GUILTY OH Pike Co., 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #62

[Everything22]

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/george-4-28-2021-discovery-pdf.294893/

Hope this works

 

[GoofyJen]

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/george-4-28-2021-discovery-pdf.294893/

Hope this works

Discovery was ready for all parties on 3/25, it seems that Billy, Angela and Jake's attorneys had hard drives provided ahead of time (or quickly upon request) so the state could make the copies right away.

Billy:
Discovery items delivered 4/4
Document outlining discovery items emailed 4/28

Angela:
Discovery items delivered 4/4
Document outlining discovery items emailed 4/28

George:
Discovery items delivered 4/28 (attorneys did not provide a hard drive to the state until 4/16)
Document outlining discovery items emailed 4/28

Jake:
Discovery items delivered 3/27
Document outlining discovery items emailed 4/28

I hope this helps and makes sense.

 

[Everything22]

Discovery was ready for all parties on 3/25, it seems that Billy, Angela and Jake's attorneys had hard drives provided ahead of time (or quickly upon request) so the state could make the copies right away.

Billy:
Discovery items delivered 4/4
Document outlining discovery items emailed 4/28

Angela:
Discovery items delivered 4/4
Document outlining discovery items emailed 4/28

George:
Discovery items delivered 4/28 (attorneys did not provide a hard drive to the state until 4/16)
Document outlining discovery items emailed 4/28

Jake:
Discovery items delivered 3/27
Document outlining discovery items emailed 4/28

I hope this helps and makes sense.

Yes, that's exactly as I understood it. I just don't understand why the defendants were provided with the Discovery before their attorneys were. Sorry I wasn't clear.

 

[Cool Cats]

Yes, that's exactly as I understood it. I just don't understand why the defendants were provided with the Discovery before their attorneys were. Sorry I wasn't clear.

The attorneys get the discovery, not any defendants in jail. Most of the discovery can only be accessed with a computer which inmates do not have.

Their names are there to show whose discovery it is and the Wagners view that evidence with their attorneys.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Would it help if we pinned an explanation of the plea agreement to the first page of each thread so we can easily reference it to those who ask?

There have been a few posters here who have explained what is known about the plea agreement multiple times. Perhaps pinning it would make things easier.

What does everyone think?

I think that's a good idea. The plea agreement seems a little unorthodox, but so are the Ws. I haven't seen one before in which a defendant negotiates the DP off the table for anyone else but a spouse or SO.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Sizes 10.5 and 11 do fit.

I guess in this case it's If the shoes fit, you must convict!

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Betty and Caylee Advocate, you both make good points.

The families must have their wishes respected and the public
needs to be able to fully understand the Wagner Family level of evil.

MO
I imagine the Wagners, regardless of their extensive yet flawed planning, simply thought they could lie and bluff their way out if accused,
just as they have done at times in the past.
Seems as though the bluff and bluster was working for them for a short time.

O/T
I see one of the Carolina States has reinstated the FIRING SQUAD for DP.
I would have liked to have seen that in Ohio for the Wagner 4.

I noticed that too. It was South Carolina, iirc.

 

[molly1255]

Interesting. I kept thinking they must have murdered before to be able to suddenly
kill that many people.

But I think it's what you are saying, that according to the Other Acts Evidence
they got away with just about everything. No accountability.

They even did 2 fraudulent mortgage loans on their way back from AK without consequences. Just another day in the life of the Wagner crime family.

The precedent is what they did to George's wife, all the @#$%& they pulled on her.
Trying to parlay it into a duplicate response from HR which didn't work.

This really bothers me - that Angie was spying on Hanna and George's EX mother-in-law through Facebook messenger and she brought to Jake's attention the messages where Hanna and George's EX MIL were talking about not signing any custody papers "they would have to kill me first."

It's like a catalyst because as Canepa pointed out they killed her 4 months after this statement - a statement Angie deliberately screen shot for Jake. To me this shows Angie egging him on to do something at all cost for custody, thus instigating the murder plot.

