NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest* #2

[caradana]

The Queens man, whose name started to circulate on Twitter overnight, served as an infantry squad leader and an instructor in water survival while in the Marines Corps from 2017 to 2021, according to his online resume. Penny graduated from high school in West Islip, NY.

Marine who put Jordan Neely in chokehold on NYC subway identified as Daniel Penny

The Marine who put Jordan Neely in a chokehold on an NYC subway has been identified.

nypost.com

https://www.marines.mil/Portals/1/Publications/MCO%201500.52D.pdf

So I'm pondering why he didn't commence first aid upon realising that Neely was out, after he'd retrieved his hat, that is, priorities.
whereas the assistant allegedly checking pulse and fending off concerned bystanders with pat answers may not be trained in very much at all by the way he conducted himself, Penny certainly had the necessary training.

He must have realised that Neely was quite dead.
It's not rocket science.

SOI-E Units

He did nothing.

I'm pretty sure the DA will be looking at that and I'm wondering whether additional charged will be applied?

nope

 

[Sundog]

He is a key eyewitness. His comments and their validity will be examined in the trial.

Just jumping off your post, not directed at you, but does anyone have the link that was posted earlier on this forum that has the interview with the person who made the video?

 

[JennieM]

Just jumping off your post, not directed at you, but does anyone have the link that was posted earlier on this forum that has the interview with the person who made the video?

What we know about the chokehold death of Jordan Neely on a NYC subway

Neely, 30, died after he was held in a chokehold for about 15 minutes in an altercation on a subway train, according to a witness. His death was ruled a homicide.

www.nbcnews.com

Man Who Threatened NYC Subway Riders Dies After One Put Him in Chokehold: Sources

A 30-year-old man died aboard a Manhattan subway train Monday following an altercation that began with him threatening other passengers, according to investigators, and ended with him being put into a chokehold.

www.nbcnewyork.com

‘I Wasn’t Thinking That Anybody Was Going to Die.’

Speaking with Juan Alberto Vasquez, the passenger who recorded the video of Jordan Neely on the F train

www.curbed.com

 

[elevatorific]

I think the first 911 call was made because JN was acting totally crazy. I also think JN threatened to have a weapon and that's why everyone was so afraid.

If you were in a crowded space and someone came in acting crazy and threatening everyone, wouldn't you try to call 911? I sure would.

JMO

<modsnip> This was the first 911 call:

2:25 p.m. - The train operator on that F train called into the MTA’s Rail Control Center to report that there was an unruly passenger being subdued by other passengers. NYPD assistance was requested. This report included an uncorroborated detail that Neely was armed. Neely was not armed.

Neely was already being held by Penny when the first call came in.

<modsnip>

 

[caradana]

The good news: the question of the length of the chokehold, be it 5 minutes, 6 minutes, 15 minutes, will be solved and shown to the fraction of a second with multiple data inputs at trial. I mean, we can debate, or we can wait and regard facts as our friends. Personally I’m going to let that one roll and let data science and video data solve it for me.
More good news: the praying elderly lady is going to testify and I promise us all, it’s gonna be from her lips to God’s ears. If there was ever a lady trusted by a jury, here she is. Might I remind us all what she has already said to the media? It is telling.
Neutral news: a few here talking about Penny doing himself no favors with the media. Maybe so, audience dependent. I’m going to go on the record here making a prediction. Penny speaks at a convention. Let’s all watch and see.
MOO: <modsnip - inappropriate> even if Penny is viewed by some as guilty of manslaughter - and I see smart people here whom I respect arguing he is, and while I don’t agree I understand their thinking - this is going to be a referendum on mental health and personal responsibility and community defense and individualism. A very American set of judgments. See the world through that angle, which is a very middle-aged moderate American judge’s angle, and you’ll see what is likely to happen with this case.

 

[PapillonVert]

The only reference I’ve found about the EMTs being called nine minutes after LE arrived is in Wikipedia with no reference footnote. I can’t find anything in MSM about this time lapse. Do you have a link?

