NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

[MyBelle]

Curious how folks can all watch the same video and come away with completely different impressions of what we're seeing. I wonder if the witnesses on the train car that day are the same way? It'll be interesting if we ever get to hear from all of them, and how they all perceived the situation first hand.

In regards to the bolded:

You assume Penny's thoughts and intentions to be malicious and uncaring, while I assume them to be without malice and concerned for the safety of himself and his fellow passengers. I'm giving Penny the benefit of the doubt.

I think he genuinely tried to neutralize a threat of violence and it went terribly wrong.

jmo

I agree. If Penny was unconcerned about JN's wellbeing, he wouldn't have helped turn him over nor would he have waited around for LE/help to arrive.

JMO

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Some of these things are instinctive in a crisis situation, like reaching for your hat. I doubt that has any bearing on the case.

That's the thing though, to me at least, he didn't appear to be in a crisis situation, he was calm the whole time, especially afterwards. He appeared completely unconcerned that the man he had just taken down in a prolonged chokehold was unconscious and possibly dead, and he didn't personally check. It didn't look to me as if he considered it a crisis at any point. JMO.

Curious how folks can all watch the same video and come away with completely different impressions of what we're seeing. I wonder if the witnesses on the train car that day are the same way? It'll be interesting if we ever get to hear from all of them, and how they all perceived the situation first hand.

In regards to the bolded:

You assume Penny's thoughts and intentions to be malicious and uncaring, while I assume them to be without malice and concerned for the safety of himself and his fellow passengers. I'm giving Penny the benefit of the doubt.

I think he genuinely tried to neutralize a threat of violence and it went terribly wrong.

jmo

I don't assume his thoughts to be malicious, I do think he was indifferent though, and yes, uncaring.

I don't think he intended to kill Jordan Neely, and I don't think his actions were malicious, but I also think he was wrong. I think he over reacted in that moment, or misjudged the situation that was developing, although I do understand why, I think he should have stayed alert but waited to see if Jordan made any sudden moves, and I think when he did act he should have found another way to restrain him, he came at him from behind, he had time.

That said, I don't believe that he is sorry for what transpired, I don't believe that he thinks Jordans life had any value, but that's just my opinion at this time, it's open to change if more facts come to light that say different.

 

[MyBelle]

That's the thing though, to me at least, he didn't appear to be in a crisis situation, he was calm the whole time, especially afterwards. He appeared completely unconcerned that the man he had just taken down in a prolonged chokehold was unconscious and possibly dead, and he didn't personally check. It didn't look to me as if he considered it a crisis at any point. JMO.



I don't assume his thoughts to be malicious, I do think he was indifferent though, and yes, uncaring.

I don't think he intended to kill Jordan Neely, and I don't think his actions were malicious, but I also think he was wrong. I think he over reacted in that moment, or misjudged the situation that was developing, although I do understand why, I think he should have stayed alert but waited to see if Jordan made any sudden moves, and I think when he did act he should have found another way to restrain him, he came at him from behind, he had time.

That said, I don't believe that he is sorry for what transpired, I don't believe that he thinks Jordans life had any value, but that's just my opinion at this time, it's open to change if more facts come to light that say different.

He's a Marine, trained to keep calm in crisis situations.

Why did he need to check the pulse when the other man was closer to JN's arms? I've never encountered a mentally-ill, violent stranger and I would have been paralyzed with fear.

JMO

 

[Rolypolyoly]

He's a Marine, trained to keep calm in crisis situations.

Why did he need to check the pulse when the other man was closer to JN's arms? I've never encountered a mentally-ill, violent stranger and I would have been paralyzed with fear.

JMO

I don't know, maybe because he was the one who caused him to no longer have one?.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I don't believe that he is sorry for what transpired, I don't believe that he thinks Jordans life had any value, but that's just my opinion at this time, it's open to change if more facts come to light that say different.

<RSBM>

I'm curious what evidence or information leads you to this conclusion about Penny?

 

[Rolypolyoly]

<RSBM>

I'm curious what evidence or information leads you to this conclusion about Penny?

