NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

[Ontario Mom]

BBM. No, it was a two sentence post in which I asked a question because I don’t actually know whether he was threatening the people on the train or not, and maybe new info has come out about what he was up to that day.

I do know from experience around dysregulated people that they may be brooding over what folks at the SS office or human services or the police or the grocery store person may have said two hours ago, and their problem is generally not with me, so I don’t choke them from behind with the assumption that they’ll kill me.

I get wary around them and am prepared to defend myself and others if attacked, but I don’t consider myself entitled to just kill dysregulated people for yelling and throwing a jacket on the ground, especially if someone is telling me to stop with the choking and if there are 2 other capable people nearby to assist in detaining them until law enforcement can assist.

I am inclined to believe DP did not consider himself entitled to kill anyone, as you've implied, or that he ever intended any such thing.

"When Mr. Neely began aggressively threatening Daniel Penny and the other passengers, Daniel, with the help of others, acted to protect themselves, until help arrived," lawyers for Penny said in a statement Friday evening. "Daniel never intended to harm Mr. Neely and could not have foreseen his untimely death." Marine who put Jordan Neely into chokehold on subway acted in self-defense, lawyers say

 

[Reasonable & Just]

I am inclined to believe DP did not consider himself entitled to kill anyone, as you've implied, or that he ever intended any such thing.

"When Mr. Neely began aggressively threatening Daniel Penny and the other passengers, Daniel, with the help of others, acted to protect themselves, until help arrived," lawyers for Penny said in a statement Friday evening. "Daniel never intended to harm Mr. Neely and could not have foreseen his untimely death." Marine who put Jordan Neely into chokehold on subway acted in self-defense, lawyers say

He came up behind the man. He kept going when others cautioned him to stop. He kept going when 2 other men were available to help restrain him. He gave himself permission to continue with deadly action. Under no circumstances should you be messing with someone's air supply/blood supply if you have a different option. He began a dangerous action when (to our knowledge) he was not directly threatened, and he kept it going when he could have stopped. That strikes me as entitlement.

ETA - and all over a thrown jacket and shouting (as of now). Why didn't Penny stop? He sounds at least as out of control as Mr. Neely was. So where does it end? Could someone have justifiably killed Penny because he was proving himself to be a menace?

 

[Ontario Mom]

He came up behind the man. He kept going when others cautioned him to stop. He kept going when 2 other men were available to help restrain him. He gave himself permission to continue with deadly action. Under no circumstances should you be messing with someone's air supply/blood supply if you have a different option. He began a dangerous action when (to our knowledge) he was not directly threatened, and he kept it going when he could have stopped. That strikes me as entitlement.

We couldn't possibly disagree more, but thank you for taking the time to explain why you see it that way.
I do appreciated that.

 

[shotgun09]

One has to wonder just where the 49 other 'top 50' on the watch list are. And, who is doing the watching? And, why did they fail while "watching" Mr Neely?

Could it be?? Because some might look bad to the people of their city, they might have jumped on the "let's get the good Samaritan" train to take the focus off their own failures?
No.....said the three monkeys.

In the meantime, since I more than likely cannot bring my treasured antique rusted iron -but expertly sharpened... pitchfork on any train, I will state that I would be proud to ride on one with Daniel Penny, if the opportunity came to pass.

MOO and Peace

 

[Reasonable & Just]

We couldn't possibly disagree more, but thank you for taking the time to explain why you see it that way.
I do appreciated that.

Thank you, and if you or anyone has an explanation for him to keep going with lethal force (I am not a former Marine Sergeant, yet I know it's dangerous to go anywhere near people's necks) when people are asking him to stop AND there are 2 other adults assisting with restraint, I am genuinely open to hearing it.

BTW this does not excuse NYC's mental health response in any way. Mr. Neely shouldn't have been out and about, but Mr. Penny may well be just as disturbed in his own way. Time will tell.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Thank you, and if you or anyone has an explanation for him to keep going with lethal force (I am not a former Marine Sergeant, yet I know it's dangerous to go anywhere near people's necks) when people are asking him to stop AND there are 2 other adults assisting with restraint, I am genuinely open to hearing it.

