NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

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  • #601
They did voice concerns. Did you watch the video? It's in the video.

Additionally, a passenger "tried to pour water on Neely’s head, but Penny came up to him and told him to stop." Here's a link about that and about how Penny prevented others from trying to help.
I've watched it only once, and heard one guy (off camera) say something like "turn him man" (paraphrasing) but that was all. Can you link directly to the video and the time stamp where other passengers voiced concerns?
 
  • #602
They did voice concerns. Did you watch the video? It's in the video.

Additionally, a passenger "tried to pour water on Neely’s head, but Penny came up to him and told him to stop." Here's a link about that and about how Penny prevented others from trying to help.
Moo..were they scared to challenge Mr Penny? They could of attempted to break his hold, or just tell him that's enough, guess they didn't care either way....moo
 
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  • #603
They did voice concerns. Did you watch the video? It's in the video.

Additionally, a passenger "tried to pour water on Neely’s head, but Penny came up to him and told him to stop." Here's a link about that and about how Penny prevented others from trying to help.
The MSM link only says that a person tried to pour water over Penny's head and Penny asked him to stop. I didn't see anything about how Penny prevented others from trying to help. In fact, just the opposite. This witness says that he told the group to move Neely onto his side, and then they did.
 
  • #604
I've watched it only once, and heard one guy (off camera) say something like "turn him man" (paraphrasing) but that was all. Can you link directly to the video and the time stamp where other passengers voiced concerns?
“You’re gonna kill him now”
“If you suffocate him, that’s it. You don’t want to catch a murder charge.”
And also a line about how he's defecated himself, warning them to stop.
Full video here:
 
  • #605
dbm

The MSM link only says that a person tried to pour water over Penny's head and Penny asked him to stop. I didn't see anything about how Penny prevented others from trying to help. In fact, just the opposite. This witness says that he told the group to move Neely onto his side, and then they did.
<modsnip>

Grima said he tried to pour water on Neely’s head, but Penny came up to him and told him to stop.

“He got over him and said, ‘Stop,’” Grima told CNN. “I should have been more on it, man, and not walked away, but I did. And they were telling people that he still had a pulse and he was breathing, alright? So like, that’s why I think people really weren’t trying.”

Grima said Penny was “commanding” and stood over Neely “until basically the police came.”
 
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  • #606
<modsnip>

Grima said he tried to pour water on Neely’s head, but Penny came up to him and told him to stop.

“He got over him and said, ‘Stop,’” Grima told CNN. “I should have been more on it, man, and not walked away, but I did. And they were telling people that he still had a pulse and he was breathing, alright? So like, that’s why I think people really weren’t trying.”

Grima said Penny was “commanding” and stood over Neely “until basically the police came.”

<modsnip> what I posted in response is substantiated by the article. Grima, the witness was asked not to pour water over Mr. Neely's head. That was the only action of Grima's or anyone else reported in that article who was prevented from taking any action.
 
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  • #607
The MSM link only says that a person tried to pour water over Penny's head and Penny asked him to stop. I didn't see anything about how Penny prevented others from trying to help. In fact, just the opposite. This witness says that he told the group to move Neely onto his side, and then they did.
What on earth would be the point of pouring water on JN's head? Penny was no longer holding JN in a chokehold. Grima said they did turn him onto his side at his suggestion but he doesn't explain his reasoning for pouring water.

Grima said he took photos of Neely because he thought he was still alive and posted them to his Instagram account. He talked with a detective on Friday and provided the photos, he told CNN.
 
  • #608
I did read the article, and what I posted in response is substantiated by the article. Grima, the witness was asked not to pour water over Mr. Neely's head. That was the only action of Grima's or anyone else reported in that article who was prevented from taking any action.
My comment was in response to the post asking why the other passengers didn't try to help Neely. The answer is right here: "They were telling people that he still had a pulse and he was breathing, alright? So like, that’s why I think people really weren’t trying.”
 
  • #609
It appears to me that maybe people were scared that day and maybe some did know this man's history. To try to minimize their feelings in that moment seems pointless.

At the end of the day I feel Penny went too far, even if there was justification to restrain him, which there could well have been but we haven't heard from all the witnesses' only what we've seen in MSM.
 
  • #610
Just one witness actually. That's the same elderly woman.
And the sardine can like environment is verifiably untrue given that most of the attack took place in an empty train at the station.

Also from your link -

CNN and other news sources refer to Jordan Neely as a harmless "Michael Jackson impersonator" without ever reporting on the fact that New Yorkers warned each other about his violent behavior for years.

And -

"The people on that train, we were scared. We were scared for our lives," said the woman. It was when Neely mentioned "killing" and "bullets" that Penny stepped in.

And -

The witness defended Penny, indicating that he intervened only when he saw no other option to ensure the safety of his fellow passengers. Even after the altercation that tragically ended Neely's life, Penny didn't flee but waited for the police, visibly shaken and distressed.

bbm

He didn't look visibly shaken and distressed to me in that video, unless you count him moving Neely and scrambling under the seat to retrieve his hat, but OK.

Did I read in a previous article that this woman said she came forward to give police her statement because Penny had reached out and asked her to?. I could have imagined that though.
 
  • #611
Also, the question really isn't whether others' knew of Neely's past convictions it's whether that was actually conveyed to Penny.