Had Angie taken the other road like a normal mother and tried to help work it all out, Jake would not have shot 5 or 6 people. Angie held all the cards, all she needed to do was say no to murder.

She's an extremely controlling mother who kept him isolated with home schooling, encouraged him to always live with her even when having his own child, shared bank accounts with him meaning he was supporting her financially, voting on his personal matters, and so forth. She's so controlling that she actually got Jake on the phone from jail! One jail to another!

Thus, she was the linchpin in his life the most important person with the most influence. I actually think she manipulated him, after all, if your mom says it's OK then it must be OK..right? Mother really is the one who "knows best."

...2 Cents...

 

[sunshineray]

Amen, BettyP. And personally, I want to see Fredericka Wagner charged with all her offenses. I can hardly wait to see the new indictment. MOO based on 4/28/21 Discovery for the 4 Wagners and FW's name and bank accounts and devices seized.

With Jake telling all who knows what the prosecutors now know about the after crimes cover-up. I could see more indictments in the future for certain W family members and/or associates.

 

[Cool Cats]

I also don't need to see the full autopsy reports. I'd also like to know more about the planning and implementing the murders. I'm failing to see what was so exceedingly sophisticated about the W operation. The W's were certainly very brazen, not only in committing eight murders, but also in thinking they were ever really going to get away with it. They made a lot of mistakes.

Something happened in mid 2017 that made the W's flee Ohio and move to Alaska. I'd love to know exactly what happened. I don't think the W's successfully passed their interviews with LE and were finally confronted. I also think the incidences of DV were known to LE and it was known to LE that there was a child custody battle early on. I think it might be possible that LE initially looked at the murders as a possible family annihilation in which members of the perpetrators own family are murdered. The indictment states AW purchased "special shoes" at Walmart. Were these the same kind of shoes worn by JM and were the W's attempting to frame him for the murders? I'd like to know. I'd also like to know about the text message from JW to JM or vice versa that supposedly occurred on the night of the murders. After the arrests, Reader said "all the lies they told", meaning the W's. What were the specific lies?

I don't know who the brain trust was in terms of taking care of all of the surveillance and the purchase of the supplies. AW was videotaped buying the footwear at Walmart. Not too bright, IMO. Everyone knows that Walmart has more surveillance than any other store. She also kept the forged custody documents - wth? Why not shred them? JW had already managed to get custody. The discovery of the forged custody docs required AW to bring one more person into the conspiracy. Her mother. That blew up in AW's face. She then made jailhouse calls to her mother. Did she not think that her calls were being monitored and taped?

IMO, it is a big mistake for anyone to ever believe they are the smartest person in the room.

All JMO.

Good points. I will Bold your text below to add a few comments. Just my view from studying the case.

I'm failing to see what was so exceedingly sophisticated

I don't see it either. To say this conspiracy was sophisticated is the same thing as saying Angela, Billy, Jake and George are sophisticated. And it's like saying their 22 counts of how they conspired, planned, spied, robbed, killed, faked HR's signature, hacked, tampered with evidence, etc, was sophisticated. No, not seeing anything about the Wagners as sophisticated. The opposite.

very brazen, not only in committing eight murders, but also in thinking they were ever really going to get away with it. They made a lot of mistakes.

The 2 biggest mistakes are that they practically ignored the before and after and put their focus mostly on just the crime scenes.
Meticulously covering their tracks at the scenes and then getting nailed on the before:

A long list of purchases, hacking, counter surveillance, fights, custody demands, violence, threats etc...

And nailed on the after:

A laundry list of items found in property and vehicle searches, phone and computer searches (Angie's laptop) and surveillance recordings including on phones. Eyewitness testimony (Jake's wife) and witness statements from people who knew what was really going on.

Something happened in mid 2017 that made the W's flee Ohio and move to Alaska.