Only the same evidence and information that leads to to the opposite conclusion.
My own eyes watching his behaviour in the video, his press release, witness recollections, so far I've only seen one person call him a hero and say they were terrified, and now his interview were he tells us all about what a sweet, loving human he is. How he loves his sisters and how living with all those women taught him to look at and consider other people's perspectives no matter his thoughts etc, over selling imo, I would rather he had just stayed quiet to be honest.

Just my interpretation of those things is all. I might be wrong, I might not.

That's why it's just my opinion.

 

[kittythehare]

Only the same evidence and information that leads to to the opposite conclusion.
My own eyes watching his behaviour in the video, his press release, witness recollections, so far I've only seen one person call him a hero and say they were terrified, and now his interview were he tells us all about what a sweet, loving human he is. How he loves his sisters and how living with all those women taught him to look at and consider other people's perspectives no matter his thoughts etc, over selling imo, I would rather he had just stayed quiet to be honest.

Just my interpretation of those things is all. I might be wrong, I might not.

That's why it's just my opinion.

well spoke.
i share your opinion without reservation.
we are entitled to our opinions.

 

[KooshBall]

How can anyone claim to know what was going on in DP's head, or how he feels about the victim? People are capable of feeling one thing inside themselves, while presenting a false bravado on the outside. In times of stress or conflict many people take charge and zone out of their feelings. During a mass shooting I, one of the biggest wimps there is, was the one who ended up gathering people in a corner, closing the door between us and the shooter, and picked up the glove I dropped in the middle of all that. I beat myself up a lot about picking up the glove, why did I do that? Why did it matter if I ever saw the glove again when I just saw a man shot right in front of me? Years later and I still have no idea. Nobody knows how serious JN was in his threats, what was going on in his head. No one knows what every witness felt in the moment. No one knows what DP's intensions or feelings are/were. You can think you know, but no one can know what is truly inside someone else's head and heart. I'm choosing to not judge either the victim, or the suspect, because I don't think either one was an evil person who woke up that day planning for this incident to happen, and more importantly, I wasn't there.

 

[10ofRods]

Curious how folks can all watch the same video and come away with completely different impressions of what we're seeing. I wonder if the witnesses on the train car that day are the same way? It'll be interesting if we ever get to hear from all of them, and how they all perceived the situation first hand.

In regards to the bolded:

You assume Penny's thoughts and intentions to be malicious and uncaring, while I assume them to be without malice and concerned for the safety of himself and his fellow passengers. I'm giving Penny the benefit of the doubt.

I think he genuinely tried to neutralize a threat of violence and it went terribly wrong.

jmo

Welcome to my world. It's a truism in anthropology that several of us can all visit someplace and get very different views. Studies of eyewitnesses show the same thing - sometimes varying in ways that make me scratch my head. We have various methods for accounting for this in our write-ups.

Simon and Chabris try a beginning explanation here:

You make an excellent point about why we want juries to be unanimous. You also go into the deeper motivations that each of us have, in making assessments.

Past experiences (e.g., sociocultural elements) play a huge role.

Some of us were raised in urban environments with lots of crime, and on the other end, we have the tourists from the hinterlands. I feel like I'm lost in NYC, which is part of the charm for a Los Angeleno. When I first started doing fieldwork outside the US, the hardest part is that my (supposedly broad) notions of human behavior failed to clue me in, to the little details that locals used to assess threat.

Of course, NYers often feel the same about L.A. If the 66 year old had never taken the train from Manhattan to where ever she's going, or had recently been assaulted, or had children who told her to NOT take the train and BE CAREFUL, her perceptions would be different (as opposed to people who took the train daily, were used to it - and weren't older, as an example). I don't think we can have our laws spin on the perspectives of an outlier (and that's why each state in our union has its version of the "reasonable person" standard, which I know you know about and I feel I'm belaboring.

I have been interviewing men for the past week, about this case, and have been surprised at what I'm hearing. All the men I interviewed are in higher ed, but so are the women I talked to - and there are very different perspectives.

I need to know how, and in what way, a ranting person on the subway is automatically a "threat." Where's the line? NY law uses the word "menace."

IMO.

 

[Allabouttrial]

Penny and the other men who had restrained JN ceased the restraint when he stopped resisting.