BTW this does not excuse NYC's mental health response in any way. Mr. Neely shouldn't have been out and about, but Mr. Penny may well be just as disturbed in his own way. Time will tell.

There is literally no one who can answer that for you or any of us, except Mr. Penny himself, as everyone else's answer will just be their opinion. Heck, I'd guess at this point even he doesn't even know this happened. End of the day, I think it was a tragic, terrible, accidental death.

 

[10ofRods]

Exactly. There is a difference between someone you don't know knocking on your front door (whether it's during the day or the middle of the night) and someone acting threatening/belligerent in a subway car - where you're effectively stuck until your stop; as previously mentioned, this issue could hold true even if you go to another car, etc.

I posted a while back on the recent horrific tragedy in which an elderly man shot & seriously injured a young man he didn't know who was knocking on his door (it was the wrong address). And, I mentioned that in cases like this - all of us have the option to not open the door & ignore the person, and eventually they may get the picture and leave (that's been the ultimate outcome with me). I.e., when you're in the safety of your own home with a wooden/metal door between you & someone unknown, you're typically not in immediate danger. Going along with this, you can obviously call the authorities if you feel the person is a threat & is trying to break into the home. Also - if they are actively trying to break your door down and/or get into the house via another way - yes, it's evident that you definitely hae a justifiable concern for your safety.

However - IMHO if you're on a subway car/movie theater, etc. (i.e., an enclosed space) with someone acting belligerent/making threatening comments/etc. - IMHO the danger to you & others is more immediate. To a different extent, you're also exposed when you're in a not-so-enclosed public space with other people, i.e. a mall/shopping center/etc. Just look at what's been happening all over the country with all of this mass violence in public places.

So, I'd appreciate you addressing the other examples. Like classrooms and ER's. And all the other places that we encounter bad actors but cannot be armed nor are there easy solutions.

BTW, home invasions start with someone at your door or window and the perps don't just go away if you ignore them. Just saying. We all wish that were the solution, where I live. Over the years, I've also known quite a few people (all women, actually) who had hot prowlers - they woke up and there was a man in their room. And I worked in a state hospital for the criminally insane where the hot prowlers who turned serial rapists were stored away. So yeah, there are various dangerous things that approach our private space and people at the front door at night are not my friends.

There are homeless people living on the campus where I work. One was knife wielding just 3 weeks ago. This is not a subway-specific problem, is my point.

I think we are all entitled to our opinions about danger, but I'll just drop a couple of links:

Homicide Rate per 100,000 Residents – NYC – Mayor's Office of Criminal Justice

criminaljustice.cityofnewyork.us

Crime Analysis: New York is 5th safest large city in the US
^Check out the lists of safest and least safe cities.

And, further, NY's crime rate has dropped two years in a row (including subway crime). But undated viral videos and clickbait headlines are at play, as well. Meanwhile, some other places have seen much larger upticks in subway crime.

IMO.

 

[Deleted member 287549]

So, I'd appreciate you addressing the other examples. Like classrooms and ER's. And all the other places that we encounter bad actors but cannot be armed nor are there easy solutions.

BTW, home invasions start with someone at your door or window and the perps don't just go away if you ignore them. Just saying. We all wish that were the solution, where I live. Over the years, I've also known quite a few people (all women, actually) who had hot prowlers - they woke up and there was a man in their room. And I worked in a state hospital for the criminally insane where the hot prowlers who turned serial rapists were stored away. So yeah, there are various dangerous things that approach our private space and people at the front door at night are not my friends.

There are homeless people living on the campus where I work. One was knife wielding just 3 weeks ago. This is not a subway-specific problem, is my point.

Yes - these are all good points. I agree with all of this. You're right, being in an E.R. & a school, etc. could be dangerous as well.

