GUILTY IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #191

[ClearAhead]

MOO

Actually, it's off to a bad start with it's lead (thanks to MS); how does this media source its information?
A whole bunch of this article comes from MS; who else?

Does anyone have any verifiable info about RA snubbing a plea deal?

TRIAL TWIST Delphi ‘killer’ Richard Allen snubbing plea deal to ‘avoid disappointing family’ despite confessing to murders 61 times

Verifying Device

Did you notice any reports in the media that contradict MS’s conclusions?

 

[ClearAhead]

Thanks for the info.

I didn't know how The Sun (and others) got their US info.
I wonder how much money can be made in selling a story to them.

If the 3- day hearing had been favorable to the defense, would you have expected news reports to be silent and non-transparent? So it happens but it was anything but, even the testimony of defence witnesses was lacking in favor of the D.

How much money did the D collect from the public, what did they do to deserve that? MS gave up 3 days of their life to sit through the hearings, as did various media reporters who get paid by the company they work for.

MOO

 

[Salah11]

Maybe that's because some "facts" aren't really facts.

Blood spatter experts, for instance. Just because one expert arrives at an opinion does not make it a fact.

Study Reports Error Rates for Bloodstain Pattern Analysis

Bloodstains are commonly encountered at scenes of violent crime. Forensic practitioners known as bloodstain pattern analysts seek to answer questions about the manner and sequence of events of a crime by examining the bloodstains left behind. Their methods are largely based on subjective expert...

nij.ojp.gov

Bullet mark expert opinions aren't fact, either.
What other opinions do we take as fact?

Well it’s a fact he is the only man accused of killing these precious girls.

 

[TTF14]

If the 3- day hearing had been favorable to the defense, would you have expected news reports to be silent and non-transparent? So it happens but it was anything but, even the testimony of defence witnesses was lacking in favor of the D.

How much money did the D collect from the public, what did they do to deserve that? MS gave up 3 days of their life to sit through the hearings, as did various media reporters who get paid by the company they work for.

MOO

I don't think the hearings were unfavorable to the defense. I expect Judge Gull to rule the defense team can bring in their SODDI defense. I'm not sure what the legal basis would be for her not allowing it. Even one of the victim's own grandmother's mind "almost immediately" went in that direction. It was never a theory pulled out of left field, IMO.

I expect she will also allow most, if not all, of the "confessions" in.

ETA: Alternatively, I could also see her not allowing either in - the SODDI stuff and any of the "confessions" and make them prove their case based solely on the timeline, witness statements, and the quasi-science of bullet markings. But I base that opinion/theory on what I think she may want to do, not on whether or not it would be within the confines of the law.


IMO MOO

 

[TTF14]

Well it’s a fact he is the only man accused of killing these precious girls.

So far.

 

[photographer4]

It’s as if the 3-day hearings didn’t happen. And anybody who reported on them can’t be trusted.

Imagine if JG had opted in favour of total transparency and had allowed cameras into the courtroom?? But of course, she didn’t. And for whatever (unknown) reason, she also didn’t allow electronic recordings to be created. So instead of having the option to decide for ourselves what we think of witness testimony etc, or whether or not RA “glared at” someone in the courtroom etc… we’re left waiting for those who were able to attend and sit in the very limited seating to report on what they saw / heard / felt. We’re left waiting on official transcripts.

<modsnip>

 

[TTF14]

Could anyone point me to where I can find where it was said that the trip to Georgia was fruitless and the defense attorneys returned empty handed? I've seen it stated that's what happened, but haven't seen/heard that with my own eyes.

 

[MiniMoo]

Imagine if JG had opted in favour of total transparency and had allowed cameras into the courtroom?? But of course, she didn’t. And for whatever (unknown) reason, she also didn’t allow electronic recordings to be created. So instead of having the option to decide for ourselves what we think of witness testimony etc, or whether or not RA “glared at” someone in the courtroom etc… we’re left waiting for those who were able to attend and sit in the very limited seating to report on what they saw / heard / felt. We’re left waiting on official transcripts.

<modsnip>

Limited seating is right.

