NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

[kittythehare]

Exactly. What former Marine doesn't know that a 15 minute chokehold will cause death?

I think the 15 minutes bit is an exaggeration though multiple MSM reported it.

The truth is that it can be done in seconds, no need for prolonging it, yet he did.

When executed properly, a blood choke takes between eight and thirteen seconds for the opponent to lose consciousness. When a blood choke is incorrectly performed, most likely the student is applying pressure to the windpipe and executing an air choke. 1. SAFETY CONSIDERATIONS. To prevent injury to students during training, ensure the following: a. Never execute a choke at full force or full speed during training because the carotid artery could collapse. b. Once a technique is applied to the point the student is uncomfortable, the student must "tap out" to indicate to his aggressor to immediately release pressure or stop the technique. The student "taps out" by firmly tapping his hand several times on any part of the aggressor's body, tapping on him or herself, on the ground or by verbally saying “tap”. The student should never go to the point of becoming light headed during a choke. c. Do not hold a choke for more than five seconds in training. d. Do not apply pressure to the op..

https://www.trngcmd.marines.mil/Portals/207/Docs/FMTBE/Student%20Materials/MCECST/B_Tan_Belt_Execute_Chokes_%20SO.pdf?ver=pJH__SmOfUgRAWuTKRUJDQ%3D%3D

 

[Aloe]

I think the 15 minutes bit is an exaggeration though multiple MSM reported it.

The truth is that it can be done in seconds, no need for prolonging it, yet he did.

When executed properly, a blood choke takes between eight and thirteen seconds for the opponent to lose consciousness. When a blood choke is incorrectly performed, most likely the student is applying pressure to the windpipe and executing an air choke. 1. SAFETY CONSIDERATIONS. To prevent injury to students during training, ensure the following: a. Never execute a choke at full force or full speed during training because the carotid artery could collapse. b. Once a technique is applied to the point the student is uncomfortable, the student must "tap out" to indicate to his aggressor to immediately release pressure or stop the technique. The student "taps out" by firmly tapping his hand several times on any part of the aggressor's body, tapping on him or herself, on the ground or by verbally saying “tap”. The student should never go to the point of becoming light headed during a choke. c. Do not hold a choke for more than five seconds in training. d. Do not apply pressure to the op..

https://www.trngcmd.marines.mil/Portals/207/Docs/FMTBE/Student%20Materials/MCECST/B_Tan_Belt_Execute_Chokes_%20SO.pdf?ver=pJH__SmOfUgRAWuTKRUJDQ%3D%3D

Thanks!

 

[kittythehare]

Thanks!

We only saw the end of it, full vid of end of it posted in past couple of days . If you can't find it, gimme a shout and I'll help you search..
We do not know what time it started or what preceded it.
It's a bit messy in that respect..

 

[Aloe]

Only the same evidence and information that leads to to the opposite conclusion.
My own eyes watching his behaviour in the video, his press release, witness recollections, so far I've only seen one person call him a hero and say they were terrified, and now his interview were he tells us all about what a sweet, loving human he is. How he loves his sisters and how living with all those women taught him to look at and consider other people's perspectives no matter his thoughts etc, over selling imo, I would rather he had just stayed quiet to be honest.

Just my interpretation of those things is all. I might be wrong, I might not.

That's why it's just my opinion.

I'm glad he spoke and oversold. I agree with your interpretation. MOO

 

[Lilibet]

3-4 men were capable of pinning down his arms and legs without a chokehold. I've seen it done often in hospitals with head injury patients.

There are non-lethal ways to restrain a person, like a 4 person take-down where you restrain their arms and legs until LE gets there.

Exactly. What former Marine doesn't know that a 15 minute chokehold will cause death?

These posts are the crux of this case. We’re going round and round about how much of a threat Mt Neely was, his prior arrests for violent crimes, etc. But the fact of the matter is that Mr Neely could have been successfully restrained by 3 or 4 passengers until LE could take charge, as @LinusK and others have observed and explained. There were two men assisting Mr Penny and all three could have restrained Mr Neely without using a chokehold. If Mr Neely was too difficult for three to control due to his mental illness or drug use, they could have asked for help and quite likely gotten it. A chokehold is not the main tool to use for restraint, and certainly would only need seconds, not minutes, to be effective if used properly. A Marine trained in these techniques knows they are dangerous if used more than briefly.

So the whole case will rest, at least in part, on whether Mr Penny used appropriate and legal restraint techniques, rather than one that he knew from his training could cause death. It’s really very simple. What is the most effective and least damaging way to prevent someone from damaging others or themselves? Why did Mr Penny, a trained Marine, initially use the chokehold, and why did he not ask for specific help from other and use standard techniques instead of keeping Mr Neely in a potentially lethal chokehold? If he didn’t know how to discern between Neely ceasing to resist and dying, he had no business using the chokehold. Mr. Neely had done nothing requiring death. Regardless of what one thinks of Mr Neely, Mr Penny or the system, his death really doesn’t make sense. This is a question that will need to be answered in court, if it gets that far.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

I know you are and I respect that.
But I'm worried too.
Worried that this will serve to tarnish all marines
and worried that it will lead to a spate of vigilante killings of marginalised peoples.

