NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

[Jade]

Moo..were they scared to challenge Mr Penny? They could of attempted to break his hold, or just tell him that's enough, guess they didn't care either way....moo

Yes, quoted as "intimidated" by Penny.

A stranger, Penny, suddenly has jumped another from behind wrapping his legs around him plunging them both to the floor in a chokehold. Who wouldn't be scared of Penny?

Have you seen the pictures of him at the perp walk? That is a strong hard looking guy angry with no regrets.

Here's a link with the video guy that describes being intimidated and giving up helping becouse he said he wasn't looking to get stabbed:

An Eyewitness to Jordan Neely’s Death

Others thought Penny knew what he was doing becouse of his expressionless calm demeanor and thought Neely would be ok.

A witness did say there were those who didn't give a f.

The thread is worth the read. Wsers as usual have provided a variety of links with excerpts.

Imo

 

[MyBelle]

It's common to splash some water on a person to attempt to revive them.

The point is to render aid.

It is the only act of compassion directly demonstrated to Jordan Neely as he lay, onlookers hoped, unconscious.


All imo

It's common? The guy walked away after suggesting it. I'll wait to hear an expert testify at trial about whether dumping water on JN's head was considered an "act of compassion."

JMO

 

[elevatorific]

It's common?

To answer your question, splashing water on someone to try to revive them is a commonly held belief. I don't think it's actually medically effective, but as far as being common, yes, it is common enough that it is a frequent trope in all genres of fiction (source). I don't believe Grima was a medical professional, so IMO it would make sense that this may have been his immediate thought of how to help. An act doesn't need to be effective to be compassionate.
imo

 

[Dotta]

To answer your question, splashing water on someone to try to revive them is a commonly held belief. I don't think it's actually medically effective, but as far as being common, yes, it is common enough that it is a frequent trope in all genres of fiction (source). I don't believe Grima was a medical professional, so IMO it would make sense that this may have been his immediate thought of how to help. An act doesn't need to be effective to be compassionate.
imo

In former times it was believed someone unconscious could be revived by splashing cold water on the face.

But it is NOT recommended now

Is It An Emergency If Someone Collapses? - Elitecare Emergency Hospital

A collapse—your legs suddenly give way and you fall to the ground—is called by many names: fainting, passing out, losing consciousness. The medical term for fainting is syncope (SINK-a-pee). Before …

elite24er.com

 

[MyBelle]

To answer your question, splashing water on someone to try to revive them is a commonly held belief. I don't think it's actually medically effective, but as far as being common, yes, it is common enough that it is a frequent trope in all genres of fiction (source). I don't believe Grima was a medical professional, so IMO it would make sense that this may have been his immediate thought of how to help. An act doesn't need to be effective to be compassionate.
imo

This wasn't a genre of fiction, it was reality. I see nothing "compassionate" about pouring water on anyone's head, especially if they are collapsed. Grima wasn't even in that subway car when it all happened. He is making this case all about race. No mention of severe mental illness which can make someone extremely dangerous to themselves and others. Penny and the other men who had restrained JN ceased the restraint when he stopped resisting. They tried to make him more comfortable and didn't walk away.

JMO

Fellow subway rider, Manhattan DA speak out on Jordan Neely death

The witness to the chokehold said he regrets walking away because other riders told him Jordan Neely had a pulse.

abc7ny.com

"I saw that his eyes were staring off and the he was limp, so I went in through another door and I went to pour some water on Jordan Neely's head and Daniel Penny came up over and told me to stop," said Johnny Grima who watched the incident from another train car.

"If he didn't have the intention of killing Jordan Neely, I believe that at the least, he did not have consideration for his life because he was poor, homeless and Black," Grima said.

JMO

 

[Jade]

It's common? The guy walked away after suggesting it. I'll wait to hear an expert testify at trial about whether dumping water on JN's head was considered an "act of compassion."

JMO

That's incorrect. I've linked the article for the facts:

The water wasn't suggested by the witness he did it. Turning Neely on his side was the suggestion.

Water was not dumped on Neely.

Some was poured by the witness from a water bottle.

The witness said he was intimidated by Daniel Penny shooing him away and he wasn't looking to get stabbed so he walked on.

The witness is devastated.

To have to hear an expert to know what an act of compassion is will lead to disappointment as the court will not be judging an innocent bystander. Neely was mortally injured already.

The court will more interested in why the perp not only didn't start CPR but blocked others from aiding Neely, imo.

CPR was not started until ES arrived.