Yah, the Wagners were interviewed and then search Warrants were
served on them and their property and vehicles were searched. This is May 2017. By June the neighbor spotted them moving in down the road in Kenai AK. and DeWine had out the laser focus articles.

Seems they moved right at the time the investigation zeroed in on them. I believe they were tired of BCI coming around. George warned his dad not to come down because BCI was there and Jake was avoiding BCI, didn't want to talk to them, according to Scheiderer.

AW purchased "special shoes" at Walmart. Were these the same kind of shoes worn by JM and were the W's attempting to frame him for the murders?

No nothing to do with James Manley. To frame him with footwear they would have to literally steal a pair of his shoes and make blood prints with them. Probably 1,000's of people bought the same shoes from Walmart that Angie bought for George and Jake.

The alledged text message between Jake and James a couple hours after the murders could possibly be Jake screwing with JM's phone. That is suspicious.

What were the specific lies?

Scheiderer said George lied to BCI about the custody situation saying everything was fine and BCI knew this wasn't true. All the Wagners would have lied about that.

BCI knew they were lying about the shoes because they had the prints, probably not known to the Wagners, and got 2 different stories about the shoes from the Wagners.
Angie bought them for Jake and George who hated them so she threw them away and G & J never saw the shoes.

Yes I would like to know more specific lies.
HA! Their Ohio lawyer said BCI wouldn't get back to Billy (for his genius ideas of who done it).

 

[Everything22]

The attorneys get the discovery, not any defendants in jail. Most of the discovery can only be accessed with a computer which inmates do not have.

Their names are there to show whose discovery it is and the Wagners view that evidence with their attorneys.

That's not what it says. It clearly makes distinctions between it was "provided" to defendants and when the attorneys received it. And they are very different.. Just saying.

 

[Everything22]

The attorneys get the discovery, not any defendants in jail. Most of the discovery can only be accessed with a computer which inmates do not have.

Their names are there to show whose discovery it is and the Wagners view that evidence with their attorneys.

Please show me in one past Discovery where this happened...that it is documented that the attorneys received the Discovery "after" it was "provided to the defendants." Not a one. Until April 28 2021.

 

[molly1255]

Good points. I will Bold your text below to add a few comments. Just my view from studying the case.

I'm failing to see what was so exceedingly sophisticated

I don't see it either. To say this conspiracy was sophisticated is the same thing as saying Angela, Billy, Jake and George are sophisticated. And it's like saying their 22 counts of how they conspired, planned, spied, robbed, killed, faked HR's signature, hacked, tampered with evidence, etc, was sophisticated. No, not seeing anything about the Wagners as sophisticated. The opposite.

very brazen, not only in committing eight murders, but also in thinking they were ever really going to get away with it. They made a lot of mistakes.

The 2 biggest mistakes are that they practically ignored the before and after and put their focus mostly on just the crime scenes.
Meticulously covering their tracks at the scenes and then getting nailed on the before:

A long list of purchases, hacking, counter surveillance, fights, custody demands, violence, threats etc...

And nailed on the after:

A laundry list of items found in property and vehicle searches, phone and computer searches (Angie's laptop) and surveillance recordings including on phones. Eyewitness testimony (Jake's wife) and witness statements from people who knew what was really going on.

Something happened in mid 2017 that made the W's flee Ohio and move to Alaska.

Yah, the Wagners were interviewed and then search Warrants were
served on them and their property and vehicles were searched. This is May 2017. By June the neighbor spotted them moving in down the road in Kenai AK. and DeWine had out the laser focus articles.

Seems they moved right at the time the investigation zeroed in on them. I believe they were tired of BCI coming around. George warned his dad not to come down because BCI was there and Jake was avoiding BCI, didn't want to talk to them, according to Scheiderer.

AW purchased "special shoes" at Walmart. Were these the same kind of shoes worn by JM and were the W's attempting to frame him for the murders?