For some reason I am reminded of this Kipling poem

If—

If you can keep your head when all about you

poets.org

And also Ehrmann's work Desiderata.

Desiderata: Original Text

The words of both keep going around in my head while I work on this case..
hopefully i will come to understand why, at some point.

Penny doesn't fit the definition of "vigilante." Not even close. He didn't start out that day to "punish" criminals he thought LE wasn't pursuing.

JMO

 

[kittythehare]

Penny doesn't fit the definition of "vigilante." Not even close. He didn't start out that day to "punish" criminals he thought LE wasn't pursuing.

JMO

There are a billion definitions of vigilantism.
This is a good read

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23638013

 

[Aloe]

These posts are the crux of this case. We’re going round and round about how much of a threat Mt Neely was, his prior arrests for violent crimes, etc. But the fact of the matter is that Mr Neely could have been successfully restrained by 3 or 4 passengers until LE could take charge, as @LinusK and others have observed and explained. There were two men assisting Mr Penny and all three could have restrained Mr Neely without using a chokehold. If Mr Neely was too difficult for three to control due to his mental illness or drug use, they could have asked for help and quite likely gotten it. A chokehold is not the main tool to use for restraint, and certainly would only need seconds, not minutes, to be effective if used properly. A Marine trained in these techniques knows they are dangerous if used more than briefly.

So the whole case will rest, at least in part, on whether Mr Penny used appropriate and legal restraint techniques, rather than one that he knew from his training could cause death. It’s really very simple. What is the most effective and least damaging way to prevent someone from damaging others or themselves? Why did Mr Penny, a trained Marine, initially use the chokehold, and why did he not ask for specific help from other and use standard techniques instead of keeping Mr Neely in a potentially lethal chokehold? If he didn’t know how to discern between Neely ceasing to resist and dying, he had no business using the chokehold. Mr. Neely had done nothing requiring death. Regardless of what one thinks of Mr Neely, Mr Penny or the system, his death really doesn’t make sense. This is a question that will need to be answered in court, if it gets that far.

JMO

ETA @Lilibet jumping off your excellent post.

I hope to see justice for Jordan Neely.
DP committed murder, ain't no two ways about it.
I hope to see justice for the victim.
My opinion only.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

I have read multiple stories quoting "police sources" that said he was threatening people. I think that is why one elderly woman who was there keeps referring to Penny as a "hero."

The reason a warrant was issued after he walked away from the residential treatment center was because he was supposed to keep taking his psychiatric meds and stay away from illegal drugs. Being on drugs is the only reason I can think of to explain why he would punch an elderly woman in the face with enough force to break several of her facial bones. JN seemed to have a lot of strength struggling with those guys trying to hold him down. It will not surprise me if the tox report comes back positive.

JMO

Being on drugs is one possibility, as is just being a bad guy, for sure.

Another possibility is being schizophrenic, off meds (for whatever reason, stopped taking them, no access to them living on streets, no support system to encourage taking etc) and suffering from delusions.
Neely could have thought the woman he attacked was anyone or anything, just like he could have had nefarious reasons for attempting to kidnap a little girl, or he could have had the delusion that he was saving the child from a threat, he may not have recognised that his victims were an older woman (I don't think 66 is elderly these days) or a child at all.

Any of these things could be true, or some, or none. We will never know either way.

 

[Jade]

What in the comical hell does “I was actually planning a road trip through Africa” mean?

Like where the black people are?


all imo

 

[Ontario Mom]

What in the comical hell does “I was actually planning a road trip through Africa” mean?

Like where the black people are?


all imo

It means exactly what he said it means:

“I judge a person based on their character. I’m not a white supremacist. “I mean, it’s, it’s a little bit comical. Everybody who’s ever met me can tell you, I love all people, I love all cultures. You can tell by my past and all my travels and adventures around the world. I was actually planning a road trip through Africa before this happened.” Daniel Penny, charged in Jordan Neely death, breaks silence: ‘I am not a white supremacist’

The people and the culture of Africa is completely different than the people and the culture of New York where Penny is from. I've never actually known one (thankfully) but my guess is, someone who is a white supremacist living in a predominantly white city wouldn't plan a road trip through a country that is predominantly black.

jmo

 

[Reasonable & Just]

What in the comical hell does “I was actually planning a road trip through Africa” mean?

Like where the black people are?


all imo

There’s zero reason to think this crime is racially motivated at this point. I think it’s unfortunate that he isn’t more media savvy - 24 year olds in my neck of the woods tend to know that tons of bad people have gone to Africa for their own reasons, and that flashing your credentials as a good guy in that way raises eyebrows. Because the guy who loves, loves, loves everybody so much saw fit to come up behind another guy in a chokehold and hang on when other asked him to stop.