Penny acted of his own accord, regardless if others' felt scared or not. Again, unless they conveyed that to him then he can't speak for what others felt. For him to do what he did, surely it's for him to prove that HE felt threatened.
 
  • #612
Also, the question really isn't whether others' knew of Neely's past convictions it's whether that was actually conveyed to Penny.

Penny acted of his own accord, regardless if others' felt scared or not. Again, unless they conveyed that to him then he can't speak for what others felt. For him to do what he did, surely it's for him to prove that HE felt threatened.
Penny acted along with two other men in restraining JN. We don't know if that was the first time Penny rode the subway and encountered JN, <modsnip: no source link>

JMO
 
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  • #613
Penny acted along with two other men in restraining JN. We don't know if that was the first time Penny rode the subway and encountered JN, <modsnip: no source link>

JMO
Exactly what I've been saying. We don't know.
 
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  • #614
Sorry if this has already been asked, anyone written an explanation of what happens in the video/timestamps?

I’m really hesitant to watch it because I know it’ll disturb me greatly. But I do want to know what happened and not be totally ignorant. I do really appreciate the details that are being posted
 
  • #615
I think the law in NY does not allow "feeling scared" as a valid reason to initiate physical action against someone else. I think the word is "threatened" and that there are specific components to what constitutes self-defense (which is clearly where anyone is going if they claim JN was killed for "threatening" people). If we all got to kill people who scared us, the world would be a very different place. People obviously have different thresholds for fear, for one thing.

The NY statute actually says "menacing" behavior is illegal (so a citizens' arrest is possible and the menacing person is committing a crime). However, the menacing action is specifically defined as:



Note that it states that the menacing must be directed toward an individual (not a group of individuals). If an individual on that train had actually said, "Please help, this person is scaring me" before DP took action, I think that would help his defense. If he himself felt in fear for his life, well, a jury is going to have to apply the reasonable person standard as stated in the statute. The reasonable person varies from place to place, NYC has its own trials and the jurors will use standards embedded in their own sense as reasonable persons in NYC.

If JN committed a crime, it would have been Third Degree Menacing (no showing of a weapon, only words and actions). It is a misdemeanor. If JN seemed to direct his "I'm going to kill someone" (whatever phrase that was) at one person or even a few people (it cannot be someone far enough away not to be directly threatened), perhaps that's menacing.

Self-defense is supposed to involve enough force needed to stop the threat, and no more. These are things juries are asked to decide. So for DP to use self-defense effectively, it seems to me he has to claim that he acted on behalf of the frightened woman (and there better be testimony from her and from others that she was making her terror known and had reason to believe JN was specifically directed those words at her). It is my understanding that she was sitting down, and that JN was standing amidst the straphangers. How could DP know which of them were terrified? Were there discussions he overheard? Because if not, then he can't claim he acted for the defense of others or in self-defense. IMO.

I don't know what makes feelings "valid," feelings are feelings. We just feel them and many are involuntary. But "feelings" are not a reason to assault someone physically, as DP did. Self-defense is the legal reason. If DP had to get in between JN and this older woman, in an attempt to get between an obviously frightened person (hopefully she was asking for help at the time, if self-defense is to be claimed) and a threat. He still had no legal right to exercise anything more than the amount of force needed to make that woman feel safe again. The way it's judged at court is, again, by the reasonable person standard. If a person is constantly terrified, for example, it's not okay for others to go around killing everyone who terrifies that person.

It's the reasonable person's fear of threat that matters. So if the woman felt individually threatened, the jury will have to hear why she thought she personally was targeted by JN, how JN looked at her or moved toward her and tell the jury how close he was standing to her (he had just got on the car and was in a crowd by the door, so I doubt he was actually looming over her - but she would likely need to have a reason to give the jury as to why she thought he was specifically threatening her). Otherwise, we get way more altercations on trains and vigilante justice. Her feelings matter to her, of course - and to her family/friends. But "feelings" are not valid as an excuse for murder in a court of law. "Speak up" is one of the pieces of advice people are given when something in public scares them. Did she? How did DP even know she was scared until she spoke afterwards? Were they sitting near each other and talking? If so, that changes the whole scenario quite a bit.

Fine line.

Link

Thank you @10ofRods for this detailed explanation of NY law. Makes perfect sense.
 
  • #616
Actual sometimes that brings justice- as in the case of Ahmaud Arbery.

Ironically, one of the men involved and convicted is the one who recorded the attack on Ahmaud Arbery, thank goodness. And of course Darnella Frazier, a mere teen, had the courage and foresight to record LE Derek Chauvin slowly killing George Floyd, likely guaranteeing his conviction. So those who record from the sidelines sometimes are the ones who bring justice. Doing more at the time isn’t always possible. But I know I hope I would have the ability to stop the killing and save someone’s life. I expect we all feel that way.

JMO
 
  • #617
  • #618
  • #619
  • #620
What on earth would be the point of pouring water on JN's head? Penny was no longer holding JN in a chokehold. Grima said they did turn him onto his side at his suggestion but he doesn't explain his reasoning for pouring water.

Grima said he took photos of Neely because he thought he was still alive and posted them to his Instagram account. He talked with a detective on Friday and provided the photos, he told CNN.

It's common to splash some water on a person to attempt to revive them.

The point is to render aid.

It is the only act of compassion directly demonstrated to Jordan Neely as he lay, onlookers hoped, unconscious.


All imo
 
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