NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

[Deleted member 39678]

Yeah, he also states that it is known colloquially as murder which is an explainer.

Which means that legally Mr Penny is not charged with murder because of NY State statutes. JMO.

 

[MyBelle]

Murder in NY requires intent, but in popular language is a bit broader.

I think that is why Penny has been charged with 2nd degree manslaughter. 1st degree manslaughter also requires intent.

Legislation

www.nysenate.gov

 

[Charlot123]

On a side note - chokehold has resulted in death, too many times. I don’t plan to “name a few”, but everything, the neck length, atherosclerosis, the weight, cardiovascular disease, lung disease or merely being sick, hungry or thirsty could contribute to demise. How many times do we have to discuss it?

 

[MyBelle]

Thanks. So the fact that Mr Penny wasn't charged with murder is because the evidence doesn't support a murder charge. JMO.

I'm not sure if the evidence even supports a 2nd degree manslaughter charge at this point. I look forward to seeing evidence at trial.

JMO

 

[Ontario Mom]

I'm not sure if the evidence even supports a 2nd degree manslaughter charge at this point. I look forward to seeing evidence at trial.

JMO

I think the evidence likely supports "recklessly causing the death" of Neely, but I also think extenuating circumstances played such a pivotal role, that they cannot be ignored by any reasonable party.

If the majority of witnesses who were present at the time, all testify in the same manner that he was threatening violence, then that will have to factor in as well.

jmo

 

[Charlot123]

We have absolutely zero evidence to suggest that Daniel Penny is a racist, let alone a white supremacist, and exactly the same amount of evidence that this was a racially motivated incident.
None whatsoever, and I don't think it was for one second.

For what it's worth, I also don't think he had any malintent that day, he reacted to a situation, that's all.
I think he reacted to soon, and in the wrong way, but I don't think it was with malice. I do think that he had choices, even after he put his arm around Neely's neck and took him to the floor, and unfortunately he consistently, imo, made the wrong ones.

It's his actions in those moments, and the moments after that I have an issue with, and his demeanour afterwards gives me reason to think that he isn't sorry Jordan Neely is dead, or that he was the one who ended his life. That doesn't mean I think he is a bad guy, I don't, it just means that I think he believes what he did was right and that Jordan Neely alone is responsible for his own death, and that Penny himself did nothing wrong.

I think the filing of charges is the right thing because Penny is a trained marine, he is trained to assess a situation and the most appropriate course of action, especially in a crisis. He is trained in using chokeholds, and he knows they can easily kill, and I am willing to bet he is trained in much safer but just as effective manoeuvres to restrain someone, and he made the wrong decision, that decision cost a man his life, and Daniel Penny should be held accountable for that.

In all honesty, if he is indicted, I don't think I can call it as to whether he will be convicted, but if I'm guessing, probably not.

I hope he learns something about the value of all life from this at least, but at the moment I'm inclined to believe he isn't there yet.

All 100% just my opinion.

I agree. The reason he is not there yet is because of the situation that emerged - no one moved, and he, the 24-year-old, had to assume the role of the protector. I wonder if this is how the situation is viewed by Penny. We can’t project anything on him. If Penny is a local, it is more than likely that he is a regular New Yorker, but he is also only 24 years old, trained as a Marine, and has reached his patience limit. He views the situation how he viewed it then - no one stood up, and he had to. It will take some time to undo, and he needs a lot of mental help. It is a hard situation, because volens nolens, he is becoming a new archetype, too, hated by many but supported by a lot. How shall we call it? Vigilantism intended as protective but turning toxic?

ETA: watched the scene of choking. It seems that both Neely and Penny were both walking menaces, each for own reason.

 

[MyBelle]

I think the evidence likely supports "recklessly causing the death" of Neely, but I also think extenuating circumstances played such a pivotal role, that they cannot be ignored by any reasonable party.

If the majority of witnesses who were present at the time, all testify in the same manner that he was threatening violence, then that will have to factor in as well.

jmo

In the video I watched, Penny was grimacing because JN was struggling so hard. That is why I think his actions were appropriate and not "reckless." I do agree the witness testimony will be critical.

