cannot be determined. For example, they could stipulate that the time period extend to 30 or 90 days.”
 
  • #586
I apologize if this was already suggested, but I wonder if in the time he was alone in the home, he did come upon her and thought she was just cold and put the space heater on. If she was very ill with a fever, I doubt she would have needed it.
 
  • #587
I'm gifting this article, published this morning in the NYT, in case it hasn't already been posted.

A Haunting Coda

Like so many others, I have an overwhelming need to believe their suffering was minimal, if there had to be any at all.

Like so many others, I think also about the dog. Life is too cruel by half, sometimes.
Thank you. I meant to post this earlier because it cleared up a lot of the other rumors/they didn't listen to to press conference.
Its written with respect and not just the horror of the situation (ahem British headlines)
 
  • #588
Wills. Estates.

A post asked about wills & what happens when order of deaths cannot be determined, i.e. if deaths are presumed to have occurred in order of seniority, so the younger decedent is deemed to have survived the elder decedent.

In the US, it varies by state, but most states, including NM, have adopted the Uniform Simultaneous Death Act *which is intended to alleviate the problem of simultaneous death in determining inheritance.*
In NM as part of its Probate Code: "Requirement of survival by one hundred twenty hours"
"... an individual who is not established by clear and convincing evidence to have survived
an event, including the death of another individual, by one hundred twenty hours is deemed to have predeceased the event."

Hypothetical about a NM couple, w each having some assets, financial accts, etc in own name.
If each had a will providing that the other would inherit some or all, &
If they died w'in 120 hrs of each other, i.e., ~ 4 1/2 days, &
If neither of their wills included a clause setting forth a time other than 120 hours,
Or if neither had a will & died w’in 120 hrs of each other.
Then…
… each of their probate estates would be distributed as if the other had pre-deceased them.
IOW, Harry Husband’s probate estate, whether he died w or w’out valid will, would be distributed as tho Wanda Wife died before he did. And vice versa w Wanda Wife’s probate estate.

For couples dying close in time to each other, where the order of death cannot be established, without the USDAct, the property of one decedent would be subjected to delays & legal expenses of probate two times, instead of only once. For more detail, see USDA link.*

I referred ^ to a generic H & W, not specifically to Mr. H. or Ms A.; it’s likely imo that they MAY have established individual trusts and/or a joint trust* (looks like one or both did). ***
And w certain, specific clauses most likely in those instruments, ^ NM statute would not be applicable. They may have been holding all their property titled in trust name, and there may be no property which is distributed thru their wills thru probate court. Personally making no predictions just raising possibilities.

Another point about Hackman’s estate -again generically speaking re an actor, a painter, an author of books – there may be royalties or other residual income from his work, which may be generated for years. Making it more likely imo that Hackman established a trust -or multiple trusts - possibly w Arakawa. I got the impression that the ownership or partial ownership in businesses (like hers w a SF retail store & his in SF restaurant) had been sold, but ICBW.
Let
Estate planning attorneys who draft trust documents tailor them to the client’s wishes, w one common concern being to maintain privacy re financial matters by avoiding probate court altogether. Identity of the beneficiaries of a trust & $ amts. of transfers are not often made public.

There may be bequests to friends, charities & other org’s, & relatives by blood or marriage.
I doubt that we can accurately predict the distribution of estates of either Mr. H. or Ms A.

If anyone, esp’ly a legal professional here, has differing opinions, I welcome other interp’s.

________________________________
* Uniform Simultaneous Death Act - Wikipedia
** New Mexico Statutes Chapter 45. Uniform Probate Code § 45-2-702
*** Info on file w the SF County Assessor's office indicates that title to 1425 Old Sunset Trail is held by a trust presumably established by Mr. H. and/or Ms A. Based on the existence of that trust, either individually or as a couple, imo likely that they received estate planning advice from attorneys knowledgeable in the field. Another thought: When they married, they were ‘not kids starting from scratch,’ so they may also have executed a premarital agreement, as part of estate plans.
 
  • #589
Releasing when Betsy's las communication was does not take away any of their dignity in death. Released whether her husband soiled himself does.

It may not take away dignity but publication of private communication for no valid reason is an invasion of privacy between two parties. If the people Betsy was communicating with choose to ‘tell all’ to the media i guess that’s up to them but their risk is loss of clients since most people want their business to remain private. JMO
 
  • #590
Wills. Estates. Pt 2.
Establishing who died first may well be important depending on their wills. It's usually accepted that where there is doubt, the elder person died first, but in this case it seems unlikely.
@Cherwell
I'm aware of a statute in England re presumed order of death, but statute in NM dictates a different result.
 