Killing of Jordan Neely - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The New York Police Department received a call about a fight on the train at 2:27 p.m., and arrived before 2:30 p.m., administering first aid to an unconscious Neely.[2][35][36] The New York City Fire Department received its call for help at 2:39 p.m., arriving at 2:46 p.m.. At least five 9-1-1 calls were made,

From the New York Times-
“The police have not responded to messages asking what time they arrived at the scene. The Fire Department said it received a call for help at 2:39 p.m. and arrived at 2:46.”

What We Know About Jordan Neely’s Killing

On May 1, a 24-year-old man named Daniel Penny choked Jordan Neely, 30, to death on a New York City subway train. Mr. Penny has not been charged.

web.archive.org

From CNN:
“When police arrived at the subway station in Lower Manhattan before 2:30 p.m. Monday, they administered first aid to an unconscious Neely. He was pronounced dead later.”

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/05/us/jordan-neely-subway-death-what-we-know/index.html

So it sounds like police arrived on scene at or before 2:30 and the fire department was called at 2:39.

 

[Sundog]

‘I Wasn’t Thinking That Anybody Was Going to Die.’

Speaking with Juan Alberto Vasquez, the passenger who recorded the video of Jordan Neely on the F train

www.curbed.com

Thanks, this is the interview I was looking for. This will be interesting at trial and how it could actually help the defense.

Vasquez said: To me, when Jordan throws his jacket, it is a way of saying: “There could be an act of violence here,” because those things do happen all the time, because just a year ago, there was a guy who went in and shot a lot of people on the train.

The full interview he gives is worth reading, IMO, in terms of his testimony, what he saw and didn't see, etc.

 

[JennieM]

Thanks, this is the interview I was looking for. This will be interesting at trial and how it could actually help the defense.

Vasquez said: To me, when Jordan throws his jacket, it is a way of saying: “There could be an act of violence here,” because those things do happen all the time, because just a year ago, there was a guy who went in and shot a lot of people on the train.

The full interview he gives is worth reading, IMO, in terms of his testimony, what he saw and didn't see, etc.

He also says:

It’s at that moment that this man came up behind him and grabbed him by the neck, and I think — I didn’t see, but I think — that move of grabbing him by the neck also led him to grab Neely by the legs with his own. They both fell. And then in like 30 seconds, I don’t know, we got to Broadway-Lafayette, and they were just there on the floor. You ask how many people out of 100 would have dared to do something like that, and I think that 98 will say: “No, I would wait to see one more sign that indicates aggression.”

 

[caradana]

Thanks, this is the interview I was looking for. This will be interesting at trial and how it could actually help the defense.

Vasquez said: To me, when Jordan throws his jacket, it is a way of saying: “There could be an act of violence here,” because those things do happen all the time, because just a year ago, there was a guy who went in and shot a lot of people on the train.

The full interview he gives is worth reading, IMO, in terms of his testimony, what he saw and didn't see, etc.

Agree, but I don’t think it will even come to this. This will have to settle before trial for a minor charge. The prosecution is set up to get just demolished here. The DA has to charge, it’s political theater in MOO.

 

[Sundog]

He also says:

It’s at that moment that this man came up behind him and grabbed him by the neck, and I think — I didn’t see, but I think — that move of grabbing him by the neck also led him to grab Neely by the legs with his own. They both fell. And then in like 30 seconds, I don’t know, we got to Broadway-Lafayette, and they were just there on the floor. You ask how many people out of 100 would have dared to do something like that, and I think that 98 will say: “No, I would wait to see one more sign that indicates aggression.”

I'm picturing him testifying in court under cross-examination -

". . . I didn't see, but I think . . .

" . . . And then in like 30 seconds, I don't know . . ."

And then he gives an opinion as if he knows how a survey of 100 people will respond (which sounds like he has been listening to social media and formed an opinion between the time of the incident and the time of this interview) "You ask how many people out of 100 would have dared to do something like that, and I think 98 will say . . .

Mostly, I think he will be a good witness for the defense regarding what he witnessed, not what he didn't witness, and not what his opinion is.

