NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

[MyBelle]

Due to all the recent, tragic, mass shootings in the US, I think many people are on high alert when in public places, including public transportation.

Was there any way for Penny to know whether or not Jordan N. had a gun? JN was making very concerning statements. I wonder if this fear that Jordan potentially had a gun contributed to the response by Penny?

My opinion and concern.

No way to know if JN had any kind of weapon but we now know that JN had a history of viciously assaulting an elderly woman with his fists and was considered to be in the top 50 of the seriously mentally ill homeless that the city's social services tracked. What I don't understand is why, if he was in the "top 50" was he still in the subway threatening people.
I think the city needs to launch an investigation to determine how and why he wasn't being helped.

JMO

Jordan Neely was on NYC’s ‘Top 50 list’ of homeless people with urgent need for help before subway death

Referred to colloquially as the “Top 50” list, the internal catalogue held by the NYC Department of Homeless Services details which people are cycling in and out of homeless shelters an…

nypost.com

 

[HmmMysterious]

I'm sorry, but Daniel Penny's apologies and explanations suck. I found it infuriating when Penny said he couldn't be a white supremacist because he was planning a trip to AFRICA. <modsnip: link quotes an unapproved source/opinion piece>

 

[kittythehare]

I'm sorry, but Daniel Penny's apologies and explanations suck. I found it infuriating when Penny said he couldn't be a white supremacist because he was planning a trip to AFRICA. <modsnip: link quotes an unapproved source/opinion piece>

Maybe he didn't like the amount of coverage the funeral was receiving..
It was an outrageous statement.
Ludicrous interview IMO

But, here we are, eh?

 

[mickey2942]

I have been trained on holds for patients, and it is something that I have always been uncomfortable with. There is a slippery slope from a "therapeutic hold" to a "choke hold". Usually the person being held is extremely combative, hence the reason for the hold. But once they stop the behavior necessitating a hold, just let them be.

I wasn't there, so I am not going to judge anyone. The perpetrator is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

 

[elevatorific]

But, as I stated before - moving away would very possibly have escalated the situation. Also, ignoring JN may have escalated the situation as well.

rsbm
I have seen this stated here. Do you know of any case at all, anywhere, involving an unhinged person on a subway becoming further enraged simply by passengers moving away? Just curious.

 

[Deleted member 287549]

rsbm
I have seen this stated here. Do you know of any case at all, anywhere, involving an unhinged person on a subway becoming further enraged simply by passengers moving away? Just curious

1) I have witnessed situations where commuters have been sitting near someone acting unhinged. The commuter has eventually gotten up, and moved to another car. In some cases, almost immediately the unhinged person followed them. I didn't see what happened after that.

2) I have heard that women who take public transportation deal with things like this a lot more. Going along with this, I have talked to (and heard about) women who refuse to take the train due to unhinged people/harassment.

 

[elevatorific]

Definitely! I was waiting for someone to ask this:

I myself have been on the subway (not NYC) & was sitting near someone acting unhinged/erratic & muttering loudly to themselves, etc. I got up & moved to another seat a distance behind the original seat. And, the unhinged person immediately turned around & glared at me for a full five minutes & made threatening comments, etc. - obviously because I had drawn attention to myself by moving. The unhinged person didn't get up & move themselves, but they easily could have. I could have gotten up & moved to another car entirely at that point, but I didn't want to set them off any further.

In addition, I have seen situations where commuters have been sitting near someone acting unhinged. The commuter has gotten up, and moved to another car. In some cases, almost immediately the unhinged person followed them. I didn't see what happened after that.

I have other personal examples & could also post numerous links of others posting their similar personal experiences. However, I think links like this may be removed - especially since they're not directly related to the case.

However, I think you get the picture. <modsnip>

Oh my gosh. The unhinged person glared at you for 5 minutes. I'm so sorry that happened to you and sincerely glad you're OK.

