People being detained and "exported" by ICE

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It can equally be said that the ones who really should be held both morally and legally responsible are Biden and Obama and any one of those organizations that facilitated the transportation of people into the country by other than legal immigration means, knowing full well that eventually they would have to be removed.

This isn't tit-for-tat. Whatever criticisms there are of Biden and Obama, they did not literally kidnap and traffic people. That just didn't happen and attempting to compare the two issues is like blaming a rape victim for where she was when the rape happened.

These immigrants are the victims of the Trump administration. They want to deport people illegally here? Fine. Give them a hearing and deport them to their home countries like every single president has done without issue. You don't grab them off the street only to shuffle them -- against their will -- around the country in shackles and keep them locked up for months only to send them to a 3rd world country to be imprisoned, possibly for the rest of their lives. That is not justice. That is how dictators and fascists behave. It's not the country that America is.

MOO.
 
what "whataboutism?"
They are people that are being deported. They are not "US prisoners." Their own countries would not take them, they can't stay here. The last administration put them in 5 star hotels, this administration isn't.

Every time anyone brings up what any previous person did or did not do is whataboutism.
This thread is about people being deported and detained by ICE now.

When a person is deported, they are not deported to a prison - not unless that person's own country has negotiated terms with the deporting country to have a prisoner complete their prison term in their own country.

I have provided one example here before - what was left of the Bali Nine after two executions - but there are other examples.
 
what "whataboutism?"
They are people that are being deported. They are not "US prisoners." Their own countries would not take them, they can't stay here. The last administration put them in 5 star hotels, this administration isn't.

Do they belong in a megaprison that's known world-wide for human rights violations? Do their reputations deserve to be trashed without due process? Do they deserve to have their liberties taken away when it hasn't even been legally established that they've committed a single crime, including being here illegally?
 
Sure, presidents have always had the power to revoke visas and deport. I don’t see anyone here disputing that. The difference is how it’s done and why. In Trumps first term and now, he’s not just enforcing it. He’s weaponizing it.

In his first term, judges repeatedly ruled against him and his cruel ‘Muslim bans’. His bans were struck down, revised, only to still be called discriminatory by federal courts. Judge Sullivan in DC had to order a plane to turn around because a woman known as ‘Carmen’ was being deported DURING her scheduled asylum hearing. Federal judges have called his use of deportations brutal, unconstitutional, and as many of us here are trying to drive home, a violation of due process.

Even in his first term these were NOT routine deportations. They were unlawful, punitive, cruel, and politically motivated. He openly targeted individuals based on religion race and country of origin, and in his first term, he also ignored court orders when they stood in his way. Now he’s not just going back to his baseline. The Trump admin has escalated even further. He’s publicly promising deportations, military enforcement, and giant detention camps for migrants - and now, apparently ‘home growns’ who draw his ire. And he’s surrounding himself with people who openly believe he’s above the law. He literally campaigned on concepts of authoritarian power.

So yes, a visa is a privilege. Yes, crossing unlawfully is illegal. But mass roundups, child separation, military raids and courts being bypassed is a dangerous precedent.

And don’t think it stops at the border. If immigrants can be detained with no process, so can political dissidents. So can citizens who protest. If we normalize illegal deportations and unchecked executive power, we’re next.

Lastly - you want to talk about 300,000 migrant children? Let’s. Let’s talk about how many of them were lost under Trumps ‘zero tolerance’ policies.

Silence then helped create this crisis. Our silence now gurantees it worsens.

All MOO and sorry for the length.
I would say that every person that advocated for, or remained silent about the increasing undocumented immigration situation, helped create this very situation. That is who I blame for the deportations we see. This is the logical and inevitable consequence.
 
But the Supreme Court did agree with Trump that the rule was not a "Muslim ban" and was permitted. They ruled the president's campaign comments were not relevant since the language of the order spoke otherwise. Not all Muslims were banned (in fact most Muslim nations were not effected, and even Muslim from the affected nations could still enter) and some banned were not Muslim or from Muslim nations. The entire "Muslim ban" was a made up scare tactic as the Court stated.
The Supreme Court upheld the third version of the travel ban. The first two were blocked by lower courts for targeting Muslims.