Approximately 39 seats are available after what is reserved for the families and who needs to be there.

39!!!

With no video cameras or anything permitted to record can you imagine what the trial transcripts are going to cost to have transcribed and that could be thousands of pages.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Do you know of a specific item in the franks that has been proven to be debunked, incorrect or false ?

Yes.
There was no Fehu written in blood.

There was never a threat to "kill RAs family"

Those are the first things that came to mind.

I am sure that there are more, many more.

 

[TTF14]

Yes.
There was no Fehu written in blood.

There was never a threat to "kill RAs family"

Those are the first things that came to mind.

I am sure that there are more, many more.

To be fair, it was just an opinion about the "F" on the tree. An option the jury will be able to consider (unless both sides stipulate to it before the trial I guess). One of the experts who conducted his own blood spatter experiment, oddly, didn't even video record it. And, also to be fair, the defense only presented the threats to RA's family as a hypothetical in the Franks. They never claimed it happened. I'm not sure hypoetheticals can even be debunked.

IMO MOO

 

[grannygates]

Yes.
There was no Fehu written in blood.

There was never a threat to "kill RAs family"

Those are the first things that came to mind.

I am sure that there are more, many more.

The prosecution and their hired experts are obviously not going to agree to anything in the franks or any part of the defenses case because it goes against their theory. The prosecution just saying it or hiring an expert is not debunking. (Or else pings, geofencing and cell phone data are completely useless tools)

The blood spatter expert was hired a few months ago to look at photos. He also provided no videotape proof of his nonsensical experiment, which is odd when you’re “proving” something occurred one way and not another, but honestly expected in this case.

I want to know where the original report or the original investigators are ? Why did they have to hire a brand new person to look at photographs a couple months ago? Did they not have anyone look at the crime scene before a few months ago? Surely reports existed at one time, where are they?

MOO

 

[Ravenmoon]

To be fair, it was just an opinion about the "F" on the tree. An option the jury will be able to consider (unless both sides stipulate to it before the trial I guess). One of the experts who conducted his own blood spatter experiment, oddly, didn't even video record it. And, also to be fair, the defense only presented the threats to RA's family as a hypothetical in the Franks. They never claimed it happened. I'm not sure hypoetheticals can even be debunked.

IMO MOO

The entire case that the D is trying to build is that "Odinists did it".

One of the big reveals was the Fehu painted in Libby's blood.

It isn't and wasn't true.

The girls were murdered where they were found. They were not transported and returned, nor were they murdered elsewhere.

The Franks is mostly a work of fiction.
It's dishonest and misleading.


JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Maybe that's because some "facts" aren't really facts.

Blood spatter experts, for instance. Just because one expert arrives at an opinion does not make it a fact.

Study Reports Error Rates for Bloodstain Pattern Analysis

Bloodstains are commonly encountered at scenes of violent crime. Forensic practitioners known as bloodstain pattern analysts seek to answer questions about the manner and sequence of events of a crime by examining the bloodstains left behind. Their methods are largely based on subjective expert...

nij.ojp.gov

Bullet mark expert opinions aren't fact, either.
What other opinions do we take as fact?

RA admitting he was on the bridge right before Abby and Libby got to the bridge is a fact.

Some people on here have been taking the FM as fact for months, even citing it as a source. It’s been exposed as a complete fantasy, and admitted as such by the defense’s auxiliary attorneys, but some people won’t even listen to the actual texts proving it.

Another fact is that all expert testimony, prosecution and defense, at a trial ultimately comes down to opinion. The credentials of those experts matters.
Cicero’s credentials blow the defense’s self appointed expert’s out of the known universe. That matters. You may not like what he said but it matters…a lot.

And, RA is still on that bridge.


Edit: typo

 

[Ravenmoon]

The prosecution and their hired experts are obviously not going to agree to anything in the franks or any part of the defenses case because it goes against their theory. The prosecution just saying it or hiring an expert is not debunking. (Or else pings, geofencing and cell phone data are completely useless tools)

The blood spatter expert was hired a few months ago to look at photos. He also provided no videotape proof of his nonsensical experiment, which is odd when you’re “proving” something occurred one way and not another, but honestly expected in this case.

