NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

[Lilibet]

Moo..I thought Mr Neely was living on the streets? Did any of his family share space with Mr Neely?

There are articles early on the thread about his family’s efforts to help him. I apologize for not going back to find them.

 

[LinasK]

Yes. IMHO the closing of many mental hospitals in the '80's directly led to the homeless crisis that we see today; obviously, a lot of the homeless out there are mentally ill who are unable to hold down jobs; take care of themselves; etc.

Would there still be homeless if these mental hospitals hadn't closed?! Absolutely. But, I don't believe the issue would be as bad as it is now.

On this I totally agree with you.

 

[Allabouttrial]

JN had viciously attacked an elderly woman and broke bones in her face with his fist. Was he trying to kill her? I hope she testifies at Penny's trial.

JMO

That's completely irrelevant to what transpired that day. No she won't be testifying, as you're probably already aware.

 

[nao]

There are articles early on the thread about his family’s efforts to help him. I apologize for not going back to find them.

Moo..if they could not get him to comply, what's their issue. ?

 

[LinasK]

Moo..if they could not get him to comply, what's their issue. ?

Their issue is that he didn't need to die. There are non-lethal ways to restrain out of control people that are used all the time in healthcare settings.

 

[Lilibet]

Moo..if they could not get him to comply, what's their issue. ?

Perhaps their issue is that he didn’t need to die?

 

[MyBelle]

That's completely irrelevant to what transpired that day. No she won't be testifying, as you're probably already aware.

It's not at all irrelevant because it goes to JN's pattern of behavior toward elderly women. If the Defense wants her to testify, she'll testify. So will witnesses present during the attack including the elderly woman who called Penny a "Hero."
JMO

Witness to Jordan Neely chokehold death calls Daniel Penny a ‘hero’ and offers to testify on his behalf

“The rhetoric from Mr. Neely was very frightening, it was very harsh,” the witness told The Post.

nypost.com

The 66-year-old woman, who asked not to be identified, also said she’d testify on behalf of Penny, 24, who was charged last week with second-degree manslaughter over the deadly encounter.

 

[SugarQueen]

I don’t believe JN should have died that day. I also don’t believe he should have been out on the streets with his record. The judicial system is too soft on crime in my opinion.
I also don’t believe DP intended to kill him. MOOOOOOOOOO

 

[Allabouttrial]

It's not at all irrelevant because it goes to JN's pattern of behavior toward elderly women. If the Defense wants her to testify, she'll testify. So will witnesses present during the attack including the elderly woman who called Penny a "Hero."
JMO

Witness to Jordan Neely chokehold death calls Daniel Penny a ‘hero’ and offers to testify on his behalf

“The rhetoric from Mr. Neely was very frightening, it was very harsh,” the witness told The Post.

nypost.com

The 66-year-old woman, who asked not to be identified, also said she’d testify on behalf of Penny, 24, who was charged last week with second-degree manslaughter over the deadly encounter.

Penny would have to prove that he knew of the previous attack. If he didn't there's not a chance in hell she'll be allowed to testify. The defense can't just call any witness they like. The DA will object and then the judge will more than likely deem it prejudicial.

I have no doubt that witnesses from that day will be testifying though.

 

[MyBelle]

Penny would have to prove that he knew of the previous attack. If he didn't there's not a chance in hell she'll be allowed to testify. The defense can't just call any witness they like. The DA will object and then the judge will more than likely deem it prejudicial.

I have no doubt that witnesses from that day will be testifying though.

BBM. Penny's defense doesn't have to prove anything. The burden of proof rests on the prosecution. And judges do allow the defense to call witnesses. The prosecution can cross-examine.

JMO

How Courts Work

www.americanbar.org

 

[Allabouttrial]

BBM. Penny's defense doesn't have to prove anything. The burden of proof rests on the prosecution. And judges do allow the defense to call witnesses. The prosecution can cross-examine.

JMO

How Courts Work

www.americanbar.org

Of course the defense are allowed to call witnesses but not just any tom dick or harry. It just doesn't work like that and trying to explain, I fear, is not going to get me anywhere and just give me a headache so....

 

[LinasK]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed> ... there's nothing to prevent the upgrading or addition of charges should more information come out.

 

[MyBelle]

Of course the defense are allowed to call witnesses but not just any tom dick or harry. It just doesn't work like that and trying to explain, I fear, is not going to get me anywhere and just give me a headache so....

I do believe the defense can call any witness they want and then lay the foundation for why they called the witness. They could also call the police officer who arrested JN for assaulting the elderly woman.