You're also 100% correct that criminals/perps. could & do break into people's homes. And, yes - they may preface this by knocking on the door ahead of time - I know this happens as well.

I myself have had my home burglarized (years ago), but it wasn't a home invasion - since I was @ work when this happened & only discovered this when I got home. However, home invasions are obviously exponentially worse & much scarier, given that the perps. know the resident(s) are home ATT.

That all being said & shifting gears - IMHO the reason this particular case resonates so much with many of us is that it's so relatable. I.e., many of us take/have taken public transportation & had to deal with potential dangers from unhinged homeless people.

 

[kittythehare]

Helping the family of Jordan Neely cope with the violent death of a loved one is, sadly, nothing new for Rev. Dr. Johnnie M. Green Jr.

The Harlem pastor delivered the eulogy for Neely’s mother, who was murdered by her boyfriend 16 years ago.

Now he is arranging the funeral for her son, killed in a chokehold on a Manhattan subway train on May 1

“Jordan should not be dead now, because he wasn’t attacking anybody on the subway,” the pastor said. “He was literally doing what he did as a homeless person and he was simply stating that he was hungry and that he had some issues that demanded medical attention.

“Murder is not the answer for mental illness. You don’t publicly assassinate an individual for being mentally unbalanced.”

For family of Jordan Neely, grief is all too familiar, says NYC pastor offering them ‘words of hope’ ｜ New York Daily News

Helping the family of Jordan Neely cope with the violent death of a loved one is, sadly, nothing new for Rev. Dr. Johnnie M. Green Jr. The Harlem pastor delivered the eulogy for Neely’s mother, who was murdered by her boyfriend 16 years ago. Now he is arranging the funeral for her son, killed in...

nordot.app

 

[Ontario Mom]

Helping the family of Jordan Neely cope with the violent death of a loved one is, sadly, nothing new for Rev. Dr. Johnnie M. Green Jr.

The Harlem pastor delivered the eulogy for Neely’s mother, who was murdered by her boyfriend 16 years ago.

Now he is arranging the funeral for her son, killed in a chokehold on a Manhattan subway train on May 1

“Jordan should not be dead now, because he wasn’t attacking anybody on the subway,” the pastor said. “He was literally doing what he did as a homeless person and he was simply stating that he was hungry and that he had some issues that demanded medical attention.

“Murder is not the answer for mental illness. You don’t publicly assassinate an individual for being mentally unbalanced.”

For family of Jordan Neely, grief is all too familiar, says NYC pastor offering them ‘words of hope’ ｜ New York Daily News

Helping the family of Jordan Neely cope with the violent death of a loved one is, sadly, nothing new for Rev. Dr. Johnnie M. Green Jr. The Harlem pastor delivered the eulogy for Neely’s mother, who was murdered by her boyfriend 16 years ago. Now he is arranging the funeral for her son, killed in...

nordot.app

Yep, he was just "simply" stating he was hungry wanted medical attention.
That's why passengers felt threatened and 3 guys felt the need to step up and restrain him.
Because he was hungry. For crying out loud. That's just a flat out lie. Shame on the pastor for that.

Also, he was not murdered nor was he assasinated. That's just emotional spin.
It was an accidental death due to recklessness in the heat of the moment.
Penny's charge of 2nd degree manslaughter makes that perfectly clear.

While I agree Jordan Neely should not be dead, it'd be nice if folks just tell the truth instead of trying to spin it into something it's not.

 

[JonahPennington]

We need to educate ourselves on how to respond appropriately to these situations to prevent further tragedies like this. It's also crucial to be aware of the early signs of schizophrenia, so we can identify it and provide proper care before it escalates to a crisis. Let's work together to raise awareness and support those who are struggling with mental health issues.

 

[Sundog]

Yep, he was just "simply" stating he was hungry wanted medical attention.
That's why passengers felt threatened and 3 guys felt the need to step up and restrain him.
Because he was hungry. For crying out loud. That's just a flat out lie. Shame on the pastor for that.