 

[JennieM]

I'm picturing him testifying in court under cross-examination -

". . . I didn't see, but I think . . .

" . . . And then in like 30 seconds, I don't know . . ."

And then he gives an opinion as if he knows how a survey of 100 people will respond (which sounds like he has been listening to social media and formed an opinion between the time of the incident and the time of this interview) "You ask how many people out of 100 would have dared to do something like that, and I think 98 will say . . .

Mostly, I think he will be a good witness for the defense regarding what he witnessed, not what he didn't witness, and not what his opinion is.

He won't be the only eyewitness I am sure. Let's see what they all have to say.

 

[PapillonVert]

He also says:

It’s at that moment that this man came up behind him and grabbed him by the neck, and I think — I didn’t see, but I think — that move of grabbing him by the neck also led him to grab Neely by the legs with his own. They both fell. And then in like 30 seconds, I don’t know, we got to Broadway-Lafayette, and they were just there on the floor. You ask how many people out of 100 would have dared to do something like that, and I think that 98 will say: “No, I would wait to see one more sign that indicates aggression.”

The article Sundog referenced from Curbed.com makes me question what Vasquez actually observed. In that article, he mentioned hearing the jacket being thrown to the ground, not that he saw it. There was another NYT article (link below), where he mentioned that he didn’t actually see Penny come from behind and do the chokehold, he heard a thud on the ground and when he looked, he saw they were on the ground. I question what he saw versus what he heard, and whether he witnessed the full event including what may have precipitated Penny to take action.

It’s possible that there are things others witnessed that Vazquez did not, such as nonverbal cues made by Neely, etc. I think this is why I’m hesitant to accept his statement as the absolute truth. I’d like to see what evidence is presented at trial.

From NYT article: (BBM)
“It is unclear if Mr. Penny said anything to Mr. Neely at that point. Mr. Vazquez said he did not see him grab Mr. Neely, but that he heard a thump and then saw both men on the floor. The train stopped at Broadway-Lafayette, where it remained standing while Mr. Neely was pinned down, as two other men grabbed his arms and legs.”

What We Know About Jordan Neely’s Killing

On May 1, a 24-year-old man named Daniel Penny choked Jordan Neely, 30, to death on a New York City subway train. Mr. Penny has not been charged.

web.archive.org

*Edited to add link to NYT article

 

[Sundog]

The article Sundog referenced from Curbed.com makes me question what Vasquez actually observed. In that article, he mentioned hearing the jacket being thrown to the ground, not that he saw it. There was another NYT article (link below), where he mentioned that he didn’t actually see Penny come from behind and do the chokehold, he heard a thud on the ground and when he looked, he saw they were on the ground. I question what he saw versus what he heard, and whether he witnessed the full event including what may have precipitated Penny to take action.

It’s possible that there are things others witnessed that Vazquez did not, such as nonverbal cues made by Neely, etc. I think this is why I’m hesitant to accept his statement as the absolute truth. I’d like to see what evidence is presented at trial.

From NYT article: (BBM)
“It is unclear if Mr. Penny said anything to Mr. Neely at that point. Mr. Vazquez said he did not see him grab Mr. Neely, but that he heard a thump and then saw both men on the floor. The train stopped at Broadway-Lafayette, where it remained standing while Mr. Neely was pinned down, as two other men grabbed his arms and legs.”

What We Know About Jordan Neely’s Killing

On May 1, a 24-year-old man named Daniel Penny choked Jordan Neely, 30, to death on a New York City subway train. Mr. Penny has not been charged.

web.archive.org

*Edited to add link to NYT article

Vasquez will have to explain those discrepancies upon cross-examination.

 

[Lilibet]

From the New York Times-
“The police have not responded to messages asking what time they arrived at the scene. The Fire Department said it received a call for help at 2:39 p.m. and arrived at 2:46.”

What We Know About Jordan Neely’s Killing

On May 1, a 24-year-old man named Daniel Penny choked Jordan Neely, 30, to death on a New York City subway train. Mr. Penny has not been charged.

web.archive.org

From CNN:
“When police arrived at the subway station in Lower Manhattan before 2:30 p.m. Monday, they administered first aid to an unconscious Neely. He was pronounced dead later.”