JMO

 

[Lilibet]

One of my first posts on this thread offered a non-violent alternative to what Penny & Co offered Mr Neely. We’ll never know whether that approach could have made a difference for Mr Neely that day, and plenty think it would not. But I was gratified to note that Elie Mystal advocated the same approach in his previously-linked article “Vigilante Killings on the Subway Are Not Legal or Moral.” Call me naive and out of touch with current realities, but I will never regret leading with love and kindness. Unfortunately for Mr Neely, frustration, fear and disgust took the lead and the result was neither legal nor moral.

JMO

Granted, it was scary for the passengers. But could no one on that train offer this clearly distressed man their own drink or snack or seat? Could no one show Jordan they cared? Apparently they’d rather watch him be murdered than show him human kindness. Could no brave young man persuade the marine to let go. Could no feisty old lady hit the marine in his butt with her cane (hard) to distract him (speaking as one who would have). This took long enough that someone could have stepped in to help Neely, rather than help the marine kill him. Evil triumphed that day.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing,”

Vigilante Killings on the Subway Are Not Legal or Moral

Days after Daniel Penny was charged with killing Jordan Neely, a pro-vigilante crowd has emerged to defend his actions. But what are they really saying?

www.thenation.com

Quoting from the link:

We know that Penny committed a crime because we know that there were nonviolent ways to handle the situation that Penny, and others on the subway, didn’t appear to even try. The easiest way to diffuse the situation on the train that day would likely have been to offer Neely a sandwich. Or a bottle of water. Or five bucks. That’s still the most shocking thing about this whole situation. The “hostile” and “aggressive” things that Neely said on the train were, “I don’t have food. I don’t have drink. I’m fed up.” And in response, nobody thought to give him food or water or money. None of Penny’s defenders can explain why choking a man to death is defending other passengers on the subway, but giving a desperate man some indication of compassion and charity is not.

What’s lost on French and others defending Penny is that Neely was a passenger on that subway too. He was the passenger who was violently assaulted. But no one helped him. No vigilante Batman appeared to say “In addition to being a secret ninja, I’m also rich. Here’s 10 bucks…” Nobody parted with a bag of cashews in their purse or a bottle of Poland Spring they hadn’t finished from lunch. French thinks that the way to save Neely from Penny would have been to keep Neely in jail. I think anybody carrying small bills could have saved Neely that day.

 

[Lilibet]

In the video I watched, Penny was grimacing because JN was struggling so hard. That is why I think his actions were appropriate and not "reckless." I do agree the witness testimony will be critical.

JMO

I think any one of us would struggle hard to preserve our air supply! Struggling for your life is not a reason for your assailant to double down on a choke hold.

JMO

 

[Sundog]

One of my first posts on this thread offered a non-violent alternative to what Penny & Co offered Mr Neely. We’ll never know whether that approach could have made a difference for Mr Neely that day, and plenty think it would not. But I was gratified to note that Elie Mystal advocated the same approach in his previously-linked article “Vigilante Killings on the Subway are neither Legal nor Moral.” Call me naive and out of touch with current realities, but I will never regret leading with love and kindness. Unfortunately for Mr Neely, frustration, fear and disgust took the lead and the result was neither legal nor moral.

JMO

Vigilante Killings on the Subway Are Not Legal or Moral

Days after Daniel Penny was charged with killing Jordan Neely, a pro-vigilante crowd has emerged to defend his actions. But what are they really saying?

www.thenation.com

Quoting from the link:

We know that Penny committed a crime because we know that there were nonviolent ways to handle the situation that Penny, and others on the subway, didn’t appear to even try. The easiest way to diffuse the situation on the train that day would likely have been to offer Neely a sandwich. Or a bottle of water. Or five bucks. That’s still the most shocking thing about this whole situation. The “hostile” and “aggressive” things that Neely said on the train were, “I don’t have food. I don’t have drink. I’m fed up.” And in response, nobody thought to give him food or water or money. None of Penny’s defenders can explain why choking a man to death is defending other passengers on the subway, but giving a desperate man some indication of compassion and charity is not.

What’s lost on French and others defending Penny is that Neely was a passenger on that subway too. He was the passenger who was violently assaulted. But no one helped him. No vigilante Batman appeared to say “In addition to being a secret ninja, I’m also rich. Here’s 10 bucks…” Nobody parted with a bag of cashews in their purse or a bottle of Poland Spring they hadn’t finished from lunch. French thinks that the way to save Neely from Penny would have been to keep Neely in jail. I think anybody carrying small bills could have saved Neely that day.