Also, he was not murdered nor was he assasinated. That's just emotional spin.
It was an accidental death due to recklessness in the heat of the moment.
Penny's charge of 2nd degree manslaughter makes that perfectly clear.

While I agree Jordan Neely should not be dead, it'd be nice if folks just tell the truth instead of trying to spin it into something it's not.

Well said.

 

[Sundog]

We need to educate ourselves on how to respond appropriately to these situations to prevent further tragedies like this. It's also crucial to be aware of the early signs of schizophrenia, so we can identify it and provide proper care before it escalates to a crisis. Let's work together to raise awareness and support those who are struggling with mental health issues.

We also need effective self-protection training to deal with these kinds of situations which are growing exponentially in our cities.

 

[MissMalowe]

I don't know what the correct solution to the problem would be or how to get there, but the general public who are minding their own business and just going about their day should be able to go about their daily business, public transport, etc without issue. And as I touched on in my previous post, expecting or asking the general untrained, inexperienced, non-mental health professional public to identify and diagnose complex mental health issues and choose the appropriate form of action (or inaction) on a whim and in a moment, is a big ask. Even asking Police to do this, which they are now very often responsible for, is a big ask.

I'm not suggesting putting someone into a chokehold until they're dead is appropriate, but on the opposite end of that, shrugging everything off as just a 100% harmless person in the acute phase of an episode of psychosis also probably wouldn't be wise.

 

[elevatorific]

We also need effective self-protection training to deal with these kinds of situations which are growing exponentially in our cities.

Except in the NY subway system where it's declining of course.

NYC subway crime plunges by 21.5%

The NYPD announced on Tuesday that subway crime is down 21.5% from the same time last year with every category of serious felonies down to levels not seen since the mid-1990s.

www.dailymail.co.uk

We would benefit from better media literacy, to counter the sort of sensationalism that causes undue panic and poor risk assessment.

 

[Sillybilly]

Yep, he was just "simply" stating he was hungry wanted medical attention.
That's why passengers felt threatened and 3 guys felt the need to step up and restrain him.
Because he was hungry. For crying out loud. That's just a flat out lie. Shame on the pastor for that.

Also, he was not murdered nor was he assasinated. That's just emotional spin.
It was an accidental death due to recklessness in the heat of the moment.
Penny's charge of 2nd degree manslaughter makes that perfectly clear.

While I agree Jordan Neely should not be dead, it'd be nice if folks just tell the truth instead of trying to spin it into something it's not.

IMO, Neely's death was not accidental. Penny, as a former marine, is now Joe Citizen who came up behind Neely with intent to conduct the chokehold. He is charged with 2nd degree manslaughter which is classified as homicide which is the killing of a human being by another human being.

IIRC, Neely was ranting that he was homeless, hungry and thirsty. I'm still unclear and can't locate the actual wording of the MFer threat. To my knowledge he did not physically touch anyone and IMO did not deserve to be killed because he was having a mental health crisis.

From what I can gather, had he lived, the only thing Neely himself could have been guilty of is menacing in the the 3rd degree (possibly 2nd degree if he was known to be carrying a weapon or stalking someone).

New York Consolidated Laws, Penal Law - PEN § 120.15 | FindLaw

New York Penal Law PEN NY PENAL Section 120.15. Read the code on FindLaw

codes.findlaw.com

New York Consolidated Laws, Penal Law - PEN § 120.14 | FindLaw

New York Penal Law PEN NY PENAL Section 120.14. Read the code on FindLaw

codes.findlaw.com

JMO

Even NYPD is banned from using chokeholds and a Supreme Court ruling in May 2022 upheld the previously existing ban on chokeholds.

New York Supreme Court ruling reinstates law banning police officers from using chokeholds during arrests

 

[Sundog]

IMO, Neely's death was not accidental. Penny, as a former marine, is now Joe Citizen who came up behind Neely with intent to conduct the chokehold. He is charged with 2nd degree manslaughter which is classified as homicide which is the killing of a human being by another human being.

