NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

[MyBelle]

Following up on several points/posts:

The reason this issue resonates so much with people is that it's so incredibly relatable. Many of us take/have taken public transportation & had to deal with mentally ill/homeless/threatening people - especially on trains. And, NO ONE who takes public transportation & is just minding their own business should be subjected to threats of violence without provocation - whether or not these threats are actually carried out.

<modsnip - no link from an approved source to statement made as fact>

It is very relatable to those of us who live in urban areas where public transportation is relied upon. Escalating violence is a serious problem in most large cities:

Activists, Riders Call for Added Security Measures on CTA Trains and Buses After String of Recent Crimes

Some Chicagoans are calling for the CTA to implement additional safety measures after a series of crimes on either trains or buses within the past week.

www.nbcchicago.com

 

[everybodhi]

It is very relatable to those of us who live in urban areas where public transportation is relied upon. Escalating violence is a serious problem in most large cities:

Activists, Riders Call for Added Security Measures on CTA Trains and Buses After String of Recent Crimes

Some Chicagoans are calling for the CTA to implement additional safety measures after a series of crimes on either trains or buses within the past week.

www.nbcchicago.com

Perception and reality are two different things.

Homeland Security
New York Subway Crime Down as New Security and Safety Measures Implemented

In 2019, the rate of crime was 1.5 crimes per million riders. In 2022, the rate of crime was 2.3 per million riders, so far in 2023, the ridership adjusted rate is only 1.7 per million riders. Transit murders decreased from four to two. Further, this January has seen the lowest level of transit crime compared to any January since 1993, when this data was first collected. Transit shootings are down 14 percent, and there has been a notable decrease in robberies, down 30 percent.

FACT FOCUS: NYC crime is not worst ever, despite claims

Major crimes are, overall, down 72% from 1993 in Manhattan, according to his analysis of borough-level crime data. The 438 murders recorded citywide last year, moreover, are vastly less than the 2,262 recorded in 1990, NYPD’s April 16 report shows.

What’s more, the citywide violent crime rate — the number of reported crimes divided by the city’s population — has remained relatively flat in the past decade.

Conservatives and other users widely shared a video clip of New York City Councilman Robert Holden, who testified at the special hearing in Manhattan that he’s “never seen the lawlessness” he’s seen today in his lifetime.

Meanwhile Holden’s chief of staff Daniel Kurzyna, in an email Tuesday, stressed the councilman never referenced crime, only “lawlessness” in his remarks.
“In his testimony, he clearly stated that he had never seen this level of lawlessness in the city before, which he stands by,” Kurzyna wrote. “By lawlessness, and the Council Member had mentioned this several times on the record, including in recent interviews, is the level of anti-police rhetoric, the lack of fear of consequences, folks running red lights, e-bikes on sidewalks, rampant fare evasion and turnstile jumping, and others.”

 

[MyBelle]

Perception and reality are two different things.

Homeland Security
New York Subway Crime Down as New Security and Safety Measures Implemented

In 2019, the rate of crime was 1.5 crimes per million riders. In 2022, the rate of crime was 2.3 per million riders, so far in 2023, the ridership adjusted rate is only 1.7 per million riders. Transit murders decreased from four to two. Further, this January has seen the lowest level of transit crime compared to any January since 1993, when this data was first collected. Transit shootings are down 14 percent, and there has been a notable decrease in robberies, down 30 percent.

FACT FOCUS: NYC crime is not worst ever, despite claims

Major crimes are, overall, down 72% from 1993 in Manhattan, according to his analysis of borough-level crime data. The 438 murders recorded citywide last year, moreover, are vastly less than the 2,262 recorded in 1990, NYPD’s April 16 report shows.

What’s more, the citywide violent crime rate — the number of reported crimes divided by the city’s population — has remained relatively flat in the past decade.

Conservatives and other users widely shared a video clip of New York City Councilman Robert Holden, who testified at the special hearing in Manhattan that he’s “never seen the lawlessness” he’s seen today in his lifetime.