No nothing to do with James Manley. To frame him with footwear they would have to literally steal a pair of his shoes and make blood prints with them. Probably 1,000's of people bought the same shoes from Walmart that Angie bought for George and Jake.

The alledged text message between Jake and James a couple hours after the murders could possibly be Jake screwing with JM's phone. That is suspicious.

What were the specific lies?

Scheiderer said George lied to BCI about the custody situation saying everything was fine and BCI knew this wasn't true. All the Wagners would have lied about that.

BCI knew they were lying about the shoes because they had the prints, probably not known to the Wagners, and got 2 different stories about the shoes from the Wagners.
Angie bought them for Jake and George who hated them so she threw them away and G & J never saw the shoes.

Yes I would like to know more specific lies.
HA! Their Ohio lawyer said BCI wouldn't get back to Billy (for his genius ideas of who done it).

You have a way with words that sums up just about everything! And I agree with all you have stated. Particularly appreciate your comments about them being meticulous while committing the murders but getting caught on the before and the after. So true.

I took a break from the case for a while and had to do some catch up, so I know I missed some things. Interesting that BCI wouldn't get back to Billy. Poor Billy. To be so disrespected by the LE agency that intended to prove that Billy and his family murdered eight innocent people in cold blood refused to give him the opportunity to further talk to them. LOL.

Most people would have felt a paralyzing, overwhelming sense of anxiety and dread to know that they did it, and to know LE was onto them. They were being called out by DeWine with his laser focus and their old place on Peterson and FW's property were being searched with a HUGE show of LE, who were determined to find evidence against them. As all of this was going on, I don't know if Billy, AW and GW4 were living in a constant state of fear and anxiety up in Alaska. But JW went out and found himself a new girlfriend and he married her. It seems he was likely having himself a pretty good time up there, at least for a while.

All JMO.

 

[Betty P]

Discovery was ready for all parties on 3/25, it seems that Billy, Angela and Jake's attorneys had hard drives provided ahead of time (or quickly upon request) so the state could make the copies right away.

Billy:
Discovery items delivered 4/4
Document outlining discovery items emailed 4/28

Angela:
Discovery items delivered 4/4
Document outlining discovery items emailed 4/28

George:
Discovery items delivered 4/28 (attorneys did not provide a hard drive to the state until 4/16)
Document outlining discovery items emailed 4/28

Jake:
Discovery items delivered 3/27
Document outlining discovery items emailed 4/28

I hope this helps and makes sense.

I recall AC mentioning this to the judge in court. Some attorneys were complaining to the judge that they hadn't received the files, but AC said they hadn't brought hard drives for downloading the evidence. It was a game some of the attorneys were playing to be able to complain about the prosecution.

 

[ohioexpat63]

That's not what it says. It clearly makes distinctions between it was "provided" to defendants and when the attorneys received it. And they are very different.. Just saying.

I'm trying to follow this discussion. Is this a procedural issue? Is the norm or was some sort of error made in this particular case? What's the significance?

 

[Betty P]

I think that's a good idea. The plea agreement seems a little unorthodox, but so are the Ws. I haven't seen one before in which a defendant negotiates the DP off the table for anyone else but a spouse or SO.

Yes, a lot of things about these murders and the 4 defendants have been unorthodox. Its a very complicated case to follow, worse than the Manson murders. They had more defendants, but only 2 crime scenes.

Negotiating keeping the DP off the table in exchange for a full confession, with details and leading LE to additional evidence - the weapons, vehicles, etc. is unusual.

Has anyone been able to get a copy of Jake's plea agreement? Just asking, it would be nice to read it.

 

[molly1255]

I recall AC mentioning this to the judge in court. Some attorneys were complaining to the judge that they hadn't received the files, but AC said they hadn't brought hard drives for downloading the evidence. It was a game some of the attorneys were playing to be able to complain about the prosecution.

