NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

[Cryptic]

Look, realistically, what is help?

The best way to give medications to homeless is via monthly injections; there are great drugs that turn things around. But they cost!

Talk about no easy solutions.

Another possibility could be Court ordered treatment pursuant to yet another arrest / conviction. The treatment would then be done in the prison. But, I imagine there are limitations to this as well.

 

[Lilibet]

We'll get the answer to your question as we hear from witnesses in court if the case proceeds, either with a trial or if the charges are dropped if the grand jury doesn't return an indictment.

Until then, all we can do is speculate.

Isn’t “speculate” all we can ever do and what we usually do on WS before a trial? But it’s not “speculating” to question a claim of self-defense when there is no evidence so far that Penny was directly threatened by Neely. The chokehold from the rear would strongly suggest there was no direct threat.

Yes, of course we will get more information from witnesses if there is a trial. But on WS we always look at the evidence we have at hand and form opinions accordingly. Sometimes we are wrong, but without speculation WS might as well shut down.

JMO

 

[Ontario Mom]

What I see there is a physical attack - a scary one, at that! - where those who were able to get away did and were safe, and once the victim there was able to get away, she did as well. So again, how on earth is getting away from a suspicious or scary person a bad thing?

You posed the question "Do you know of any case at all, anywhere, involving an unhinged person on a subway becoming further enraged simply by passengers moving away?"

I shared that link to demonstrate that yes, it does happen.

 

[Charlot123]

I'm sorry, but Daniel Penny's apologies and explanations suck. I found it infuriating when Penny said he couldn't be a white supremacist because he was planning a trip to AFRICA. <modsnip: link quotes an unapproved source/opinion piece>

He is probably not a white supremacist because he is a born and bred New Yorker. I lived in Boston but visited NYC many times. It is so multicultural you can't survive as a white supremacist, or you have to be a total idiot not to see the cultures around you. Neely probably had some character traits that made him a good candidate for the Marines but now are interfering with his daily life as a regular citizen. He probably doesn't want to acknowledge that he is easily irritated to put it mildly. There might have been problems in his life, with girlfriends or whatever. As I have mentioned, specifically VA has great programs for people like him. I honestly think it is not attack on the race, but it is likely attack on the homelessness. ETA. I personally don't see anything wrong in his words about travel to Africa, he was interested in various cultures, that's all. But as tourists, we see little and follow the beaten paths. We don't see the poverty of the places we visit, either. We might be seriously afraid of seeing it.

 

[elevatorific]

It certainly could make it much worse. I, a fit and capable military veteran, am uncomfortable by this man's erotic and threatening behavior. I choose to leave the car and move to the next. I leave behind some elderly folks or some women. Now the erotic man is much more emboldened. I'm sorry, but many people would think, I can't just walk away. We can't encourage an "everyone for themselves" mentality. Would we say "good job" to this young man if he left behind others less capable than him in a burning building? "Don't get involved." Or would we shame him?

BBM. I don't see how that is comparable to what we are talking about. It is almost always advisable to get away from a person who makes you feel uncomfortable. It's horrifying to suggest otherwise IMO.

 

[Charlot123]

Talk about no easy solutions.

Another possibility could be Court ordered treatment pursuant to yet another arrest / conviction. The treatment would then be done in the prison. But, I imagine there are limitations to this as well.

I can tell you, even with involuntary committed, if they agree to take pills, no hospital has the right to push shots. And they do agree to pills, in the hospital. Outside? No. I think it might be severe executive dysfunction. They might honestly forget, or it is not their priority.

 

[Sundog]

If Penny assumed (as one would, after researching the demographics of Africa) the majority population of Africa is black (because it is), then yes, it would seem somewhat ludicrous to assume a white supremacist would plan a road trip where the majority of people are black. <modsnip: quoted post was snipped>

I for one, believe the guy and feel sorry for him.
I feel sorry for JN too.
It's a nightmare all the way around.

jmo

^^^^

Well said.

 

[MyBelle]

It's been mentioned on this thread a couple of different times.

