NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest* #2

[IceIce9]

<RSBM>

If you're looking for ways to demonize Daniel Penny regarding his Samson tattoo & use Christian Scripture to justify it, you're going to find exactly what you're looking for. It's pretty easy to take it out of context, actually. If you've ever studied Biblical theology, especially OT (Old Testament) theology, it's even easier.

You could really go a couple of different ways with this. One, like you did, and the other, which conjures up considerations of humility in the face of chaos and trusting in God even when things look or feel impossible, the way Samson trusted God to give him the strength and the ability to defend Israel against it's enemies.

On the other hand, if you don't know Penny, his life, his views on the Scriptures, or what that art from Charles Brock (the depiction of Samuel killing the lion with his bare hands) actually means to him, it's all 100% speculation and most probably inaccurate.

Truth is, Penny might not even be a Christian (I don't know if it's been mentioned at all), and he may know absolutely nothing about who Samson was and what his role was in fighting off the Philistines to defend Israel. He might have just seen the image (maybe some other guy in the service had one) and thought it looked pretty cool, and got the tattoo.

Unless DP himself comes along and tells us, we're never going to know.

jmo

I’m an X-ray tech and over the years I have seen more tattoos than I care to think about. Often when I had waited with a patient for a radiologist reading I had discussed the meaning of their tattoos. It was very interesting to learn what their tattoos meant to them. Very often they did not mean what I had thought was obvious.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Im not sure that schizophrenia is a choice.
It arises organically, like cancer.
The sufferer is not always aware of what they are doing or why.

It's not the same as malice.
There is no informed decision making.
He lashed out, she was there.
He probably did not know why he lashed out and we do not know what his perceptions of his victim were at the time he assaulted her.

It's not the same as somebody doing a lot of coke or meth, for recreational reasons and losing their minds as a result. In that there is an element of choice.
With severe mental illness there is none, sadly.

None of us have any idea if he committed these violent acts as a result of his mental illness, or if he did them because he was a violent guy and just felt like doing what he did, but also happened to have schizophrenia.

It'd sure be interesting to hear from his past victims and how they feel about him. And the parents of the 7 year old girl he attempted to kidnap. I wonder if they have love and compassion for him.

 

[kittythehare]

Is it possible there's a witness that was present for both incident's? A regular train rider perhaps?

Somebody that witnessed the 2021 attack being present on the train 2 years later?
Anything is possible but I reckon the odds would be low.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Somebody that witnessed the 2021 attack being present on the train 2 years later?
Anything is possible but I reckon the odds would be low.

I don't know what the odds are but I'm not ruling it out. JMO.

 

[IceIce9]

He apparently attacked elderly people on more than one occasion. Yet, he never "uncontrollably" attacked a large male or a police officer.

As a result, I am thinking he had some degree of control over his actions.

Has anyone wondered what JN might have done if Daniel Penney had failed to act?

Would JN have eventually attacked an elderly person? I realize there is no way to know but definitely worth thinking about.

MOO

 

[kittythehare]

None of us have any idea if he committed these violent acts as a result of his mental illness, or if he did them because he was a violent guy and just felt like doing what he did, but also happened to have schizophrenia.

It'd sure be interesting to hear from his past victims and how they feel about him. And the parents of the 7 year old girl he attempted to kidnap. I wonder if they have love and compassion for him.

Again, the Judge in the 2021 case gave him the option to enter therapy for a period and refrain from consuming street drugs and to continue his anti psychotic meds so I think it's probably a given or she wouldn't have mentioned it.

The case of the child is sealed and he served 4 months for it so I don't imagine it was a high level offence.
Anyway we do not have those details and they are not relevant to Penny's choke.

The case is about Penny choking him, is it not?
UNLESS Penny is a member of a known vigilante group who actually had access to this information and targeted him.
That changes things but there is nothing to suggest that is the case at the moment.

 

[MyBelle]

None of us have any idea if he committed these violent acts as a result of his mental illness, or if he did them because he was a violent guy and just felt like doing what he did, but also happened to have schizophrenia.

It'd sure be interesting to hear from his past victims and how they feel about him. And the parents of the 7 year old girl he attempted to kidnap. I wonder if they have love and compassion for him.

We also do not know if JN was under the influence of drugs.

JMO

 

[kittythehare]

Has anyone wondered what JN might have done if Daniel Penney had failed to act?

Would JN have eventually attacked an elderly person? I realize there is no way to know but definitely worth thinking about.

MOO

He might have attacked a young person.
Or he might have just kept riding the train day after day and attacked nobody at all, just annoyed them.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Has anyone wondered what JN might have done if Daniel Penney had failed to act?

Would JN have eventually attacked an elderly person? I realize there is no way to know but definitely worth thinking about.