But since that's just an anecdote, what I was hoping you would share would be any actual cases to prove your point that moving away from an unhinged person is not the right thing to do and is not a generally recommended safety approach. It sounds like it is though.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I'm sorry, but Daniel Penny's apologies and explanations suck. I found it infuriating when Penny said he couldn't be a white supremacist because he was planning a trip to AFRICA. <modsnip: link quotes an unapproved source/opinion piece>

If Penny assumed (as one would, after researching the demographics of Africa) the majority population of Africa is black (because it is), then yes, it would seem somewhat ludicrous to assume a white supremacist would plan a road trip where the majority of people are black.

<modsnip: quoted post was snipped>

I for one, believe the guy and feel sorry for him.
I feel sorry for JN too.
It's a nightmare all the way around.

jmo

 

[Deleted member 287549]

Oh my gosh. The unhinged person glared at you for 5 minutes. I'm so sorry that happened to you and sincerely glad you're OK.

But since that's just an anecdote, what I was hoping you would share would be any actual cases to prove your point that moving away from an unhinged person is not the right thing to do and is not a generally recommended safety approach. It sounds like it is though.

Thanks for the sarcasm - I appreciate it! These days, I'm the one that people move away from on the subway - which amuses me. Thankfully, the crazies stay away too.

Note that these days, all it takes is for someone to look at someone else funny in order for an assault to occur. And, in some cases - not even that. Note that there are nutjobs out there who will start attacking people for no reason at all - watch the news or read about some of the other cases on this site if you don't believe me.

 

[elevatorific]

Thanks for the sarcasm - I appreciate it! Yes, I was never in 'fear for my life' at that point, but if the person had a weapon (not sure if they did or not) - who knows what could have happened.

These days, I'm the one that people move away from on the subway - which amuses me. Thankfully, the crazies stay away too.

Note that these days, all it takes is for someone to look at someone else funny in order for an assault to occur. And, in some cases - not even that. Note that there are nutjobs out there who will start attacking people for no reason at all - watch the news or read about some of the other cases on this site if you don't believe me.

If you don't think that someone yelling/ranting & raving & using threatening language is not a threat - then you haven't been paying attention.

IMO your suggestion that its best to not make any sudden movements around someone that makes you uncomfortable in case that will make it worse... I just can't find any evidence to support that.

IMO the absolute most fundamental safety tip on public transit and elsewhere for people of all ages is to get away from someone if they make you feel unsafe. It may not always work, but it is exceptionally unlikely to make things worse. JMO.

 

[Ontario Mom]

rsbm
I have seen this stated here. Do you know of any case at all, anywhere, involving an unhinged person on a subway becoming further enraged simply by passengers moving away? Just curious.

It's been mentioned on this thread a couple of different times.

"Disturbing footage recently shared on social media shows a person menacing subway riders, kicking a car window and yanking on a woman’s hair as she tried to escape while other straphangers avoid the outburst. The roughly two-minute video posted Wednesday on Twitter by Joel Fischer shows a person who appears to be unwell screaming obscenities, before sitting down and grabbing a J Train rider’s hair as she attempts to move away. “Somebody help me,” the trapped, anguished woman said softly. Meanwhile, fellow commuters either looked on, moved away from or ignored the pair without coming to her assistance."

Video shows NYC subway rider tug woman’s hair, kick window as straphangers look on

The roughly two-minute video posted Wednesday on Twitter shows a person who appears to be unwell screaming obscenities, before sitting down and grabbing a J Train rider’s hair.

nypost.com

While it's not this case, the very advice some have given in this case is what this woman tried to do.
Look at her face. Look at her fear. It's hard to watch this without your heart hurting for her. This is how "getting up and moving away" worked for her. The comments at the end of the article are interesting, as they 100% pertain to this very case.

 

[Deleted member 287549]

Thanks for the example & link. This is EXACTLY what I was talking about. I.e., commuters moving away from these unhinged people may set them off. So, this does obviously occur. That criminal in the video should have been arrested for assault!!!

 

[elevatorific]

It's been mentioned on this thread a couple of different times.