"Disturbing footage recently shared on social media shows a person menacing subway riders, kicking a car window and yanking on a woman’s hair as she tried to escape while other straphangers avoid the outburst. The roughly two-minute video posted Wednesday on Twitter by Joel Fischer shows a person who appears to be unwell screaming obscenities, before sitting down and grabbing a J Train rider’s hair as she attempts to move away. “Somebody help me,” the trapped, anguished woman said softly. Meanwhile, fellow commuters either looked on, moved away from or ignored the pair without coming to her assistance."

Video shows NYC subway rider tug woman’s hair, kick window as straphangers look on

The roughly two-minute video posted Wednesday on Twitter shows a person who appears to be unwell screaming obscenities, before sitting down and grabbing a J Train rider’s hair.

nypost.com

While it's not this case, the very advice some have given in this case is what this woman tried to do.
Look at her face. Look at her fear. It's hard to watch this without your heart hurting for her. This is how "getting up and moving away" worked for her. The comments at the end of the article are interesting, as they 100% pertain to this very case.

That was very painful for me to watch. Thanks for sharing the link!

 

[Lilibet]

Jordan Neely was struggling so hard because he was literally fighting for air, you know, the air that Daniel Penny was recklessly preventing him from breathing.

We have both refuted the argument that Penny held Mr Neely harder because Neely was struggling. We have pointed out that Neely was struggling to get free so he could breathe. There was enough help available to hold Mr Neely in a way that allowed him that fundamental human right for air that Penny denied him. I hope and assume that this obvious logic is not lost on everyone.

JMO

 

[IDK]

BBM. I don't see how that is comparable to what we are talking about. It is almost always advisable to get away from a person who makes you feel uncomfortable. It's horrifying to suggest otherwise IMO.

Wow, I don’t find it horrifying at all. I appreciate those who help their fellow citizens. <modsnip: off topic>

 

[Sundog]

About Penny. The court will decide on the legality. I hope they won't be harsh on him. One question, though, would any of us want to have such a neighbor?

I'd have no problem with DP as my neighbor.

 

[Charlot123]

We have both refuted the argument that Penny held Mr Neely harder because Neely was struggling. We have pointed out that Neely was struggling to get free so he could breathe. There was enough help available to hold Mr Neely in a way that allowed him that fundamental human right for air that Penny denied him. I hope and assume that this obvious logic is not lost on everyone.

JMO

One observation. Mr. Neely was once Michael Jackson's impersonator, but unlike Michael Jackson, Neely had a short neck. Most deadly outcomes that I saw in chokeholds happened in people with short necks. Chokehold is a horrible way to immobilize anyone, unless you are fighting for your life. Mr. Neely was not a deadly enemy to Mr. Penney, but sadly, he turned into one in the process of the struggle.

 

[kittythehare]

I strongly suspect that the investigation would reveal that:

- Neely had refused help on numerous occasions.
- Neely did not think he needed help.
- Forcing an unwilling individual to submit to psychiatric treatment is legally very difficult.

The investigation is a manslaughter investigation, not a social services investigation.
It's highly unlikely to figure in a criminal investigation.
Neely is not being investigated, he is dead.
Penny is being investigated.
Neely's crime file and his psychiatric history and condition will not be relevant and if it is it is because vigilante violence is a factor or becomes a factor IMO

I don't know how many people were in that train when Neely entered.
Only one choked him though two others decided to help the choker apparently.
In the short video we saw one was barely participating and the other was unqualified to help.
His actions appeared quite cruel.
I wonder whether he will be charged too?
He was also the one that was denying Neely was in serious trouble, said he had checked his pulse. Had he really?
I want to know more about him.

 

[MyBelle]

I strongly suspect that the investigation would reveal that:

- Neely had refused help on numerous occasions.
- Neely did not think he needed help.
- Forcing an unwilling individual to submit to psychiatric treatment is legally very difficult.

BBM. The Mayor has a standing order and JN was said to be in the Top 50 yet he was still on the subway.

Mayor Adams Unveils Ambitious Mental Health Agenda Focused On Improving Family And Child Mental Heal

MAR 2, 23-New York City Mayor Eric Adams and New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene (DOHMH) Commissioner Dr. Ashwin Vasan today...

www.nyc.gov

 

[angelainwi]

rsbm
I have seen this stated here. Do you know of any case at all, anywhere, involving an unhinged person on a subway becoming further enraged simply by passengers moving away? Just curious.