And it passed with a 5-4 split, not unanimously. Sotomayor said it “masquerades behind a facade of national-security concerns” and “now replaces one gravely wrong decision (referencing Korematsu - the interment of Japanese-Americans) with another.”

But we do have a unanimous verdict today, ordering Kilmar Abrega Garcia to be returned.
 
The Supreme Court upheld the third version of the travel ban. The first two were blocked by lower courts for targeting Muslims.

And it passed with a 5-4 split, not unanimously. Sotomayor said it “masquerades behind a facade of national-security concerns” and “now replaces one gravely wrong decision (referencing Korematsu - the interment of Japanese-Americans) with another.”

But we do have a unanimous verdict today, ordering Kilmar Abrega Garcia to be returned.
Sotomayor was wrong legally. She chose to look past the actually order and read into it her own biases, which a Court should not do. The Trump order makes sense legally, logically, ethically, morally.
The Sup Court has NOT ordered that Garcia be returned. They have directed the Executive to facilitate his return. But that is not an enforceable order.
 
Sotomayor was wrong legally. She chose to look past the actually order and read into it her own biases, which a Court should not do. The Trump order makes sense legally, logically, ethically, morally.
The Sup Court has NOT ordered that Garcia be returned. They have directed the Executive to facilitate his return. But that is not an enforceable order.

I would say that many, many people have different moral values than Trump.

The Trump order to send people to El Salvador mega prison is NOT morally correct (or legally, logically, ethically correct).

If it was correct there wouldn't be such a hoo-hah about it. Reverberating around the world.

imo
 
I would say that every person that advocated for, or remained silent about the increasing undocumented immigration situation, helped create this very situation. That is who I blame for the deportations we see. This is the logical and inevitable consequence.

It is not the logical and inevitable consequence when we're a nation of laws. I don't believe any other American president would have handled this way, regardless of party.

MOO.
 
Sotomayor was wrong legally. She chose to look past the actually order and read into it her own biases, which a Court should not do. The Trump order makes sense legally, logically, ethically, morally.
The Sup Court has NOT ordered that Garcia be returned. They have directed the Executive to facilitate his return. But that is not an enforceable order.

They threw it back to Judge Xinis with the 9-0 agreement that Trump facilitate the return. We can play semantics, but for all intents and purposes, the administration was instructed by both Xinis and the Supreme Court to bring the guy back, and not only did they punt to Bukele (big load of BS that they "can't" bring him back, IMO), but they then openly defied Judge Xinis's order, which is why she was contemplating contempt charges. We'll see if they meet her deadline tomorrow.

All above linked earlier in the thread.
 
I didn't see this man posted about (maybe missed it, but the name didn't come up in search)

An Immigrant Held in U.S. Custody ‘Has Simply Disappeared’​

The Venezuelan man does not appear on a list of people sent to a prison in El Salvador, and his family and friends have no idea of his whereabouts.

In late January, Ricardo Prada Vásquez, a Venezuelan immigrant working in a delivery job in Detroit, picked up an order at a McDonald’s. He was heading to the address when he erroneously turned onto the Ambassador Bridge, which leads to Canada. It is a common mistake even for those who live in the Michigan border city. But for Mr. Prada, 32, it proved fateful.

The U.S. authorities took Mr. Prada into custody when he attempted to re-enter the country; he was put in detention and ordered deported. On March 15, he told a friend in Chicago that he was among a number of detainees housed in Texas who expected to be repatriated to Venezuela.

That evening, the Trump administration flew three planes carrying Venezuelan migrants from the Texas facility to El Salvador, where they have been ever since, locked up in a maximum-security prison and denied contact with the outside world.

But Mr. Prada has not been heard from or seen. He is not on the list of 238 people who were deported to El Salvador that day. He does not appear in the photos and videos released by the authorities of shackled men with shaved heads.

“He has simply disappeared,” said Javier, a friend in Chicago, the last person with whom Mr. Prada had contact. The friend spoke about Mr. Prada on condition that he be identified only by his middle name, out of fear that he too could be targeted by the immigration authorities."

Mr Vasquez is apparently not the only detainee who has disappeared. Leon Rengel is another who is no longer listed in the U.S. immigration system and has yet to be identified as being in El Salvador mega prison.

Is there no list of people who have been trafficked to El Salvador? People who are being illegally held there.