An Eyewitness to Jordan Neely’s Death

“It’s shameful,” Johnny Grima, a formerly homeless man, who was aboard the train in which Neely was choked to death, said. “There’s no getting around it.”

www.newyorker.com

All imo

 

[MyBelle]

That's incorrect. I've linked the article for the facts:

The water wasn't suggested by the witness he did it. Turning Neely on his side was the suggestion.

Water was not dumped on Neely.

Some was poured by the witness from a water bottle.

The witness said he was intimidated by Daniel Penny shooing him away and he wasn't looking to get stabbed so he walked on.

The witness is devastated.

To have to hear an expert to know what an act of compassion is will lead to disappointment as the court will not be judging an innocent bystander. Neely was mortally injured already.

The court will more interested in why the perp not only didn't start CPR but blocked others from aiding Neely, imo.

CPR was not started until ES arrived.

An Eyewitness to Jordan Neely’s Death

“It’s shameful,” Johnny Grima, a formerly homeless man, who was aboard the train in which Neely was choked to death, said. “There’s no getting around it.”

www.newyorker.com

All imo

I posted a link to support my opinion: Fellow subway rider, Manhattan DA speak out on Jordan Neely death

I'll wait for the trial and let the jury decide. I'm really not interested in the opinion of someone who wasn't even in the same subway car when the incident happened. <modsnip>

JMO

 

[Ontario Mom]

The court will more interested in why the perp not only didn't start CPR but blocked others from aiding Neely, imo.

CPR was not started until ES arrived.

I'm sure the court will be interested to hear that DP actually remained on scene, and according to his attorney speaking to Anderson Cooper on CNN, actually assisted LE in attempting to save his life by performing CPR properly, until the EMT arrived to take over. So, there's that.

 

[Jade]

This wasn't a genre of fiction, it was reality. I see nothing "compassionate" about pouring water on anyone's head, especially if they are collapsed. Grima wasn't even in that subway car when it all happened. He is making this case all about race. No mention of severe mental illness which can make someone extremely dangerous to themselves and others. Penny and the other men who had restrained JN ceased the restraint when he stopped resisting. They tried to make him more comfortable and didn't walk away.

JMO

Fellow subway rider, Manhattan DA speak out on Jordan Neely death

The witness to the chokehold said he regrets walking away because other riders told him Jordan Neely had a pulse.

abc7ny.com

"I saw that his eyes were staring off and the he was limp, so I went in through another door and I went to pour some water on Jordan Neely's head and Daniel Penny came up over and told me to stop," said Johnny Grima who watched the incident from another train car.

"If he didn't have the intention of killing Jordan Neely, I believe that at the least, he did not have consideration for his life because he was poor, homeless and Black," Grima said.

JMO

Its a WS approved link.

I look for direct quotes from witness as I provided by link not a narrative from the reporter as in yours.

The reporter in your link did not condense the information correctly from the direct interview.

Grima watched it through the window of the car from the platform. The car was stopped at the station.

Watch the video.

The choke was not released when Neely went limp.

The three did not make Neely comfortable.

Why so incensed at Grima? He has his right to impression of the situation. He is a local.

I'm with you on let's get an indictment and get this to court so the real players, the three attackers, can be questioned under oath as to their intent.

All imo

 

[elevatorific]

This wasn't a genre of fiction, it was reality. I see nothing "compassionate" about pouring water on anyone's head, especially if they are collapsed. Grima wasn't even in that subway car when it all happened. He is making this case all about race. No mention of severe mental illness which can make someone extremely dangerous to themselves and others. Penny and the other men who had restrained JN ceased the restraint when he stopped resisting. They tried to make him more comfortable and didn't walk away.

JMO

Fellow subway rider, Manhattan DA speak out on Jordan Neely death

The witness to the chokehold said he regrets walking away because other riders told him Jordan Neely had a pulse.

abc7ny.com

"I saw that his eyes were staring off and the he was limp, so I went in through another door and I went to pour some water on Jordan Neely's head and Daniel Penny came up over and told me to stop," said Johnny Grima who watched the incident from another train car.

"If he didn't have the intention of killing Jordan Neely, I believe that at the least, he did not have consideration for his life because he was poor, homeless and Black," Grima said.

JMO

I understand this is reality, but the question was asked "Is it common?"
My comment was addressing that question. The answer to that, yes it is.

 

[Jade]

I'm sure the court will be interested to hear that DP actually remained on scene, and according to his attorney speaking to Anderson Cooper on CNN, actually assisted LE in attempting to save his life by performing CPR properly, until the EMT arrived to take over. So, there's that.

