NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest* #2

[elevatorific]

I don’t think anyone is thinking that ‘homeless = bad.’ Maybe ‘violent attacker of elderly people = bad.’

How about just violent attacks are bad? No matter how imperfect the victim may be.

 

[MyBelle]

I don’t think anyone is thinking that ‘homeless = bad.’ Maybe ‘violent attacker of elderly people = bad.’

I agree. Penny had no way to know JN was homeless. And JN had a history of attacking elderly women which shows his predatory nature.

JMO

 

[elevatorific]

I agree. Penny had no way to know JN was homeless. And JN had a history of attacking elderly women which shows his predatory nature.

JMO

I didn't say that.
I'm talking about assumptions in public perception, not assumptions by Penny on the train.

 

[Laughing]

No matter how telegenic a suspect is, as long as the facts of the case warrant a charge, it would be a slippery slope to not charge someone just because a morally bankrupt jury might acquit him. JMO.

I didn't say that.
I'm talking about assumptions in public perception, not assumptions by Penny on the train.

Might the value-laden phrase "morally bankrupt" be an assumption in public perception?

 

[elevatorific]

Might the value-laden phrase "morally bankrupt" be an assumption in public perception?

If a jury acquits someone ONLY because the victim was homeless, Jewish, black, Asian, rich, gay, Republican, bald, or anything else and they have certain assumptions about that group... I stand by that being a morally bankrupt decision 100%.

If a prosecutor declines to press charges only because they are afraid that prevailing negative public perceptions about the group the victim belonged to will make an acquittal more likely.... I stand by that being a slippery slope 100%.

jmo

 

[kittythehare]

beg to differ....

why, Laughing?
Like it seems straight cut, he didn't let choke hold go after he had immobilised Neely who he perceived to be a threat.
That's recklessness.
He had a million ways to immobilise Neely without using an illegal choke hold to begin with.
Neely was the vulnerable person in this exchange.
Neely is now dead.
He doesn't need to be.

What can possibly be making people so sure he will be acquitted?

I genuinely do not see it.

Neely was unarmed.

 

[kittythehare]

If a jury acquits someone ONLY because the victim was homeless, Jewish, black, Asian, rich, gay, Republican, bald, or anything else and they have certain assumptions about that group... I stand by that being a morally bankrupt decision 100%.

If a prosecutor declines to press charges only because they are afraid that prevailing negative public perceptions about the group the victim belonged to will make an acquittal more likely.... I stand by that being slippery slope 100%.

jmo

I'm not up to speed on Bragg's reputation and it's difficult to find clear information because everything is either right or left, good or bad, one party or the other. Polarities everywhere.
They should have nothing to do with the case.

I'm from outa town here and it's almost impossible to figure out what people and media are talking about without submerging myself in politics and I'm doing a good job avoiding them here so I would welcome the opportunity to continue in blissful ignorance.

Victim friendly, to me, means having compassion and showing compassion.
Yeah, sure I feel enormous compassion for Neely.
Why would I not?
He had a terrible life.
He had a terrible death.
And a list of his sins does not change that.

Because he was not killed for his sin list.

 

[Sundog]

How about just violent attacks are bad? No matter how imperfect the victim may be.

I wonder if attacks against the elderly are classified as hate crimes in New York. They should be, IMO. They are some of the most vulnerable in our society.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I'm not up to speed on Bragg's reputation and it's difficult to find clear information because everything is either right or left, good or bad, one party or the other. Polarities everywhere.
They should have nothing to do with the case.

I couldn't agree more, but we all know it always does.

In any event, you mentioned (last thread, I think?) that you were hoping to see if Penny's ink showed up in any databases. I wasn't even aware there was a tattoo database but I'm curious to know what you came up with, if anything?

 

[Elliot_Alderson]

I agree. Penny had no way to know JN was homeless. And JN had a history of attacking elderly women which shows his predatory nature.

JMO

Are you implying Penny had no way to know JN was homeless but Penny somehow did know JN's criminal history?