  • #591
I apologize if this was already suggested, but I wonder if in the time he was alone in the home, he did come upon her and thought she was just cold and put the space heater on. If she was very ill with a fever, I doubt she would have needed it.
Or turned it off.

If the space heater was on blast, perhaps that led to mummification.

Such a sad, tragic series of unexpected events.

JMO
 
  • #592
Wills. Estates. Pt 2.

@Cherwell
I'm aware of a statute in England re presumed order of death, but statute in NM dictates a different result.
Some people write into their wills that if order of death can not be established that it is assumed that such and such predeceased the other.
 
  • #593
Order of Deaths.

Usually, one person has to outlive the other by 30 days.
Not applicable here, should be considered to have died together.

@JDG
From my read of NM statute (see my post a few upthread), I don't believe 30 days is a req'mt in NM.
By chance do you have a NM-specific source re "usually?"

I'm not commenting on other point.
 
  • #594
Order of Deaths.
Apparently not true in NM. Spouse who outlives the other by 120 hours in the heir. 5 days! The timeline would have to be as clear as possible, since a lot could be at stake.
@MrsEmmaPeel

Agree re NM statute & surviving 120 hr.

But not sure how much is at stake.
Imo there may be little or even no property of GH or BA passing thru probate court.
Seems likely imo that most or all of the property will be distributed per terms of specific trust(s) specific agreement(s).

See my post a few upthread.
ICBW.
 
  • #595
Order of Deaths.



@JDG
From my read of NM statute (see my post a few upthread), I don't believe 30 days is a req'mt in NM.
By chance do you have a NM-specific source re "usually?"

I'm not commenting on other point.

This is not a NM statute. Survival clauses are commonly contained in the Wills of a married couple forming a directive. If they were involved in a car accident or plane crash it often becomes impossible to determine who died first so together they specify directions for their respective estate if they die simultaneously.
 
  • #596
Wills. Estates. Pt 2.

@Cherwell
I'm aware of a statute in England re presumed order of death, but statute in NM dictates a different result.
Yes, I realised that might be the case, and I asked about it in a post earlier on.
 
  • #597
I've posted way too much on this and must let go -- but I think it grabs me over and over because of the irony. More than anything Betsy and Gene wanted privacy, and by pursuing this to an extreme, they've ended up in the very thing they dreaded. Media hoopla. If Betsy had allowed a caregiver into their lives, one or both of them would have passed quietly with no media frenzy. I hope their deaths serve a purpose in alerting people to hantavirus, caregiver obsession with no backup, the dangers of isolation, directives for our pets, and the importance of community and friendship, especially as we age . . .etc.
 
  • #598
Wouldn't surprise me if the entire estate of GH and BA is to go to the on going care of their dogs.

JMO
He said in one article that one of his biggest goals in life was to take care of his family.
 
  • #599
I'm gifting this article, published this morning in the NYT, in case it hasn't already been posted.
A Haunting Coda

Thank you. I meant to post this earlier because it cleared up a lot of the other rumors/they didn't listen to to press conference.
Its written with respect and not just the horror of the situation (ahem British headlines)
A pity they went with the "she died a week before him" assumption instead of listening to what the Sheriff and the doctor actually said.
They may not have proof of life after 11 Feb, but the course of the illness was clearly explained and there is no way Betsy would have been able to drive and go shopping if she was in the last, fatal, stage of hantovirus.
 
  • #600
I'm gifting this article, published this morning in the NYT, in case it hasn't already been posted.

A Haunting Coda

Like so many others, I have an overwhelming need to believe their suffering was minimal, if there had to be any at all.

Like so many others, I think also about the dog. Life is too cruel by half, sometimes.
I agree. I just kept having images of Gene wandering around the house, seeing his wife on the floor and that little doggo in the crate, jumping up first wagging its tail wanting out of the cage and Gene not understanding what was going on. Doing that several times until that poor little dog died. The thing that got me was Gene had his sunglasses on. I wasn't sure if at some point he had moments of clarity and during that time, tried to go out for help and then the veil of dementia once again fell and he was left wondering where he was. So incredibly sad. Sometimes I feel guilty when it's seems I care more for the animal's suffering which isn't really true. Maybe because their survival depends so much on humans like those poor dogs left in a house when its owners moved.
 
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