Why then if Penny was so very helpful to assist poor ole LE do CPR properly why oh why did he withhold his talents in the critical time to apply life saving measures?

Daniel Penny not only did not start life saving measures he stood over Neely and kept others from offering comfort and care.

Why did Daniel Penny not follow protocol of releasing pressure and put Neely in the recover position while being supported instead of leaving him crumbled on the floor?

Of course a fancy defense attorney is going to come out swinging no matter how ludicrous a premise.

All imo

 

[Ontario Mom]

Why then if Penny was so very helpful to assist poor ole LE do CPR properly why oh why did he withhold his talents in the critical time to apply life saving measures?

Daniel Penny not only did not start life saving measures he stood over Neely and kept others from offering comfort and care.

Why did Daniel Penny not follow protocol of releasing pressure and put Neely in the recover position while being supported instead of leaving him crumbled on the floor?

Of course a fancy defense attorney is going to come out swinging no matter how ludicrous a premise.

All imo

I suspect what probably happened was, there was a ton of adrenaline running in all 4 men which can lead to some less than reasonable actions.

By the time Penny released his grip, and the other 2 men had backed off, sadly it was too late to revive Neely, but Penny didn't realize it. When LE got there, and were not using compressions correctly (according to Penny), Penny offered his assistance due to his training.

From all the links I've read, there was only 1 person Penny sort of "shoo'd" away and that was Grima, who tried to pour water on Neely's head. I've not seen anyone else state that they tried to help and were kept (by Penny, or by anyone else) from offering comfort or care.

jmo

 

[Sundog]

Why so incensed at Grima? He has his right to impression of the situation. He is a local.

I'm with you on let's get an indictment and get this to court so the real players, the three attackers, can be questioned under oath as to their intent.

<snipped for focus>

Just because he's a local, doesn't mean his impression of the situation is accurate.

With regard to intent, other witnesses have already made it clear that they were terrified on the subway car and that Penny acted to protect them by restraining Neely with two others from the subway car who joined him. So intent has already been established.

There may or may not be an indictment, and there may or may not be an acquittal. I suspect it will be the latter if this case ever goes forward to trial.

JMO.

edited for clarification

 

[Jade]

I suspect what probably happened was, there was a ton of adrenaline running in all 4 men which can lead to some less than reasonable actions.

By the time Penny released his grip, and the other 2 men had backed off, sadly it was too late to revive Neely, but Penny didn't realize it. When LE got there, and were not using compressions correctly (according to Penny), Penny offered his assistance due to his training.

From all the links I've read, there was only 1 person Penny sort of "shoo'd" away and that was Grima, who tried to pour water on Neely's head. I've not seen anyone else state that they tried to help and were kept (by Penny, or by anyone else) from offering comfort or care.

jmo

It starts with the guy on the video telling Penny he better get Neely into recovery position. I'm on my phone busy so can't bump now post from first few pages explaining chokehold training.
I'll have to do witness quote later.

It comes off as -If you think you are going to save him at least do it right, jeeze-
from a recently Sergeant in the Marines who didn't do it all, imo.


All imo

 

[MyBelle]

I suspect what probably happened was, there was a ton of adrenaline running in all 4 men which can lead to some less than reasonable actions.

By the time Penny released his grip, and the other 2 men had backed off, sadly it was too late to revive Neely, but Penny didn't realize it. When LE got there, and were not using compressions correctly (according to Penny), Penny offered his assistance due to his training.

From all the links I've read, there was only 1 person Penny sort of "shoo'd" away and that was Grima, who tried to pour water on Neely's head. I've not seen anyone else state that they tried to help and were kept (by Penny, or by anyone else) from offering comfort or care.

jmo

BBM. I think you are correct. Grima wasn't even in the car when JN started his rants and threatening behavior. I'm still appalled that Grima started to pour water on JN's head and considered his actions to be "helping" the situation.

The fact that the three who restrained JN let go after he stopped resisting AND checked his pulse AND Penny tried to assist with the CPR will be factors the jury will consider in deciding whether Penny's actions resulted in 2nd degree manslaughter. The politicians need to stay out of it and let Bragg do his job.

JMO

 

[Rolypolyoly]

I suspect what probably happened was, there was a ton of adrenaline running in all 4 men which can lead to some less than reasonable actions.

By the time Penny released his grip, and the other 2 men had backed off, sadly it was too late to revive Neely, but Penny didn't realize it. When LE got there, and were not using compressions correctly (according to Penny), Penny offered his assistance due to his training.