Meanwhile Holden’s chief of staff Daniel Kurzyna, in an email Tuesday, stressed the councilman never referenced crime, only “lawlessness” in his remarks.
“In his testimony, he clearly stated that he had never seen this level of lawlessness in the city before, which he stands by,” Kurzyna wrote. “By lawlessness, and the Council Member had mentioned this several times on the record, including in recent interviews, is the level of anti-police rhetoric, the lack of fear of consequences, folks running red lights, e-bikes on sidewalks, rampant fare evasion and turnstile jumping, and others.”

My posting was specific about violence on public transportation. Violence has increased on NYC's mass transit. I'm sure the citizens are well aware and that's the reason ridership went way down.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

www.bloomberg.com

New York City’s subway crime rose by 30% in 2022 from a year ago, outpacing the 22% jump in major crimes across the city during the same period, according to police data released this week.

The increase comes despite the deployment of thousands of additional police patrols in the transit system, which has limits due to high costs and the toll it takes on cops.

 

[everybodhi]

My posting was specific about violence on public transportation. Violence has increased on NYC's mass transit. I'm sure the citizens are well aware and that's the reason ridership went way down.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

www.bloomberg.com

New York City’s subway crime rose by 30% in 2022 from a year ago, outpacing the 22% jump in major crimes across the city during the same period, according to police data released this week.

The increase comes despite the deployment of thousands of additional police patrols in the transit system, which has limits due to high costs and the toll it takes on cops.

The links I provided discuss the rise in 2021 but that started falling in 22 with the added patrols (per your link) and has continued to fall as statistics reported more recently.
From your link:
“This plan is paying dividends,” Kemper said. “We went from a very concerning increase in crime for the first 10 months of the year to a sharp turnaround during the last nine weeks of the year.”

 

[Laughing]

The links I provided discuss the rise in 2022 but that has come back down

iirc, the drop in crime corresponds to the drop in riders.

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[MyBelle]

The links I provided discuss the rise in 2022 but that has come back down

Your link also says this and unfortunately, JN fell through the cracks:

There are now 10 teams of specially trained mental health practitioners – known as Safe Options Support teams -working with emergency shelters, outreach providers, supportive housing facilitates in New York City to transition the estimated 3,900 individuals living on the street or in the subway system into a stable living environment. These teams have already enrolled 650 individuals into Critical Time Intervention services, an evidence-based practice that helps connect vulnerable individuals to housing and services during difficult times of transition in their lives.

 

[MyBelle]

iirc, the drop in crime corresponds to the drop in riders.

jmho ymmv lrr

I think that Penny and all the other riders in the car that day were well aware of the violent crime rate on the subway.

JMO

 

[everybodhi]

Your link also says this and unfortunately, JN fell through the cracks:

There are now 10 teams of specially trained mental health practitioners – known as Safe Options Support teams -working with emergency shelters, outreach providers, supportive housing facilitates in New York City to transition the estimated 3,900 individuals living on the street or in the subway system into a stable living environment. These teams have already enrolled 650 individuals into Critical Time Intervention services, an evidence-based practice that helps connect vulnerable individuals to housing and services during difficult times of transition in their lives.

Yeah, 650 people out of 3,900 (identified) isn’t good enough but criminalizing the mentally ill isn’t a solution, nor is extrajudicial killing.
Statistics have long shown mentally ill people are more likely to be victims of crime rather than perpetrators.

Psychiatric Illness And Criminality - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf.

“Currently, there is scant evidence to suggest that mental illness can independently predict criminal behavior. On the contrary, there is ample evidence that shows that persons with mental illness are far more likely to be the victim of violent crime rather than the perpetrator.”

 

[shotgun09]

Your link also says this and unfortunately, JN fell through the cracks:

There are now 10 teams of specially trained mental health practitioners – known as Safe Options Support teams -working with emergency shelters, outreach providers, supportive housing facilitates in New York City to transition the estimated 3,900 individuals living on the street or in the subway system into a stable living environment. These teams have already enrolled 650 individuals into Critical Time Intervention services, an evidence-based practice that helps connect vulnerable individuals to housing and services during difficult times of transition in their lives.