Have ridden the subway in multiple urban areas, I have thankfully never witnessed an unhinged person follow a bystander who has chosen to move away from them.

 

[MyBelle]

The investigation is a manslaughter investigation, not a social services investigation.
It's highly unlikely to figure in a criminal investigation.
Neely is not being investigated, he is dead.
Penny is being investigated.
Neely's crime file and his psychiatric history and condition will not be relevant and if it is it is because vigilante violence is a factor or becomes a factor IMO

I don't know how many people were in that train when Neely entered.
Only one choked him though two others decided to help the choker apparently.
In the short video we saw one was barely participating and the other was unqualified to help.
His actions appeared quite cruel.
I wonder whether he will be charged too?
He was also the one that was denying Neely was in serious trouble, said he had checked his pulse. Had he really?
I want to know more about him.

There should be an investigation into why JN, who was on the radar of social services workers-- who are paid to do their job and do it correctly-- weren't helping JN. He was in the "Top 50" considered at high risk, yet he wasn't receiving those services.

It is no different than the murder of AJ Freund. Police had made multiple reports to the state's Dept of Child and Family Services about suspected child abuse in the home. Employee and his boss totally ignored it. They are now are standing trial.

Nearly 20 police reports can be used in AJ Freund DCFS trial

MCHENRY COUNTY, Ill. — Nearly 20 police reports that two DCFS workers allegedly failed to review will be allowed in trial related to the handling of the AJ Freund case. Back in Sep. 2020, Andrew Po…

wgntv.com

 

[caradana]

Have ridden the subway in multiple urban areas, I have thankfully never witnessed an unhinged person follow a bystander who has chosen to move away from them.

Respectfully, I see this often in NYC.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I'd have no problem with DP as my neighbor.

Not a concern in the least having him as a neighbor.
He made a terrible, tragic mistake, he's not a murderer.

jmo

 

[Lilibet]

I'm sorry, but Daniel Penny's apologies and explanations suck. I found it infuriating when Penny said he couldn't be a white supremacist because he was planning a trip to AFRICA. <modsnip: link quotes an unapproved source/opinion piece>

<modsnip: quoted post was snipped> He seems to be quite typical of those who deny they are prejudiced because “Some of my best friends are black.” To Penny, planning a trip to Africa shows he has no ill will toward the black race. I believe he doesn’t think he does. And he may not.

But his comment betrays a certain cluelessness that may make many of us take notice. Having black friends or traveling in Africa does not mean we are free of prejudice that can result in action. It is all too common for any of us to have biases and prejudices we are not aware of unless we are willing to dig deep into our feelings. Having those unexamined feelings doesn’t make us white supremacists in the blatant sense of the word. But they can cause us to think or act in a way that betrays a sense of superiority when under pressure. We all do well to ask ourselves if we are frightened by a mentally ill white man or a mentally ill man of any color who lives in a house or any homeless person or POC at all. Are we willing to be honest with ourselves and admit that color or apparent poverty or mental illness may make a difference in our thinking or action?

I am in no way suggesting that Penny became aggressive toward Mr Neely *because* of his color or homelessness in addition to his frightening display of mental illness. Only Penny can examine himself and answer that question in his own mind. Like all of us, he will be a better human being if he does that hard work to root out unexamined prejudice and bias, regardless of the outcome of this case.

JMO

 

[Charlot123]

Not a concern in the least having him as a neighbor.
He made a terrible, tragic mistake, he's not a murderer.

jmo

Not a murderer at all. He is probably pretty smart and can make fast decisions. Not surprised about the Sgt. I bet he has certain leadership qualities. He didn't make a mistake, I think - he made the decision and accepted the consequences of this decision. He didn't expect it to be a tragedy, this I believe.

I can't name what I see, certain biology that i can only guess about, it is not a mental issue by far and is just being studied, but the magnitude of his response is concerning.

I can tell you when it is good to have such a neighbor - if he is one for ten people on the block and a catastrophe, earthquake, power grid outage, has happened. But if nothing has been going on and you have a dog that howls at night and he came to discuss the issue - you have to be very careful with him.