NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

[kittythehare]

I was being sarcastic.
He may have been on a list, but no one was looking out for this guy.

Didn't spot the sarcasm or I wouldn't have responded.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Does anyone know the response time by LE to the subway car?

From wikipedia "The New York Police Department received a call about a fight on the train at 2:27 p.m., and arrived before 2:30 p.m., administering first aid to an unconscious Neely.[2][28][34] The New York City Fire Department received its call for help at 2:39 p.m., arriving at 2:46 p.m.. At least five 9-1-1 calls were made, with some initial reports describing a homeless man that some found to be threatening in his mannerisms and volume.[35]"

Links go to New York Times, CNN, NBC all archived from their original reports.

 

[IceIce9]

From wikipedia "The New York Police Department received a call about a fight on the train at 2:27 p.m., and arrived before 2:30 p.m., administering first aid to an unconscious Neely.[2][28][34] The New York City Fire Department received its call for help at 2:39 p.m., arriving at 2:46 p.m.. At least five 9-1-1 calls were made, with some initial reports describing a homeless man that some found to be threatening in his mannerisms and volume.[35]"

Links go to New York Times, CNN, NBC all archived from their original reports.

Interesting that multiple people felt so unsafe and threatened by Neely that they called 911.

 

[maconrich]

Interesting that multiple people felt so unsafe and threatened by Neely that they called 911.

Interesting how quickly NYPD and the fire department got to the scene. Fast enough that professional assistance would have arrived and handled the situation without anyone being killed.

Edited to add: at least one would hope no one would have been killed.

 

[PrairieWind]

rsbm

What's interesting about this is that if Neely had a concealed knife or sharp object, and if he had stabbed and killed Penny while Penny had him in a chokehold and unable to retreat, that would be a legally justified act by Neely.

Lots of people don't like Duty to Retreat because it doesn't sound as big and tough as Stand Your Ground, but this is exactly the sort of unnecessary escalation and confrontation it is meant to avoid.

imo

That would not likely be justified.

 

[everybodhi]

Interesting that multiple people felt so unsafe and threatened by Neely that they called 911.

While the wiki link says “some initial reports describing a homeless man that some found to be threatening in his mannerisms and volume”, that report doesn’t account for all five of the 911 calls.
I would have called 911 to report a distressed man being held in a choke hold by a passenger, to try to stop the manslaughter.
I don’t call 911 every time I encounter a person in obvious mental distress, even if I feel threatened by “mannerisms and volume”, but I certainly will call when I see someone being killed.
There are too many deaths of people in mental distress by police for me to feel turning to them for help is a good option.
The prosecution has those calls and interviews with witnesses, they made a judgement to arrest Perry and present the evidence to a grand jury, we only have an unidentified “report” by the media of the nature of some of the calls.
The wiki link also says police arrived “before 2:30” in response to a 2:27 call about “a fight on the train”, and found the unconscious victim. The fire department received a call at 2:39.
It appears by the timeline Neely had been restrained in a chokehold for well over 10 minutes, at least, when these calls were made, so any “mannerisms and volume” that made people feel threatened had long passed.
Logic implies they weren’t calling to report a threat by Neely while he fought a losing battle for his life against someone bigger, stronger, and trained to kill, they were calling to report a “fight”, an attack from behind, that he had no chance of winning.

 

[everybodhi]

That would not likely be justified.

It also did not happen, there was no weapon, just a lot of what-ifs.
We don’t know who around us is armed, we can’t justify killing in self defense based on a “what-if” they are armed.

 

[elevatorific]

That would not likely be justified.

Actually in New York it would almost certainly be justified.

 

[JennieM]

Sorry if this has already been discussed. Once Penny rendered Neely unconscious and realised that he'd gone too far, did he try to help Neely? Did he try to revive him? Did he give him first aid? Surely as a marine, that would be part of his skillset?

 

[kittythehare]

While the wiki link says “some initial reports describing a homeless man that some found to be threatening in his mannerisms and volume”, that report doesn’t account for all five of the 911 calls.
I would have called 911 to report a distressed man being held in a choke hold by a passenger, to try to stop the manslaughter.
I don’t call 911 every time I encounter a person in obvious mental distress, even if I feel threatened by “mannerisms and volume”, but I certainly will call when I see someone being killed.
There are too many deaths of people in mental distress by police for me to feel turning to them for help is a good option.
The prosecution has those calls and interviews with witnesses, they made a judgement to arrest Perry and present the evidence to a grand jury, we only have an unidentified “report” by the media of the nature of some of the calls.
The wiki link also says police arrived “before 2:30” in response to a 2:27 call about “a fight on the train”, and found the unconscious victim. The fire department received a call at 2:39.
It appears by the timeline Neely had been restrained in a chokehold for well over 10 minutes, at least, when these calls were made, so any “mannerisms and volume” that made people feel threatened had long passed.
Logic implies they weren’t calling to report a threat by Neely while he fought a losing battle for his life against someone bigger, stronger, and trained to kill, they were calling to report a “fight”, an attack from behind, that he had no chance of winning.