650???
Wasn't JN supposedly on " the list' ? The top 50? What happened to that, I wonder. That's not falling through the cracks, IMO. That is getting thrown off a cliff into a viper den!
Poor guy was IGNORED. MOO

 

[everybodhi]

iirc, the drop in crime corresponds to the drop in riders.

jmho ymmv lrr

Ridership has only increased since the pandemic, but anyway, the crime statistics are per 100,000 riders.
https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/riders-return/

Subway ridership is bouncing back, but bus ridership has plateaued. During the first two years of the pandemic, annual bus ridership remained between 56% and 57% of pre-pandemic 2019 levels. Meanwhile, subway ridership dragged at 37% of pre-pandemic levels in 2020 and 48% in 2021. This trend changed in June 2022, when the pace of subway recovery eclipsed bus recovery. In February 2023, subway ridership was at 65% of pre-pandemic levels – up from 56% at the same point in 2022. While bus ridership did not drop nearly as far as subway ridership during the pandemic, it has recovered at a slower pace, growing from 60% to 65% over the past year.

 

[MyBelle]

650???
Wasn't JN supposedly on " the list' ? The top 50? What happened to that, I wonder. That's not falling through the cracks, IMO. That is getting thrown off a cliff into a viper den!
Poor guy was IGNORED. MOO

I'm wondering, too. That could be why LE initially didn't want to charge Penny and only did so after protests.

JMO

 

[kittythehare]

Why was Mr Penny charged with second degree manslaughter instead of murder?

Great explainer here

Vigilante Killings on the Subway Are Not Legal or Moral

Days after Daniel Penny was charged with killing Jordan Neely, a pro-vigilante crowd has emerged to defend his actions. But what are they really saying?

www.thenation.com

Comparatively speaking, second-degree manslaughter should be easy to prove. Was Jordan Neely killed? Yes. Was his death caused by Daniel Penny? Yes. Were Penny’s actions reckless? Yes, it is inherently, obviously reckless to choke someone. This is pretty much what second-degree manslaughter is designed for: Maybe you didn’t mean to kill that person, but you did something that could have killed him, and he died, so now you go to jail. That’s how things should work in a civil society.

[...]

Nobody wants that. The pro-Penny types want that only if poor people or people of color are the ones who can be killed because of their perceived threat. Justifying Daniel Penny’s behavior doesn’t lead to more safety but to lawless chaos.

Penny has to be prosecuted for this crime, and should be convicted. Penny behaved recklessly, and his recklessness killed somebody else. Treating the situation as anything else is madness

 

[kittythehare]

<snipped for focus>

Apparently not, he wasn't charged with murder.

Vigilante Killings on the Subway Are Not Legal or Moral

Days after Daniel Penny was charged with killing Jordan Neely, a pro-vigilante crowd has emerged to defend his actions. But what are they really saying?

www.thenation.com

 

[kittythehare]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1660391039591481344

 

[kittythehare]

https://www.npr.org/2023/05/21/1177435414/daniel-penny-interview-nyc-subway-killing-jordan-neely

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Great explainer here

Vigilante Killings on the Subway Are Not Legal or Moral

Days after Daniel Penny was charged with killing Jordan Neely, a pro-vigilante crowd has emerged to defend his actions. But what are they really saying?

www.thenation.com

Thanks. So the fact that Mr Penny wasn't charged with murder is because the evidence doesn't support a murder charge. JMO.

 

[kittythehare]

Thanks. So the fact that Mr Penny wasn't charged with murder is because the evidence doesn't support a murder charge. JMO.

Yeah, he also states that it is known colloquially as murder which is an explainer.

 

[10ofRods]

Thanks. So the fact that Mr Penny wasn't charged with murder is because the evidence doesn't support a murder charge. JMO.

Murder in NY requires intent, but in popular language is a bit broader.

 

[MyBelle]

Thanks. So the fact that Mr Penny wasn't charged with murder is because the evidence doesn't support a murder charge. JMO.

That's right. Even the Mayor of NYC has said the system failed JN.

Mayor Eric Adams: New York City failed Jordan Neely

"Over the last several years, Jordan was connected with many city agencies. He had various encounters with criminal justice, and was provided services to help him live safely in the community. Those efforts were not enough, and we must find ways to strengthen our system," Adams said.

Adams is calling for more supporting housing for mental health patients, extended care to cover court-ordered outpatient treatment, and stronger legislation to allow state intervention when someone is deemed a threat to themselves, or others. He also announced a mental health summit to address the systemic issues next week.

District Attorney Alvin Bragg will present the case to a grand jury as early as this week.

 

[Sillybilly]

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Thank you.