.... neither Leon Rengel nor Prada Vasquez have any criminal history of gang involvement. Prada Vasquez had no record in the U.S., while Leon Rengel paid a single fine for marijuana possession in Texas

.... family members in Venezuela haven’t been able to find either man.

A federal judge ruled the El Salvador flights violated the law because the deportees did not receive due process. President Trump’s administration was ordered to return the subjects to the U.S. but has ignored the order.

 
If our government thinks that crossing an imaginary border and living life as a productive citizen without a criminal record in the US is deserving of a life sentence in a maximum security prison-one that by the way barely feeds its prisoners and houses them in inhumane conditions--then we have truly, truly lost our way. If you want to be "tough on immigration," fine, but this AIN'T IT.
 
You are showing very poor taste and illogical concepts, Ms Kelly. One might even call it propaganda.


"Megyn Kelly issued a scathing attack on Pope Francis just hours after the Catholic Church announced his death.

.... blamed the late Pope for helping bring 'illegal' immigrants into the United States and leaving Americans to 'deal' with them.

'The Church has been participating in getting immigrants here and then finding them housing and helping them stay here, irrespective of the fact that they're here illegally,' "



imo
 
Latest reports say they hadn't booked any accommodation.
I think that's lost a bit as the story got around.

They had booked but not for the entire five weeks.
It's kind of like something I would do, if I was going somewhere for that long.
I'd like the freedom of choice, rather than be forced to stay in one spot.
A waste of a holiday.

I don't think they were, naive. I think they were just normal.

Wow what a regimented world we've become.
SHAME


Officials became suspicious of potential illegal work intentions after learning the teens had not booked accommodation for their entire five-week stay in Hawaii, according to Beat of Hawaii.

“They found it suspicious that we hadn't fully booked our accommodations for the entire five weeks in Hawaii,” Pohl said. “We wanted to travel spontaneously. Just like we had done in Thailand and New Zealand.”

Pohl and Lepère say they were handcuffed and given green prison uniforms.
I've been to Hawaii once - my daughter and I stayed at a hostel. The place was filled with European backpackers between the ages of 18-25. Some were tenting. They'd pull up in mopeds for a shower and a bed for the night, then back to camping. Hawaii knows that Europeans backpack around for several months and then return home to study. That's the norm.

It's absurd to think that the 18 and 19 year olds were not travelling with credit cards and ample access to money for their travels. There was no reason to think that they were going to stay and work in the USA.

Furthermore, if customs agents genuinely believed that the girls were carrying drugs that would prevent them from entering the country, the strip-search cleared that up and still they were denied entry.

If they were denied entry based on visa status, or fear that they would work, they should have been denied entry prior to the strip search. If they suspected drugs and got it wrong, then the girls should have been granted entry into the country.

Nothing about it sounds normal.
 
Personally, I am not that concerned about people being denied entry to the US. It happens. As long as they are turned around safely and not put in chains and shackles. And are treated humanely.

It is the round-up of people within the US that is concerning me.

The ones being thrown in jails for a civil matter. Deportation is a civil matter.
The ones being sent to a mega prison in El Salvadore. They have no business 'deporting' to a prison.
The ones who are disappearing with their families not knowing where they are, unable to help them.

imo
 
I've been to Hawaii once - my daughter and I stayed at a hostel. The place was filled with European backpackers between the ages of 18-25. Some were tenting. They'd pull up in mopeds for a shower and a bed for the night, then back to camping. Hawaii knows that Europeans backpack around for several months and then return home to study. That's the norm.

It's absurd to think that the 18 and 19 year olds were not travelling with credit cards and ample access to money for their travels. There was no reason to think that they were going to stay and work in the USA.

Furthermore, if customs agents genuinely believed that the girls were carrying drugs that would prevent them from entering the country, the strip-search cleared that up and still they were denied entry.

If they were denied entry based on visa status, or fear that they would work, they should have been denied entry prior to the strip search. If they suspected drugs and got it wrong, then the girls should have been granted entry into the country.

Nothing about it sounds normal.

I disagree. Their US plans were complicated by their intent to not only stay in Hawaii for 5 weeks, but to also stay in California for some time and then move on to Mexico and Costa Rica. Theyt admitted they would be looking for work in Costa Rica, even though Costa Rica also does not allow working while admitted as a tourist. All the signs were there that they were also going to be trying to work in the US, either in Hawaii or California or both.