<snipped for focus>

Second degree manslaughter charge indicates that the criminal justice system in New York City, i.e. the District Attorney Alvin Braggs, has determined that the killing of Neely was not intentional.

Sounds accidental to me.


Edited to add - OP's post was snipped for focus

 

[Sillybilly]

Second degree manslaughter charge indicates that the criminal justice system in New York City, i.e. the District Attorney Alvin Braggs, has determined that the killing of Neely was not intentional.

Sounds accidental to me.

JMO

Doesn't have to be intentional to constitute "reckless" as set out in the NY code linked in my post.

Neely didn't slip on a banana peel. Of the 5 MODs (natural, accidental, suicide, homicide, undetermined, pending), IMO an ME (taking both physical findings and relevant knowledge into account) will only be able to classify the MOD as homicide, meaning at the hand of another.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Justifiable Homicide - The Litvak Law Firm

Justifiable Homicide Is A Non-Criminal Legal Ruling That Involves The Taking Of Another Person’s Life Under Very Specific Circumstances That Justify The Action, Meaning To Prove It To Be Right, Just, Or Reasonable.

nyccrimelawyer.com

For a homicide to be justified, or blameless, the defense must show that it was reasonable for the defendant to believe that they, or another person, were in imminent and otherwise unavoidable danger of grave bodily harm or death by the deceased when the homicide was committed. A caveat to this is that the deceased was threatening to bring harm to the innocent, whether that was the defendant or the person they were protecting.

 

[Ontario Mom]

IMO, Neely's death was not accidental. Penny, as a former marine, is now Joe Citizen who came up behind Neely with intent to conduct the chokehold. He is charged with 2nd degree manslaughter which is classified as homicide which is the killing of a human being by another human being.

IIRC, Neely was ranting that he was homeless, hungry and thirsty. I'm still unclear and can't locate the actual wording of the MFer threat. To my knowledge he did not physically touch anyone and IMO did not deserve to be killed because he was having a mental health crisis.

From what I can gather, had he lived, the only thing Neely himself could have been guilty of is menacing in the the 3rd degree (possibly 2nd degree if he was known to be carrying a weapon or stalking someone).

New York Consolidated Laws, Penal Law - PEN § 120.15 | FindLaw

New York Penal Law PEN NY PENAL Section 120.15. Read the code on FindLaw

codes.findlaw.com

New York Consolidated Laws, Penal Law - PEN § 120.14 | FindLaw

New York Penal Law PEN NY PENAL Section 120.14. Read the code on FindLaw

codes.findlaw.com

JMO

Even NYPD is banned from using chokeholds and a Supreme Court ruling in May 2022 upheld the previously existing ban on chokeholds.

New York Supreme Court ruling reinstates law banning police officers from using chokeholds during arrests

The legal wording is "recklessly" causing the death of another person, according to the 2nd degree manslaughter charge he's now facing.

I used the word accidentally because I believe Mr. Neely's death was accidental (an unfortunate incident that happens unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury) due to the heat of the moment, the very recklessness the charge describes. I don't believe for a moment the death was intentional, which would carry a murder charge, and that's what he's been falsely accused of here and elsewhere, over and over.

The restraint was intentional, the death was not.

I've not seen anyone here or elsewhere saying the man deserved to be killed, so I'm not even sure why that keeps coming up. Of course he didn't deserve to be killed, even if it wasn't a mental health crisis he was having.

“He said, ‘I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet, I’ll go to jail’ because he would kill people on the train,” the woman said of Neely. “He said, ‘I would kill a motherf—er. I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet. I’ll go to jail.’” The retiree said Penny did not initially engage with Neely during the wild rant until things got out of hand and he felt the urge to step in. Witness says she went back to ‘thank’ Daniel Penny after Jordan Neely chokehold death, is ‘praying’ for him