Or to put it another way - 'when he stopped breathing'

 

[Reasonable & Just]

Only the same evidence and information that leads to to the opposite conclusion.
My own eyes watching his behaviour in the video, his press release, witness recollections, so far I've only seen one person call him a hero and say they were terrified, and now his interview were he tells us all about what a sweet, loving human he is. How he loves his sisters and how living with all those women taught him to look at and consider other people's perspectives no matter his thoughts etc, over selling imo, I would rather he had just stayed quiet to be honest.

Just my interpretation of those things is all. I might be wrong, I might not.

That's why it's just my opinion.

I agree. He is not presenting himself well as a person of good judgement, and should stop talking. He does smack of overselling himself as a woman-friendly leader who killed a guy for yelling that he was hungry and thirsty, nonspecific threats, and whose physical action involved throwing a coat on the ground.

Also, using the term “comical” to refer to any aspect of this, talking about right before the incident he was planning to go to Africa - coupled with the video, none of this helps with a NY jury pool.

We’ll learn more about Penny during the trial - some good, and I predict some not so good. JMO.

 

[JennieM]

“I’m deeply saddened by the loss of life,” he said ” It’s tragic what happened to him."

Some genuine remorse for the part he played in taking someone's life and some accountability would have been nice to see.

This detached attitude and holding the incident at arm's length (the irony) will not serve him well.

Exclusive | Daniel Penny, charged in Jordan Neely death, breaks silence: ‘I am not a white supremacist’

“I’m deeply saddened by the loss of life,” Penny said ” It’s tragic what happened to him. Hopefully, we can change the system that’s so desperately failed us.&#8…

nypost.com

 

[MyBelle]

Or to put it another way - 'when he stopped breathing'

In the video I saw, JN was still breathing when Perry stood up because he moved his body. JN still had a pulse when the other guy took his pulse.

JMO

 

[10ofRods]

In the video I saw, JN was still breathing when Perry stood up because he moved his body. JN still had a pulse when the other guy took his pulse.

JMO

Agonal movements are not a sign of life and do not at all indicate that respiration is still occurring. As oxygen depletes from the blood, muscles have involuntary contractions. This can happen in death or sometimes, in fainting and, obviously in seizures. Many dying people suffer a form of seizure, although they are likely unaware of it (seizures disrupt brain function).

Neely jerks his leg, just like other people I've watched die (in hospitals and in films presented at conferences). But there's literature on how compression to the neck ends up with agonal movements. Hanging has the same effect; this was the same kind of compression, IMO. I hesitate to put links, because it's death science.

I was taught to look for Babinski's and other neurological signs of near-death when I did my own training in forensics (at a major hospital).

https://movementdisorders.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/mds.870070408

So, as the brain dies, there are certain movements (not universal) that are quite common - the leg movement is one of the most common (as are foot movements).

A better indicator is the moment when Neely urinated and defecated himself, as others have pointed out. That's the death of the brain stem, IMO. But each muscle group still has electricity - for a few seconds.

I was unable to observe breathing in Neely at the end (prior to when Penny stands up), or even in the middle of the video. I saw grimacing, but I don't think people in a death-inducing choke hold are likely to be able to breathe. I assume the poor jury will have to go through this frame by frame.

(Actually, I think Penny will plead out to get the minimum sentence).

IMO.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I agree. He is not presenting himself well as a person of good judgement, and should stop talking. He does smack of overselling himself as a woman-friendly leader who killed a guy for yelling that he was hungry and thirsty, nonspecific threats, and whose physical action involved throwing a coat on the ground.

Also, using the term “comical” to refer to any aspect of this, talking about right before the incident he was planning to go to Africa - coupled with the video, none of this helps with a NY jury pool.

We’ll learn more about Penny during the trial - some good, and I predict some not so good. JMO.

Please clarify what you mean here? None of this has been mentioned previously so I'm at a loss to what you're referring to.

 

[MyBelle]

Welcome to my world. It's a truism in anthropology that several of us can all visit someplace and get very different views. Studies of eyewitnesses show the same thing - sometimes varying in ways that make me scratch my head. We have various methods for accounting for this in our write-ups.

Simon and Chabris try a beginning explanation here:

You make an excellent point about why we want juries to be unanimous. You also go into the deeper motivations that each of us have, in making assessments.

Past experiences (e.g., sociocultural elements) play a huge role.