"Disturbing footage recently shared on social media shows a person menacing subway riders, kicking a car window and yanking on a woman’s hair as she tried to escape while other straphangers avoid the outburst. The roughly two-minute video posted Wednesday on Twitter by Joel Fischer shows a person who appears to be unwell screaming obscenities, before sitting down and grabbing a J Train rider’s hair as she attempts to move away. “Somebody help me,” the trapped, anguished woman said softly. Meanwhile, fellow commuters either looked on, moved away from or ignored the pair without coming to her assistance."

Video shows NYC subway rider tug woman’s hair, kick window as straphangers look on

The roughly two-minute video posted Wednesday on Twitter shows a person who appears to be unwell screaming obscenities, before sitting down and grabbing a J Train rider’s hair.

nypost.com

While it's not this case, the very advice some have given in this case is what this woman tried to do.
Look at her face. Look at her fear. It's hard to watch this without your heart hurting for her. This is how "getting up and moving away" worked for her. The comments at the end of the article are interesting, as they 100% pertain to this very case.

What I see there is a physical attack - a scary one, at that! - where those who were able to get away did and were safe, and once the victim there was able to get away, she did as well. So again, how on earth is getting away from a suspicious or scary person a bad thing?

 

[IDK]

What I see there is a physical attack - a scary one, at that! - where those who were able to get away did and were safe, and once the victim there was able to get away, she did as well. So again, how on earth is getting away from a suspicious or scary person a bad thing?

Unfortunately some disturbed ( and/ or drunk) individuals become belligerent and angry when you try to move away from them— I have experienced this myself. It’s extremely frightening because you are trying to avoid potential conflict and they are escalating. It sounds like JN was escalating, IMO.

 

[Cryptic]

I think the city needs to launch an investigation to determine how and why he wasn't being helped.

I strongly suspect that the investigation would reveal that:

- Neely had refused help on numerous occasions.
- Neely did not think he needed help.
- Forcing an unwilling individual to submit to psychiatric treatment is legally very difficult.

 

[PrairieWind]

IMO your suggestion that its best to not make any sudden movements around someone that makes you uncomfortable in case that will make it worse... I just can't find any evidence to support that.

IMO the absolute most fundamental safety tip on public transit and elsewhere for people of all ages is to get away from someone if they make you feel unsafe. It may not always work, but it is exceptionally unlikely to make things worse. JMO.

It certainly could make it much worse. I, a fit and capable military veteran, am uncomfortable by this man's erotic and threatening behavior. I choose to leave the car and move to the next. I leave behind some elderly folks or some women. Now the erotic man is much more emboldened. I'm sorry, but many people would think, I can't just walk away. We can't encourage an "everyone for themselves" mentality. Would we say "good job" to this young man if he left behind others less capable than him in a burning building? "Don't get involved." Or would we shame him?

 

[Charlot123]

.

One of my first posts on this thread offered a non-violent alternative to what Penny & Co offered Mr Neely. We’ll never know whether that approach could have made a difference for Mr Neely that day, and plenty think it would not. But I was gratified to note that Elie Mystal advocated the same approach in his previously-linked article “Vigilante Killings on the Subway Are Not Legal or Moral.” Call me naive and out of touch with current realities, but I will never regret leading with love and kindness. Unfortunately for Mr Neely, frustration, fear and disgust took the lead and the result was neither legal nor moral.

JMO

Vigilante Killings on the Subway Are Not Legal or Moral

Days after Daniel Penny was charged with killing Jordan Neely, a pro-vigilante crowd has emerged to defend his actions. But what are they really saying?

www.thenation.com

Quoting from the link:

We know that Penny committed a crime because we know that there were nonviolent ways to handle the situation that Penny, and others on the subway, didn’t appear to even try. The easiest way to diffuse the situation on the train that day would likely have been to offer Neely a sandwich. Or a bottle of water. Or five bucks. That’s still the most shocking thing about this whole situation. The “hostile” and “aggressive” things that Neely said on the train were, “I don’t have food. I don’t have drink. I’m fed up.” And in response, nobody thought to give him food or water or money. None of Penny’s defenders can explain why choking a man to death is defending other passengers on the subway, but giving a desperate man some indication of compassion and charity is not.