I want to know where the original report or the original investigators are ? Why did they have to hire a brand new person to look at photographs a couple months ago? Did they not have anyone look at the crime scene before a few months ago? Surely reports existed at one time, where are they?

MOO

So, even a blood splatter expert and his educated findings are not reliable?
That surprises me in all honesty.

Do you honestly believe that someone used LG'S blood to paint the tree and didn't leave any of their own DNA in that mark?

Would it be fair to say that anything that is brought in by the Prosecutor is untrue, in your opinion?


JMO

 

[Salah11]

So, even a blood splatter expert and his educated findings are not reliable?
That surprises me in all honesty.

Do you honestly believe that someone used LG'S blood to paint the tree and didn't leave any of their own DNA in that mark?

Would it be fair to say that anything that is brought in by the Prosecutor is untrue, in your opinion?


JMO

Don’t you know that everybody is out to frame poor old Rick from the local CVS

He is just so noble going along with it as well. If he was British I would nominate him for a Pride of Britain award.

IMO MOO

 

[TTF14]

Do you honestly believe that someone used LG'S blood to paint the tree and didn't leave any of their own DNA in that mark?

Wouldn't it be possible to paint it on with blood and leave no DNA if you used anything other than a finger as a "paintbrush?"

 

[Cyber sleuth]

<modsnip> There’s no mention about matching the animal hairs in RAs SW. I don’t think we see anything about searching for matching animal hair in court docs after RLs SW, do we ?

RL’s SWA does mention unidentified fibers and hairs found during the processing of the crime scene ( section 8)
LOGAN WARRANT final_Redacted.pdf

Hairs/fibers at the crime scene that can be matched to hairs/fibers at RA’s residence or car would be damning evidence.
They also state in this SWA that the video captured by LG shows the man approaching the girls from behind, speaking to the girls and directing them down the hill. So the narrative here has not changed.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Wouldn't it be possible to paint it on with blood and leave no DNA if you used anything other than a finger as a "paintbrush?"

In my opinion, no.
Cicero is an expert.
I trust that the print was made by Libby. Libby was a powerhouse. She made that print while standing, while struggling to live, after clutching her wounded neck to stop the bleeding according to Cicero.


IMO,.this crime was not in any way ritualistic. This crime was a sexually motivated murder carried out by a disturbed, obsessed man that hid in plain sight for years.

 

[grannygates]

So, even a blood splatter expert and his educated findings are not reliable?
That surprises me in all honesty.

Do you honestly believe that someone used LG'S blood to paint the tree and didn't leave any of their own DNA in that mark?

Would it be fair to say that anything that is brought in by the Prosecutor is untrue, in your opinion?


JMO

I expect experts on either side to show the court proof of their experiments. If the state says handprint, prove it’s a handprint. Defense says it was painted, show it can be painted. We’re long past “trust me, bro” as a source in this case. I expect everyone to have actual proof.

IMO A paintbrush could be used and also leave some type of hair in the bark that LE would find and then search for in search warrants.

IMO This expert was hired specifically to try to disprove the defense theory. He also said the sticks were used to hide the bodies but then admitted they only covered 3% of the bodies and it would have taken seconds to cover the bodies with all the leaves.

Expert opinions are not all or nothing. I found a lot of his testimony to make sense. There were a few offers that didn’t connect with me. We can take and leave parts of expert opinions if we believe some parts and not others.

MOO

 

[grannygates]

RL’s SWA does mention unidentified fibers and hairs found during the processing of the crime scene ( section 8)
LOGAN WARRANT final_Redacted.pdf

Hairs/fibers at the crime scene that can be matched to hairs/fibers at RA’s residence or car would be damning evidence.
They also state in this SWA that the video captured by LG shows the man approaching the girls from behind, speaking to the girls and directing them down the hill. So the narrative here has not changed.

The OP was about Nancy Grace stating on her show that they were trying to match cat hairs and how that info has never come from LE.