Lots of opinion pieces published on the subway incident, and good that the case will be tried in court and not by public opinion.

 

[kittythehare]

Lots of opinion pieces published on the subway incident, and good that the case will be tried in court and not by public opinion.

Not all are legally qualified, however

Elie Mystal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Sundog]

Not all are legally qualified, however

Elie Mystal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Lots of lawyers have been pontificating about the case, but the only ones that matter are the ones that will be in the court room trying this case in front of a jury.
The rest is just opinion, with much of it having nothing to do with the legal issues.

IMO.

 

[MyBelle]

I think any one of us would struggle hard to preserve our air supply! Struggling for your life is not a reason for your assailant to double down on a choke hold.

JMO

I think self-defense was his reason for the chock hold. Two other men were also helping restrain JN.

JMO

 

[kittythehare]

Lots of lawyers have been pontificating about the case, but the only ones that matter are the ones that will be in the court room trying this case in front of a jury.
The rest is just opinion, with much of it having nothing to do with the legal issues.

IMO.

On the contrary he set out in great detail the meaning of the law in a way that is accessible to all and sundry.
His piece has everything to do with the pertinent legal issues.
Here's a link, again in case you missed it.

Vigilante Killings on the Subway Are Not Legal or Moral

Days after Daniel Penny was charged with killing Jordan Neely, a pro-vigilante crowd has emerged to defend his actions. But what are they really saying?

www.thenation.com

 

[Lilibet]

Lots of opinion pieces published on the subway incident, and good that the case will be tried in court and not by public opinion.

Well, of course it’s good that it will be tried in court. I don’t believe I, or any Websleuther would suggest otherwise. That’s how our legal system operates, thankfully. Mr Penny has not been subject to extra-judicial punishment, just opinions.

Unfortunately, Mr Neely’s words and actions on the day of his killing on the floor of the subway car were not subject to being tried in court, were they?

 

[Lilibet]

I think self-defense was his reason for the chock hold. Two other men were also helping restrain JN.

JMO

AFAIK Penny has not offered any evidence that he needed to defend himself or anyone else, nor have I seen links that he was threatened. He came from behind with his choke-hold, so when was he threatened? Who did Mr Neely threaten directly? Did he threaten the two men helping Penny? Not that we know.

 

[MyBelle]

Lots of lawyers have been pontificating about the case, but the only ones that matter are the ones that will be in the court room trying this case in front of a jury.
The rest is just opinion, with much of it having nothing to do with the legal issues.

IMO.

Lots of lawyers wanting the publicity will say whatever the person paying them wants them to say. I agree, the only lawyers that matter are the ones trying this case. I think he and the other men were trying to protect the women in that subway car. Penny didn't go looking for JN. JN came to him.

If LE considered Penny to be a "vigilante" he would have been charged with murder.

JMO

'Oh come on!': Watch the moment police arrest vigilante murderer who stabbed thief to death

Father and son David and Edward King, from Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, were sentenced to life in prison for murdering thief Neil Charles.

news.yahoo.com

 

[MyBelle]

AFAIK Penny has not offered any evidence that he needed to defend himself or anyone else, nor have I seen links that he was threatened. He came from behind with his choke-hold, so when was he threatened? Who did Mr Neely threaten directly? Did he threaten the two men helping Penny? Not that we know.

Why should he? He hasn't entered a plea and his attorney told him to not discuss the case. I'll wait to hear the actual evidence presented at trial.

JMO

 

[Lilibet]

Lots of lawyers wanting the publicity will say whatever the person paying them wants them to say. I agree, the only lawyers that matter are the ones trying this case. I think he and the other men were trying to protect the women in that subway car. Penny didn't go looking for JN. JN came to him.

If LE considered Penny to be a "vigilante" he would have been charged with murder.

JMO

'Oh come on!': Watch the moment police arrest vigilante murderer who stabbed thief to death

Father and son David and Edward King, from Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, were sentenced to life in prison for murdering thief Neil Charles.

news.yahoo.com

Wow! Had Neely specifically threatened women that day in that car? If not, why would Penny and the other two men feel the need to protect women? When did Mr Neely come to Penny?

 

[kittythehare]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/photography/interactive/2023/jordan-neely-funeral-al-sharpton-subway-chokehold-death/?itid=co_jordan-neely_1