I agree. That's what I thought, too. JMO, the defense attorneys had nothing to work with because their clients had screwed so badly and the defense attorneys knew the evidence was overwhelming and that they were skunked. Their only hope was to try to throw in subterfuge in an attempt to disparage the prosecution. They tried it, and it didn't work. AC is way too sharp.
JMO

 

[Everything22]

I'm trying to follow this discussion. Is this a procedural issue? Is the norm or was some sort of error made in this particular case? What's the significance?

That's my question. Please go back and read the ends of Discovery 4-28-2021. Attorneys received Discovery "after" it was provided to the "defendants," dates recorded in the last paragraphs of the Discovery for all four defendants. If you need to, go back and compare to previous Discovery documents. Not the norm at all. MOO.

 

[pepper 34]

I think we need a full accounting of what happened that night. We don't need gory photos and we've already received enough information from the autopsy reports.

But we need to know, step by step, who did what, where and when. We need for a distracted public to fully understand how senseless and brutal these killings were. We need for them to know the victims did nothing to deserve their brutal deaths. We actually need for the victims to be humanized, to have their personal stories told so the public sympathizes with them and realizes what a tragic event happened that night. How it devastated many people, left many children orphaned, left a community and entire region living in fear for many years.

The public needs to know the full effect of the damage done and the evil people who were all clearly and fully responsible for planning those senseless deaths.

We need for the public to be left with no doubt whatsoever that the 4 Wagners were fully involved in these murders and were clearly implicated, per the evidence and the confession of the leader. Because some day in the not too distant future, someone is going to try to tell a sad story about how the Wagners weren't that bad and some of them didn't really want to kill everyone, even though they pulled a trigger or participated in the massacre.

We can't have an ignorant public believing they should let any of these monsters out of prison. As sure as the sun comes up tomorrow, someone is going to launch a pity campaign about one "wronged" Wagner or another. I don't think the surviving family members want that to happen either.

The problem is I think its very possible.

I feel, if the public learns nothing else, at least I would be satisfied with each W being attached to the person(s) they murdered... name by name (each W name attached forever to an R name... a human being with every right to live a full life... so it is clear who they personally killed. There should be no, "I killed 5" allowed. That's not even close to good enough, imo. AW can always claim later on that she bought some shoes, hacked HR and babysat that night. No, not acceptable at all. Each W's "contribution" to the actual murders should be made known. Who did each kill and what other role did they play during the time other family members were killed in each home? Because, if a person holds a gun on someone and traps them so another person can come into a room and kill them... then that should be known, too.

I feel the R family will be made aware of this information after the trials so I think they probably can't be hurt much more than they already have been and always will be if the public knows, too. The R's need justice and the public knowing and supporting that justice, I think might actually be helpful to know people are sharing their grief and sadness. They might feel glad to have each W exposed, for all to see, for what they actually did and for what evil degenerates each and every one of them actually is.

I have no need to know any more than this information. My motivation is so the W's have to admit to what they each did so they have nothing to hide behind in the years to come. No gray areas at all... no claiming later that they were convicted only because they were there but didn't actually kill anyone themselves... or have people assume that's the case. Make the truth public knowledge at the earliest time possible. Then nobody can rewrite history to their own liking.

 

[molly1255]

Yes, a lot of things about these murders and the 4 defendants have been unorthodox. Its a very complicated case to follow, worse than the Manson murders. They had more defendants, but only 2 crime scenes.
e
Negotiating keeping the DP off the table in exchange for a full confession, with details and leading LE to additional evidence - the weapons, vehicles, etc. is unusual.

Has anyone been able to get a copy of Jake's plea agreement? Just asking, it would be nice to read it.

If a copy of JW's plea agreement is available, I'd love to read it, too.

Agree that the W case is even more complicated than the Manson murders and those murders and the motive (s) were extremely convoluted.

I think one of the things about JW's plea that it is also unusual is that the death penalty was also taken off the table for JW's family members with the caveat he testify against them. I've never seen this happen before in a plea arrangement but then again, when have we seen a case where four members of one family conspire to commit the mass murder of another family?

JMO