MOO

Hi criminal history suggests it was a very good possibility.

jmo

 

[kittythehare]

He apparently attacked elderly people on more than one occasion. Yet, he never "uncontrollably" attacked a large male or a police officer.

As a result, I am thinking he had some degree of control over his actions.

He probably 'attacked' a lot of people.
I often got a box from a patient.
If you're asking whether Neely was guilty of ageism as well as schizophrenia addiction and God only knows what else, I don't know.
I'm not sure it's useful to retrospectively diagnose him or even blame him.
He is the victim, after all.

 

[Elliot_Alderson]

None of us have any idea if he committed these violent acts as a result of his mental illness, or if he did them because he was a violent guy and just felt like doing what he did, but also happened to have schizophrenia.

It'd sure be interesting to hear from his past victims and how they feel about him. And the parents of the 7 year old girl he attempted to kidnap. I wonder if they have love and compassion for him.

Someone can still have compassion for him needlessly losing his life and not endorse his criminal history. I can say maybe he should have been restrained, as apparently he was outnumbered, but that doesn't mean his life needed to be taken.

How come chokeholds are such an issue that we as a nation don't want LE performing them regardless of a suspect's criminal past, but it's acceptable for a vigilante citizen to use it to play judge, jury, and executioner?

 

[Ontario Mom]

Again, the Judge in the 2021 case gave him the option to enter therapy for a period and refrain from consuming street drugs and to continue his anti psychotic meds so I think it's probably a given or she wouldn't have mentioned it.

The case of the child is sealed and he served 4 months for it so I don't imagine it was a high level offence.
Anyway we do not have those details and they are not relevant to Penny's choke.

We (the public) do not have those details.
However, the facts of his previous violent criminal record have been published so, that cat is out of the bag.

We (the public) DO know of his past, violent criminal history, and that DOES affect people's opinions, whether anyone likes it or not.

jmo

 

[MyBelle]

Someone can still have compassion for him needlessly losing his life and not endorse his criminal history. I can say maybe he should have been restrained, as apparently he was outnumbered, but that doesn't mean his life needed to be taken.

How come chokeholds are such an issue that we as a nation don't want LE performing them regardless of a suspect's criminal past, but it's acceptable for a vigilante citizen to use it to play judge, jury, and executioner?

BBM. The charges reflect that Penny did not intentionally take JN's life.

JMO

 

[Rolypolyoly]

And you had no idea of the circumstances. The level of fear the passengers felt, the courage to step up to protect others, if threats were made etc, It was assumed it was Vigilantism and nothing else.

I had the initial reports, same as everyone else, and I food MY opinion, that being there were other options at Penny's disposal. Just like others, based on the same available information decided Penny was an all American hero. It's all about perspective.

I think you'll find though, that if you check all MY posts, you won't find a single one calling him a vigilante, or mentioning vigilanteism in a broader sense. You will however, find posts saying I can see both sides of the argument, and not totally condemning Penny's actions at all. I think the course of action he chose was the wrong one, that's not the same as accusing him of being a vigilante.

 

[Elliot_Alderson]

BBM. The charges reflect that Penny did not intentionally take JN's life.

JMO

I don't know how I feel about having my country defended by a Marine who doesn't understand what a chokehold taught in the first weeks of armed service training can do to another human being. JMO

 

[kittythehare]

We (the public) do not have those details.
However, the facts of his previous violent criminal record have been published so, that cat is out of the bag.

We (the public) DO know of his past, violent criminal history, and that DOES affect people's opinions, whether anyone likes it or not.

jmo

Well, I tell you truthfully I am not virtue signalling when I say again that he is not on trial and to put him on trial after he has been , in effect, colloquially, murdered is reading like an attempt to exonerate his killer or attribute him with psychic abilities we do not know he possesses.

I'm sure the investigation will reveal details of Penny's character that may not be pleasant either.

Because a normal person would not have behaved as Penny behaved on the day he killed Neely.
That is the criteria for a grand jury..
And that is my opinion.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Someone can still have compassion for him needlessly losing his life and not endorse his criminal history. I can say maybe he should have been restrained, as apparently he was outnumbered, but that doesn't mean his life needed to be taken.

Ironically, almost everyone posting on this thread, if not literally everyone, has said the same thing. Myself included.

 

[MyBelle]

I don't know how I feel about having my country defended by a Marine who doesn't understand what a chokehold taught in the first weeks of armed service training can do to another human being. JMO

Penny is no longer a Marine. The fact that he was a Marine--and did serve his country-- is irrelevant to this case.

JMO

 

[Rolypolyoly]

BBM. The charges reflect that Penny did not intentionally take JN's life.

JMO

I don't believe anyone here has implied that he did?

 

[elevatorific]

I'm sure the investigation will reveal details of Penny's character that may not be pleasant either.

rsbm. I do wonder if Penny was given a toxicology test. Would go a long way in explaining why a knowledgable marine would ignore his own training. imo