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/05/us/jordan-neely-subway-death-what-we-know/index.html

So it sounds like police arrived on scene at or before 2:30 and the fire department was called at 2:39.

Thank you! Usually Google is my friend, but it ghosted me on this subject. And not having access to the NYT didn’t help.

 

[10ofRods]

The report of 15 minutes came from an eyewitness.

NBC News
May 5, 2023, 10:01 PM BST
By Marlene Lenthang

"The situation escalated and he was held in a chokehold for about 15 minutes by a 24-year-old subway rider, according to an eyewitness."

What we know about the chokehold death of Jordan Neely on a NYC subway

Neely, 30, died after he was held in a chokehold for about 15 minutes in an altercation on a subway train, according to a witness. His death was ruled a homicide.

www.nbcnews.com

Eyewitness who is an unnamed source. Most riders had departed the car before LE arrived. This eyewitness had to have been there throughout. Neely got on just one stop before, IIRC. 3 minute ride? I think someone here said that.

Car stops, chokehold went on for 12-14 more minutes,according to this eyewitness. Vazquez says the hold began just 3 seconds before the stop. Both witnesses are estimating, obviously.

That’s assuming Penny tackled him immediately after the doors closed, which sounds off.

IMO. Please correct this version with later info, if you have some.

 

[Lilibet]

Eyewitness who is an unnamed source. Most riders had departed the car before LE arrived. This eyewitness had to have been there throughout. Neely got on just one stop before, IIRC. 3 minute ride? I think someone here said that.

Car stops, chokehold went on for 12 more minutes,according to this eyewitness. That’s assuming Penny tackled him immediately after the doors closed, which sounds off.

IMO. Please correct this version with later info, if you have some.

I really don’t think it was a 15 minute chokehold. But it didn’t need to be in order to kill Mr Neely.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

<modsnip> This was the first 911 call:

2:25 p.m. - The train operator on that F train called into the MTA’s Rail Control Center to report that there was an unruly passenger being subdued by other passengers. NYPD assistance was requested. This report included an uncorroborated detail that Neely was armed. Neely was not armed.

Neely was already being held by Penny when the first call came in.

<modsnip>

Where did the (uncorroborated) info come from about JN being armed? Would it have been from the caller to 911?

 

[Lilibet]

Where did the (uncorroborated) info come from about JN being armed? Would it have been from the caller to 911?

It appears that this was part of the info relayed by the train operators to the MTA requesting NYPD assistance, so not an individual caller to 911. Perhaps there was a passenger who thought Mr Neely *might* be armed and it got passed along to the train operator as him actually being armed. Things get mixed up during chaos.

JMO

 

[kittythehare]

My brother said when he was trained, strangle holds were taught as a form of defense against an attack. Learning how to protect yourself in a combat situation turning defence into attack either with or without weapons.

Bear in mind, this is how he was taught, US may vary in their training.

Yeah.
But Penny took him from behind and he was unarmed.
It was not self defence, Penny was not being attacked.

 

[Lilibet]

I’m going to go on the record here making a prediction. Penny speaks at a convention. Let’s all watch and see.

I’m sure you’re right that Penny will speak at a convention if he is acquitted, which I figure he will be, the way things are going. As Bob Dylan sang in “Subterranean Homesick Blues”…”You don’t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.” Vigilante wannabe (IMO) Kyle Rittenhouse has been a very popular convention speaker, so Penny will be in demand too, if the wind doesn’t change direction.

JMO

Kyle Rittenhouse Gets Standing Ovation at Conservative Conference

A month after his acquittal on murder charges, Kyle Rittenhouse was given a standing ovation at a conservative group’s conference in Phoenix where panelists discussed the 2020 deadly shootings in Kenosha, Wisconsin.

www.nbcchicago.com

Montgomery County-owned venue will host Kyle Rittenhouse rally against censorship

The venue change comes days after a Conroe-based brewery faced threats and harassment for pulling out of the event.

www.texastribune.org