 

[kittythehare]

I don’t think anyone is thinking that ‘homeless = bad.’ Maybe ‘violent attacker of elderly people = bad.’

Nobody on that train that day knew he had attacked a woman in 2021.
Throwing up his crime file after he has been killed is like making an excuse for what is in effect an extrajudicial execution.

The laws in NY state are clear.

DUTY TO NOTIFY.
not duty to kill all and sundry.
The laws are also clear about chokeholds- do not use them even if you can.
Marine training because we know he received that training also has very very clear rules on the administration of such a manoeuvre.

None of those laws are optional and they cannot be broken no matter how many elderly, choking at the word elderly because I don't consider myself elderly and I'm older than the woman in 2021, people he mugged.

It's very clear.
The law exists to protect society and if you or I don't feel they're doing such a hot job of it, it does not licence us to act as judge jury or executioner.

That is anarchy.
That is what happens when society breaks down irretrievably.

It's not our party and it's not our monkeys.

I don't even know why we're all arguing about it.
The old ladies were not there that day.
Neely's crime file was not tattooed on his forehead.
His mental illness was probably apparent.

His mental illness probably informed his crime file.

Where is the love, where is the compassion?

 

[kittythehare]

I couldn't agree more, but we all know it always does.

In any event, you mentioned (last thread, I think?) that you were hoping to see if Penny's ink showed up in any databases. I wasn't even aware there was a tattoo database but I'm curious to know what you came up with, if anything?

Zero.
I study white supremacy movements, accelerationism, neo nazi and jihadi groups.
They all have specific symbols, languages and lingos, and thingys so they recognise each other and many of these are documented.

I've spent hours on the subject but I'm not through yet.

It may well be a thing of nothing.

 

[MyBelle]

Are you implying Penny had no way to know JN was homeless but Penny somehow did know JN's criminal history?

No, I'm saying JN was acting in a violent, threatening manner.

At trial, the jury will know about JN's violent history.

JMO

 

[kittythehare]

I wonder if attacks against the elderly are classified as hate crimes in New York. They should be, IMO. They are some of the most vulnerable in our society.

Hate Learn About Hate Crimes The term "hate" can be misleading. When used in a hate crime law, the word "hate" does not mean rage, anger, or general dislike. In this context “hate” means bias against people or groups with specific characteristics that are defined by the law. At the federal level, hate crime laws include crimes committed on the basis of the victim’s perceived or actual race, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, or disability. Most state hate crime laws include crimes committed on the basis of race, color, and religion; many also include crimes committed on the basis of sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, and disability. Crime The "crime" in hate crime is often a violent crime, such as assault, murder, arson, vandalism, or threats to commit such crimes. It may also cover conspiring or asking another person to commit such crimes, even if the crime was never carried out.

Under the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, people cannot be prosecuted simply for their beliefs. People may be offended or upset about beliefs that are untrue or based upon false stereotypes, but it is not a crime to express offensive beliefs, or to join with others who share such views. However, the First Amendment does not protect against committing a crime, just because the conduct is rooted in philosophical beliefs.

 

[Sundog]

Hate Learn About Hate Crimes The term "hate" can be misleading. When used in a hate crime law, the word "hate" does not mean rage, anger, or general dislike. In this context “hate” means bias against people or groups with specific characteristics that are defined by the law. At the federal level, hate crime laws include crimes committed on the basis of the victim’s perceived or actual race, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, or disability. Most state hate crime laws include crimes committed on the basis of race, color, and religion; many also include crimes committed on the basis of sexual orientation, gender, gender identity, and disability. Crime The "crime" in hate crime is often a violent crime, such as assault, murder, arson, vandalism, or threats to commit such crimes. It may also cover conspiring or asking another person to commit such crimes, even if the crime was never carried out.

Under the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, people cannot be prosecuted simply for their beliefs. People may be offended or upset about beliefs that are untrue or based upon false stereotypes, but it is not a crime to express offensive beliefs, or to join with others who share such views. However, the First Amendment does not protect against committing a crime, just because the conduct is rooted in philosophical beliefs.