Some of us were raised in urban environments with lots of crime, and on the other end, we have the tourists from the hinterlands. I feel like I'm lost in NYC, which is part of the charm for a Los Angeleno. When I first started doing fieldwork outside the US, the hardest part is that my (supposedly broad) notions of human behavior failed to clue me in, to the little details that locals used to assess threat.

Of course, NYers often feel the same about L.A. If the 66 year old had never taken the train from Manhattan to where ever she's going, or had recently been assaulted, or had children who told her to NOT take the train and BE CAREFUL, her perceptions would be different (as opposed to people who took the train daily, were used to it - and weren't older, as an example). I don't think we can have our laws spin on the perspectives of an outlier (and that's why each state in our union has its version of the "reasonable person" standard, which I know you know about and I feel I'm belaboring.

I have been interviewing men for the past week, about this case, and have been surprised at what I'm hearing. All the men I interviewed are in higher ed, but so are the women I talked to - and there are very different perspectives.

I need to know how, and in what way, a ranting person on the subway is automatically a "threat." Where's the line? NY law uses the word "menace."

IMO.

I doubt anybody "automatically" thought he was a "threat" until he started to rant about "bullets" and was threatening people. His aunt has said he was schizophrenic and another news article said he abused drugs so it is possible he may have been on drugs when he boarded the subway. So much of this case we still don't know. I think that is because Bragg intends to convene a grand jury or already has done so.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Agonal movements are not a sign of life and do not at all indicate that respiration is still occurring. As oxygen depletes from the blood, muscles have involuntary contractions. This can happen in death or sometimes, in fainting and, obviously in seizures. Many dying people suffer a form of seizure, although they are likely unaware of it (seizures disrupt brain function).

Neely jerks his leg, just like other people I've watched die (in hospitals and in films presented at conferences). But there's literature on how compression to the neck ends up with agonal movements. Hanging has the same effect; this was the same kind of compression, IMO. I hesitate to put links, because it's death science.

I was taught to look for Babinski's and other neurological signs of near-death when I did my own training in forensics (at a major hospital).

https://movementdisorders.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/mds.870070408

So, as the brain dies, there are certain movements (not universal) that are quite common - the leg movement is one of the most common (as are foot movements).

A better indicator is the moment when Neely urinated and defecated himself, as others have pointed out. That's the death of the brain stem, IMO. But each muscle group still has electricity - for a few seconds.

I was unable to observe breathing in Neely at the end (prior to when Penny stands up), or even in the middle of the video. I saw grimacing, but I don't think people in a death-inducing choke hold are likely to be able to breathe. I assume the poor jury will have to go through this frame by frame.

(Actually, I think Penny will plead out to get the minimum sentence).

IMO.

I'm not a physician. I based my opinion on what I saw in the video.

I don't believe Penny will plead out.

JMO

 

[10ofRods]

I doubt anybody "automatically" thought he was a "threat" until he started to rant about "bullets" and was threatening people. His aunt has said he was schizophrenic and another news article said he abused drugs so it is possible he may have been on drugs when he boarded the subway. So much of this case we still don't know. I think that is because Bragg intends to convene a grand jury or already has done so.

JMO

Oh wow - well, I'll be watching with interest. I know I've already posted that in my training (ER-based), doctors of all specialties told me they could not immediately distinguish between various psychoses (including schizophrenia) and drug-induced psychosis. I assume the autopsy will reveal something about that - if it matters. NY law still holds that a person has to "menace" an individual. It could actually be both schizophrenia and drug use.

Did he threaten actual individuals?

IMO.

 

[kittythehare]

Anger grows over NYC subway choking of Michael Jackson impersonator

Jordan Neely was tackled by fellow passengers and put in a fatal chokehold by a former Marine after shouting at people inside a subway car

english.elpais.com

image here of paramedics administering CPR, they don't appear in need of assistance.

 

[10ofRods]

I'm not a physician. I based my opinion on what I saw in the video.

I don't believe Penny will plead out.

JMO

Maybe he will if he's offered the minimum sentence (1 year but with possibility of parole is how I read the sentencing for 2nd degree manslaughter).

Because the maximum sentence if convicted of the charges as they stand is up to 15 years. Also, he has the funds for a good lawyer. IMO.

But you may be right. He looks like a determined individual. He may also want a trial (for many different reasons).

IMO.