JMO

 

[Lilibet]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

The investigation is still ongoing as it always is after an arrest. More charges are always possible. Not predicting there will be, but the door is still open and the current charge does not mean it won’t be found to be a hate crime or charged at a higher level.

 

[Lilibet]

I do believe the defense can call any witness they want and then lay the foundation for why they called the witness. They could also call the police officer who arrested JN for assaulting the elderly woman.

JMO

There is no foundation for the defense to call the elderly woman Neely was arrested for attacking or the police officer who arrested him. The judge can deny any mention of Neely’s previous charges since they have absolutely no bearing on what Penny chose to do.

 

[Allabouttrial]

I do believe the defense can call any witness they want and then lay the foundation for why they called the witness. They could also call the police officer who arrested JN for assaulting the elderly woman.

JMO

No they really can't. There will be no foundation laid because they won't be allowed to testify. @PrairieWind hopefully will be able to explain this in legal terms that I cannot.

 

[Sundog]

I don’t think he was a murderer before he set foot on that subway. Yet he did kill, so he is now a killer. What’s the difference? Words? Semantics?

I think there is a big difference between being charged with second degree manslaughter and murder.

Both the terms "killer" and "murderer" have the connotation of intentionality. Manslaughter in the second degree, for those who have been convicted of it, unintentionality caused the death of another human being. Major difference, IMO.

 

[JennieM]

"A witness stated that at some point during the chokehold, Penny relaxed his grip on Neely, and Neely coughed up a wad of blood and mucus.[31] [...] At 2:29 p.m., a passerby on the train warned that Neely had defecated on himself, a sign that he may be dying, saying, "You don't want to catch a murder charge. You got a hell of a chokehold, man."[2][14] One of the other men restraining Neely responded, claiming that what appeared to be new excrement was just old excrement.[32] One of the men also responded to the warning by saying that Penny had stopped "squeezing" Neely's neck.[14] About 50 seconds after Neely became motionless, Penny and one man who was still restraining Neely's arms released their hold on him.[29][33]"

Killing of Jordan Neely - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Penny carried on with the chokehold even after Neely coughed up blood and mucus and defecated himself. I struggle to see him as a hero as some do in this thread. He attacked a vulnerable person (from behind, without warning, without an attempt to deescalate) in what may prove to be in court an unwarranted attack and killed him.

Neely didn't kill himself.

Neely didn't choke himself to death.

Reading some of the posts in this thread, you'd think Neely did it all himself, and deserved it too, even being questioned why he resisted the chokehold. I guess most of us would just desist and let someone choke us, deprive us of oxygen and not do a thing?

Some posters earlier said that Neely was out of control and shouldn't have been allowed on the subway. Penny seems pretty out of control himself in my opinion. What's worse is that he'd do it again:

But when asked if he would take action again if he were in a similar situation, Penny nodded.

“You know, I live an authentic and genuine life,” Penny said. “And I would — if there was a threat and danger in the present …”

Does he feel he did anything to be ashamed of?

“I don’t, I mean, I always do what I think is right.”

Exclusive | Daniel Penny, charged in Jordan Neely death, breaks silence: ‘I am not a white supremacist’

“I’m deeply saddened by the loss of life,” Penny said ” It’s tragic what happened to him. Hopefully, we can change the system that’s so desperately failed us.&#8…

nypost.com

What is troubling about his interview is that he is not humbled. He brushes off the death. He is not upset about killing Jordan. Jordan had it coming and Penny was there to save the day.

 

[Lilibet]

I think there is a big difference between being charged with second degree manslaughter and murder.

Both the terms "killer" and "murderer" have the connotation of intentionality. Manslaughter in the second degree, for those who have been convicted of it, unintentionality caused the death of another human being. Major difference, IMO.

There is the component of recklessness in second degree manslaughter.

What Is 2nd-Degree Manslaughter in NY? Explaining the Subway Death Charge

Daniel Penny, the former Marine seen on camera choking performer Jordan Neely to death on a New York City subway earlier this month, will be formally charged with 2nd-degree manslaughter Friday. The Manhattan district attorney’s office said it was charging Penny without first presenting his case...

www.nbcnewyork.com

From the link:

New York's penal code says an individual is guilty of manslaughter in the 2nd degree if he "recklessly causes the death of another person."

That differs from manslaughter in the 1st degree, where the penal code requires that the defendant first have the "intent to cause serious physical injury to another person" that ultimately leads to that person's death.

 

[nao]

Omg...moo..just film..do not get involved..ok..that is becoming the usual way.