It's a pity that violently assaulting an elderly person, especially more than one time, is not a hate crime in the U.S. IMO, it should be.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Where is the love, where is the compassion?

If I knew nothing about Jordan Neely other than what happened on the train, I'd feel the same compassion I do now.
He freaked out, some guy restrained him and he died. That's sad. I've never said anything different.

The problem is, I now know that Jordan Neely was also a criminal with 40+ arrests under his belt, and some of them were for very violent things. Some of the exact same things that end up as threads here, where we all throw the criminal (rightfully) under the bus, for being a predatory, violent criminal.

So I'll be 100% honest and tell you, my compassion is heavily tempered with the reality that he was also a violent criminal.
I have a real hard time having compassion for people that punch old men and women in the face.
I can only guess that many others feel the same way, for the same reason.
Those are the consequences of Neely's choices that he made long before he ever got on that train.

jmo

 

[kittythehare]

If I knew nothing about Jordan Neely other than what happened on the train, I'd feel the same compassion I do now.
He freaked out, some guy restrained him and he died. That's sad. I've never said anything different.

The problem is, I now know that Jordan Neely was also a criminal with 40+ arrests under his belt, and some of them were for very violent things. Some of the exact same things that end up as threads here, where we all throw the criminal (rightfully) under the bus, for being a predatory, violent criminal.

So I'll be 100% honest and tell you, my compassion is heavily tempered with the reality that he was also a violent criminal.
I have a real hard time having compassion for people that punch old men and women in the face.
I can only guess that many others feel the same way, for the same reason.
Those are the consequences of Neely's choices that he made long before he ever got on that train.

jmo

Im not sure that schizophrenia is a choice.
It arises organically, like cancer.
The sufferer is not always aware of what they are doing or why.

It's not the same as malice.
There is no informed decision making.
He lashed out, she was there.
He probably did not know why he lashed out and we do not know what his perceptions of his victim were at the time he assaulted her.

It's not the same as somebody doing a lot of coke or meth, for recreational reasons and losing their minds as a result. In that there is an element of choice.
With severe mental illness there is none, sadly.

 

[Cryptic]

The sufferer is not always aware of what they are doing or why.

He apparently attacked elderly people on more than one occasion. Yet, he never "uncontrollably" attacked a large male or a police officer.

As a result, I am thinking he had some degree of control over his actions.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Nobody on that train that day knew he had attacked a woman in 2021.
Throwing up his crime file after he has been killed is like making an excuse for what is in effect an extrajudicial execution.

The laws in NY state are clear.

DUTY TO NOTIFY.
not duty to kill all and sundry.
The laws are also clear about chokeholds- do not use them even if you can.
Marine training because we know he received that training also has very very clear rules on the administration of such a manoeuvre.

None of those laws are optional and they cannot be broken no matter how many elderly, choking at the word elderly because I don't consider myself elderly and I'm older than the woman in 2021, people he mugged.

It's very clear.
The law exists to protect society and if you or I don't feel they're doing such a hot job of it, it does not licence us to act as judge jury or executioner.

That is anarchy.
That is what happens when society breaks down irretrievably.

It's not our party and it's not our monkeys.

I don't even know why we're all arguing about it.
The old ladies were not there that day.
Neely's crime file was not tattooed on his forehead.
His mental illness was probably apparent.

His mental illness probably informed his crime file.

Where is the love, where is the compassion?

Is it possible there's a witness that was present for both incident's? A regular train rider perhaps?

 

[Rolypolyoly]

He apparently attacked elderly people on more than one occasion. Yet, he never "uncontrollably" attacked a large male or a police officer.

As a result, I am thinking he had some degree of control over his actions.

I have seen reports that he also threatened to kill his Grandfather, take that as speculation until I find the link again, so I feel like there is some underlying trigger with regards to people of a certain age, not necessarily "elderly" as like Kitty mentioned, and I believe I also did in the previous thread, I dont consider 66/67 to be elderly these days.

There does appear to be a "type" for his directed violence, I agree.

Disclaimer- This is just an observation in reply to your post, it doesn't change my opinion on Penny's actions.