Unfortunately, his interview and his lawyer publicizing how he told first responders how to do CPR opens up the possibility to me that he is arrogant enough to show off, maybe came to the car angry, saw Neely ranting about how he wanted to die, and decided to teach him a lesson (without intending to kill him).

Just my own opinion, and I’m sure the odds are good I’ll be proven wrong, and no offense to those who believe he’s a hero (though he’s definitely not a Good Samaritan IMO). But for his own sake, given where the trial is happening, he and his lawyer should tone it down. Juries are imperfect and don’t always stick to the law (which may or may not be on his side in this case).

 

[Jade]

It means exactly what he said it means:

“I judge a person based on their character. I’m not a white supremacist. “I mean, it’s, it’s a little bit comical. Everybody who’s ever met me can tell you, I love all people, I love all cultures. You can tell by my past and all my travels and adventures around the world. I was actually planning a road trip through Africa before this happened.” Daniel Penny, charged in Jordan Neely death, breaks silence: ‘I am not a white supremacist’

The people and the culture of Africa is completely different than the people and the culture of New York where Penny is from. I've never actually known one (thankfully) but my guess is, someone who is a white supremacist living in a predominantly white city wouldn't plan a road trip through a country that is predominantly black.

jmo

Read about South Africa.

People who don't want a lion living in their backyard visit zoos.

Where I live the known self proclaimed white supremacist are vocal and public they've hit the papers and airwaves loudly pledging they are financially supporting Daniel Penny.

Who all is bragging about donations and endorsements for Penny will be revealing.

I'd take a public defender or spend the rest of my life paying it off before I would accept endorsements from them.

All imo

 

[Deleted member 39678]

ETA @Lilibet jumping off your excellent post.

I hope to see justice for Jordan Neely.
DP committed murder, ain't no two ways about it.
I hope to see justice for the victim.
My opinion only.

Why was Mr Penny charged with second degree manslaughter instead of murder?

 

[Sundog]

DP committed murder, ain't no two ways about it.

<snipped for focus>

Apparently not, he wasn't charged with murder.

 

[Sundog]

What in the comical hell does “I was actually planning a road trip through Africa” mean?

Like where the black people are?


all imo

It means that he embraces diverse cultures and seeks them out all over the world. He talked about other travels and his love of people and diverse cultures, e.g. Mexico and Central America, and where he was stationed overseas while in service.

jmo

 

[elevatorific]

Read about South Africa.

People who don't want a lion living in their backyard visit zoos.

Where I live the known self proclaimed white supremacist are vocal and public they've hit the papers and airwaves loudly pledging they are financially supporting Daniel Penny.

Who all is bragging about donations and endorsements for Penny will be revealing.

I'd take a public defender or spend the rest of my life paying it off before I would accept endorsements from them.

All imo

Odd thing is about the interview is... no one is calling Penny a white supremacist. I googled his name and 'white supremacist', all I can find is his own interview saying he's not one.

It's truly a straw man. imo.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

We have absolutely zero evidence to suggest that Daniel Penny is a racist, let alone a white supremacist, and exactly the same amount of evidence that this was a racially motivated incident.
None whatsoever, and I don't think it was for one second.

For what it's worth, I also don't think he had any malintent that day, he reacted to a situation, that's all.
I think he reacted to soon, and in the wrong way, but I don't think it was with malice. I do think that he had choices, even after he put his arm around Neely's neck and took him to the floor, and unfortunately he consistently, imo, made the wrong ones.

It's his actions in those moments, and the moments after that I have an issue with, and his demeanour afterwards gives me reason to think that he isn't sorry Jordan Neely is dead, or that he was the one who ended his life. That doesn't mean I think he is a bad guy, I don't, it just means that I think he believes what he did was right and that Jordan Neely alone is responsible for his own death, and that Penny himself did nothing wrong.

I think the filing of charges is the right thing because Penny is a trained marine, he is trained to assess a situation and the most appropriate course of action, especially in a crisis. He is trained in using chokeholds, and he knows they can easily kill, and I am willing to bet he is trained in much safer but just as effective manoeuvres to restrain someone, and he made the wrong decision, that decision cost a man his life, and Daniel Penny should be held accountable for that.

In all honesty, if he is indicted, I don't think I can call it as to whether he will be convicted, but if I'm guessing, probably not.

I hope he learns something about the value of all life from this at least, but at the moment I'm inclined to believe he isn't there yet.

All 100% just my opinion.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Odd thing is about the interview is... no one is calling Penny a white supremacist. I googled his name and 'white supremacist', all I can find is his own interview saying he's not one.

It's truly a straw man. imo.

They absolutely are, you must not be looking in the right places. Try typing either his or Jordans name into fb. I saw post after post literally accusing him of being a white supremacist.

 

[elevatorific]

They absolutely are, you must not be looking in the right places. Try typing either his or Jordans name into fb. I saw post after post literally accusing him of being a white supremacist.

I'm talking about media.