For the Visa Waiver Program, the entry allows a maximum of 90 days stay in the US and the applicant must show a purchased ticket for departure from the US at the end of that time. It could be an airline ticket or a bus ticket, but that is one of the rules. The person traveling on the B2 visa is allowed a maximum of 180 days in the US. I would bet that the one on VWP entry did not have that ticket.

True, things may be looked at far more stringently than before, but I still don't think they were complying with the rules of the US tourism Visa entry and I think they should have been denied entry and turned around.
 
Personally, I am not that concerned about people being denied entry to the US. It happens. As long as they are turned around safely and not put in chains and shackles. And are treated humanely.

It is the round-up of people within the US that is concerning me.

The ones being thrown in jails for a civil matter. Deportation is a civil matter.
The ones being sent to a mega prison in El Salvadore. They have no business 'deporting' to a prison.
The ones who are disappearing with their families not knowing where they are, unable to help them.

imo

I concurr that the roundup of alleged non documented aliens and their deprivation of any due process, as required by law is far far more concerning.

Even worse for the complete bobbling of the handling of non documented alien minors.
 
Complicit in human rights violations, in treating human beings like garbage and shipping them off to a foreign prison without due process for a misdemeanor offense at most (and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if LEGAL immigrants are sitting in El Salvador). It is absolutely wrong, both morally and legally. And yes, history will remember every single person who was complicit in this from Trump to Bukele to Rubio to Bondi to Noem.

MOO.
Human beings treated like this !! How anyone can support this or not be outraged by it is beyond me.


from: El Salvador's jails: Where social distancing is impossible

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Human beings treated like this !! How anyone can support this or not be outraged by it is beyond me.
Thank you, Sillybilly! It’s absolutely outrageous. The immigrants are not viewed as human beings by Trump and company. They seem to believe that the end justifies the means. Bukele has reduced the murder rate but at what cost? When we dehumanize others we dehumanize ourselves.

Thankfully, there are consequences for some. Former Philippines president Duterte was just arrested by the International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity for the murders he carried out during his war on drugs.


“Duterte’s arrest on an ICC warrant is a hopeful sign for victims in the Philippines and beyond. It shows that suspected perpetrators of the worst crimes, including government leaders, can and will face justice, wherever they are in the world. At a time when too many governments renege on their ICC obligations while others attack or sanction international courts, Duterte’s arrest is a huge moment for the power of international law.”
 
Human beings treated like this !! How anyone can support this or not be outraged by it is beyond me.
It is shocking.

But I think we would find everyday life in most Latin American countries extremely shocking.

And, the people of El Salvador support it, Bukele is incredibly popular.

Other countries, like Ecuador, are joining this 'iron fist' approach to gangs as the only way to stop the violence and control the gangs are exerting.


Will it work? Time will tell....
 
It is shocking.

But I think we would find everyday life in most Latin American countries extremely shocking.

And, the people of El Salvador support it, Bukele is incredibly popular.

Other countries, like Ecuador, are joining this 'iron fist' approach to gangs as the only way to stop the violence and control the gangs are exerting.


Will it work? Time will tell....

Geez ... the article calls it "sprawling authoritarianism". Exactly what so many people are warning about the US - obviously due to similar things now happening in the US.

Only Trump is using it on immigrants, not gangs. Using it on many people who were trying to escape the gangs and their violence.


"Sprawling authoritarianism
Following a spike in gang violence that left 87 people dead in a single weekend, Bukele curtailed the right to be informed of the reason for arrest and access to a lawyer upon being detained.

By February 2024, more than 76,000 people – almost 2% of the Salvadoran population — had been detained under the provisions of mano dura. Critics have decried the crackdown as a gross human rights violation. Troops have rounded people up for having tattoos and being in poor neighbourhoods, leading to the detention of thousands of innocent people in overcrowded Salvadorian jails.

Instead of taking measures to prevent abusive arrests, Bukele has publicly backed the security forces. There are also few independent judges in the country after Bukele’s party passed a reform in 2021 that gave the supreme court the power to remove judges and force them into retirement."

(from your link)
 
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