From all the links I've read, there was only 1 person Penny sort of "shoo'd" away and that was Grima, who tried to pour water on Neely's head. I've not seen anyone else state that they tried to help and were kept (by Penny, or by anyone else) from offering comfort or care.

jmo

From my impression of the video, Penny was unconcerned with Neely's condition, he didn't check him for a pulse, he half heartedly put him in the recovery position after someone called out to put him on his side and the other guys who helped didn't do it right, he didn't show any care as he dropped Neely's arms ,which were floppy, before positioning them under his head. He stepped over Neely to reach under the seat and find his hat and then he stood up and waited, probably for his pat on the back.

If he assisted LE with CPR because they were doing it wrong, which seems hard to believe, it feels very much like CYA mode to me.
JMO

 

[Sundog]

From my impression of the video, Penny was unconcerned with Neely's condition, he didn't check him for a pulse, he half heartedly put him in the recovery position after someone called out to put him on his side and the other guys who helped didn't do it right, he didn't show any care as he dropped Neely's arms ,which were floppy, before positioning them under his head. He stepped over Neely to reach under the seat and find his hat and then he stood up and waited, probably for his pat on the back.

If he assisted LE with CPR because they were doing it wrong, which seems hard to believe, it feels very much like CYA mode to me.
JMO

Some of these things are instinctive in a crisis situation, like reaching for your hat. I doubt that has any bearing on the case.

 

[MyBelle]

The sad irony is that if JN had been involuntarily hospitalized after punching and breaking several bones in the face of an elderly woman, he wouldn't have been in the subway at all. Instead, he was cut a plea deal and then walked away from the residential treatment program:

Jordan Neely Was on New York’s ‘Top 50’ List of Homeless People at Risk

Mr. Neely, who was killed by another subway rider, was on a watch list for a city task force that kept track of the New Yorkers of most concern.

www.nytimes.com

In February, Mr. Neely, who had been in jail on an assault charge for punching a 67-year-old woman and breaking several bones in her face, was released to a residential treatment program, under a plea deal that required him to avoid trouble for 15 months, stay on antipsychotic medication and not abuse drugs. Two weeks later, he walked out of the facility and did not return, and the arrest warrant was issued.

Under a directive issued by Mr. Adams last fall, people who are in such a severe state of psychological crisis that they are a danger to themselves or to others are supposed to be taken to a hospital for evaluation, involuntarily if necessary.

JMO

 

[Ontario Mom]

BBM. I think you are correct. Grima wasn't even in the car when JN started his rants and threatening behavior. I'm still appalled that Grima started to pour water on JN's head and considered his actions to be "helping" the situation.

The fact that the three who restrained JN let go after he stopped resisting AND checked his pulse AND Penny tried to assist with the CPR will be factors the jury will consider in deciding whether Penny's actions resulted in 2nd degree manslaughter. The politicians need to stay out of it and let Bragg do his job.

JMO

Correct, Grima even stated himself they were 4-5 cars away when the commotion started.

I've seen it done in movies but I never knew people actually splashed water in someone's face to wake them up or whatever. I guess I sort of filed that in the same category as seeing a hysterical woman slapped across the face to "snap her out of it" as shown in old movies. Just not something people actually do in real life. Or, not something I've ever known anyone to do.

That said, maybe he thought that was a helpful thing to do? I can't say, but it does seem weird to me.

jmo

 

[Ontario Mom]

From my impression of the video, Penny was unconcerned with Neely's condition, he didn't check him for a pulse, he half heartedly put him in the recovery position after someone called out to put him on his side and the other guys who helped didn't do it right, he didn't show any care as he dropped Neely's arms ,which were floppy, before positioning them under his head. He stepped over Neely to reach under the seat and find his hat and then he stood up and waited, probably for his pat on the back.

If he assisted LE with CPR because they were doing it wrong, which seems hard to believe, it feels very much like CYA mode to me.
JMO

Curious how folks can all watch the same video and come away with completely different impressions of what we're seeing. I wonder if the witnesses on the train car that day are the same way? It'll be interesting if we ever get to hear from all of them, and how they all perceived the situation first hand.

In regards to the bolded:

You assume Penny's thoughts and intentions to be malicious and uncaring, while I assume them to be without malice and concerned for the safety of himself and his fellow passengers. I'm giving Penny the benefit of the doubt.

I think he genuinely tried to neutralize a threat of violence and it went terribly wrong.

jmo