Good points, well made.
Glad somebody actually investigated the media's role in the ensuing frenzy.
The early reports are not to be trusted

How The Media Made A Villain Out Of Jordan Neely

Anonymous police sources quickly set the narrative after Daniel Penny put Neely in a deadly chokehold on the subway.

www.huffpost.com

 

[JennieM]

Daniel Penny released on $100k bond for death of Jordan Neely

Penny will today hand himself into the NYPD and is due to be arraigned on a second degree manslaughter charge which he and his supporters say is unwarranted.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[JennieM]

Just standing and looking.

 

[Sundog]

View attachment 422680

Daniel Penny released on $100k bond for death of Jordan Neely

Penny will today hand himself into the NYPD and is due to be arraigned on a second degree manslaughter charge which he and his supporters say is unwarranted.

www.dailymail.co.uk

'He said, "I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet, I’ll go to jail" because he would kill people on the train.

'He said ‘I would kill a motherf***er. I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet. I’ll go to jail.'


Tragic situation, but passengers on that subway car were terrified for their lives.

 

[elevatorific]

Just standing and looking.

The others tried to do something sort of resembling a recovery position, maybe with good intentions though done incorrectly (worth noting so other people don't get the wrong idea about what a proper and effective recovery position would like).

Penny looks around for his hat, reaches under the seats near the guy filming, picks it up, puts it on, stands and looks.

 

[JennieM]

Why is he not turned on his back? Why are they not trying to help him and SAVE him?


Our Core Values are Honor, Courage and Commitment, and if you are to become one of us, they will be the values you live by and fight with as well. They are the building blocks that will aid you in making the right decisions at the right time, both on the battlefield and in our Nation's communities.

https://www.marines.com/

 

[JennieM]

'He said, "I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet, I’ll go to jail" because he would kill people on the train.

'He said ‘I would kill a motherf***er. I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet. I’ll go to jail.'


Tragic situation, but passengers on that subway car were terrified for their lives.

He said, he said, but Penny did, he did, he did kill him.

 

[IceIce9]

'He said, "I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet, I’ll go to jail" because he would kill people on the train.

'He said ‘I would kill a motherf***er. I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet. I’ll go to jail.'


Tragic situation, but passengers on that subway car were terrified for their lives.

This is why multiple people called 911 to report threatening behavior from Neely.

A tragic situation all around. It also would have been tragic if no one stepped forward and Neely had made good on his threats and killed one or more of the innocent passengers.

 

[kittythehare]

'He said, "I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet, I’ll go to jail" because he would kill people on the train.

'He said ‘I would kill a motherf***er. I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet. I’ll go to jail.'


Tragic situation, but passengers on that subway car were terrified for their lives.

and Huffington Post investigated all those reports

I'll be taking them with a large pinch of salt until such time as DA confirms any of them.

 

[kittythehare]

Why is he not turned on his back? Why are they not trying to help him and SAVE him?


Our Core Values are Honor, Courage and Commitment, and if you are to become one of us, they will be the values you live by and fight with as well. They are the building blocks that will aid you in making the right decisions at the right time, both on the battlefield and in our Nation's communities.

https://www.marines.com/

I think it was too late at that stage, the thrashing of his limbs looked to me to be signs of death throes.

Thing is, he could have been immobilised by holding one of his legs, not rocket science.
I wouldn't advise anybody to use a choke hold as a first action when they feel they need to immobilise another person.

 

[elevatorific]

'He said, "I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet, I’ll go to jail" because he would kill people on the train.

'He said ‘I would kill a motherf***er. I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet. I’ll go to jail.'


Tragic situation, but passengers on that subway car were terrified for their lives.

Her feelings are valid. All of the witnesses will have an opportunity to provide testimony, I'm sure.
The problem is none of that would explain why we see deadly force being applied on a subway car stopped at a station with its doors open. Very concerning for Penny's case who failed to fulfill his lawful duty to retreat.