What’s lost on French and others defending Penny is that Neely was a passenger on that subway too. He was the passenger who was violently assaulted. But no one helped him. No vigilante Batman appeared to say “In addition to being a secret ninja, I’m also rich. Here’s 10 bucks…” Nobody parted with a bag of cashews in their purse or a bottle of Poland Spring they hadn’t finished from lunch. French thinks that the way to save Neely from Penny would have been to keep Neely in jail. I think anybody carrying small bills could have saved Neely that day.

You know, I reread your post today. It is not naive at all.

If you look at Neely's behavior as a cry for help, because he is homeless, ill and lonely, then maybe anything, a sandwich to make him feel not "hangry," water, a bill - would have been a show of support. I remember how many years ago, I was taking my kid and his friend to a Seattle Needle brunch, and a guy, probably not unlike Neely, was panhandling nearby. I gave him a decent bill, out of guilt because our mornings were so different, and he suddenly said, "my mom was white". Having walked inside, i cried, because he was obviously trying to be friendly, and it was the only thing he could find to bridge the gap. I did nothing; we have religious groups feeding the homeless every weekend, and while I can't share their belief, I respect them for their sense of duty and kindness. There are teachers in our city having no Christmas vacation because kids from the tent cities attending them can't stay on the streets in winter. There are lots of actively good people around. In NY, too.

About Penny. The court will decide on the legality. I hope they won't be harsh on him. One question, though, would any of us want to have such a neighbor? Me - not, unless he goes through a lot of therapy. He says he is not a white supremacist; I totally believe him, but if he doesn't want to turn into a mascot for them, if he wants to have a normal life and raise kids who are not afraid of him, and get at peace with all of it, a lot of work is needed. I know VA has good programs, I hope one will be offered for him.

JMO. We all have homeless, and while today I need to drive to Seattle to see them, soon the light rail will bring them to my city.

 

[IDK]

It certainly could make it much worse. I, a fit and capable military veteran, am uncomfortable by this man's erotic and threatening behavior. I choose to leave the car and move to the next. I leave behind some elderly folks or some women. Now the erotic man is much more emboldened. I'm sorry, but many people would think, I can't just walk away. We can't encourage an "everyone for themselves" mentality. Would we say "good job" to this young man if he left behind others less capable than him in a burning building? "Don't get involved." Or would we shame him?

Agree with all of the above-/ but think you meant to say “erratic”.

 

[Charlot123]

I strongly suspect that the investigation would reveal that:

- Neely had refused help on numerous occasions.
- Neely did not think he needed help.
- Forcing an unwilling individual to submit to psychiatric treatment is legally very difficult.

Look, realistically, what is help?

The best way to give medications to homeless is via monthly injections; there are great drugs that turn things around. But they cost! The cheapest cost for Aristada is about 3000 dollars. It still would be cost-sufficient as it would bypass hospitalization costs, etc. But the mentally ill has to agree.

Also, imagine he gets his shot. He is still homeless and likely, very likely, unable to hold a job. Looking around himself in a non-psychotic state would be probably worse. Gabor Maté writes that every homeless has PTSD; this, too. So he will be on drugs, if only not to see the reality of his life.

If he had a good family support system, it could make a difference, but very few do.

 

[Cryptic]

If Penny assumed (as one would, after researching the demographics of Africa) the majority population of Africa is black (because it is), then yes, it would seem somewhat ludicrous to assume a white supremacist would plan a road trip where the majority of people are black.

I agree, the claims of racism are totally unfounded and an attorney making them later deleted his Twitter posts when Penny threatened to file lawsuits against those making unsubstantiated claims.

That being said, Penny needs to become his own best advocate. And what Penny needs now is a silent advocate. His past statement of alluding to no regrets regarding the incident sets a bad tone. Time to let the attorney(s) do the talking and Penny becomes a "silent partner".