Thailand - FOUND ALIVE - 12 Boys And Coach Trapped In Cave , 23 June 2018 #4

[Shiressleuth]

Just discussed the possibility of the rescuers getting a Knighthood with my husband.
"Yes", he agreed, "after Gareth Southgate"

I agree with Mr. Cags.

 

[Spellbound]

I'm so glad they've got several boys out safely! What an ordeal for them.

I'll likely get some carp from y'all about this, but I'm honestly surprised at the amount and degree of support for this coach. This wasn't an "accident." This was a very preventable event. I think it was @beatrixpotter who said in the last thread, and I agreed, that he's not a hero--the people saving them are heroes, the diver who lost his life is a hero. This guy made a terrible error in judgement, and it negatively impacted myriads of people, from the rescuers and their families, to the nearby farmers, to the kids and their families. This wasn't something that was reasonably unforeseeable. It's a huge, deep, long, watery cave! It's not like he took them to a children's museum and a random accident occurred--he took them somewhere which could pretty easily be identified as a possibly dangerous situation, and lo and behold, it was incredibly dangerous, even fatal.

On the one hand, it's nice to see so much positivity. But on the other hand, his poor decision is what got them there in the first place. I'm not saying I want the guy lynched, or necessarily even jailed, but I just can't celebrate him, either! To go into a huge, complex, cave system, right before monsoon season (that doesn't read calendars), with only one adult and twelve children!!! That's a bad ratio for any type of community activity, but to take a group of kids, by yourself, into that kind of situation is not okay and it's not at all surprising something horrible happened. Poor judgement which rises to a level of negligence, in my book.

And now I will duck in anticipation of hurled tomatoes.

Not too mushy, but just enough juiciness. Tho you needn't worry, my throws always fall short.

Personally, I think without his presence we would have no survivors had they gone there alone. So in that sense, he is a hero.

On the other hand, would they have gone by themselves, or gone as far? Or maybe they wouldn't have gone at all. There is no way to know at this time, and I can't condemn him for taking them on an adventure they had done multiple times before. And it was posted in a FB chat to bring water, snacks, and flashlights .... do the parents not monitor the kids social media pages? (A lot don't, so no clue if these did. At least one mother knew, and would not let her son go and take his younger brother. Others likely knew, too)

If other parents and adults knew about the planned adventure, then I cannot lay all the blame on this coach. The weather was good when they entered and no one expected rain, or so much rain to fall that their entrance/exit would become impossible to return to. It wasn't "quite" monsoon season then.

Apparently this was a known cave to at least some of the boys, they had been there before. Parents and head coach knew to go check the cave (and found their bikes, shoes, back packs). No one attempted to stop them from going. I suppose if I was an adventurous kid and lived somewhere like this, I may have been one to go exploring, too. It's a cultural difference, for sure, but seems accepted. Some of the boys were old enough to know better, but they all wanted the adventure. (My kids explored woods and trails even though they were not supposed to and did not fess up. )

Also, I have read one reason some may now be able to swim is another cultural issue --- because of the dangerous, deep, and dirty waters. I'd bet they've been in some where they shouldn't, too.


So, no I do not blame the coach, although possibly for taking them beyond what may have been a semi-safe route. But then I would also have to lay some blame on parents who knew and allowed them to go. And the older kids for going where they knew they shouldn't; and I suppose I can find other people/reasons to lay blame on. But I just can't do that. He literally saved them, and that made up for the near tragic losses. Not in cost factors, of course, but for the bodies he kept alive.

But now I am also remembering the lost diver ... RIP, brave young man.

[can I have my tomato back? I still have some bacon to use up]

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Yes, the coach is a tragic hero. I think that’s why people have so much heart for him. He’s not a dumbrump; he’s an honest, good man who made a calamitous error in judgement. It’s very sad, tbh.

I'm so glad they've got several boys out safely! What an ordeal for them.

I'll likely get some carp from y'all about this, but I'm honestly surprised at the amount and degree of support for this coach. This wasn't an "accident." This was a very preventable event. I think it was @beatrixpotter who said in the last thread, and I agreed, that he's not a hero--the people saving them are heroes, the diver who lost his life is a hero. This guy made a terrible error in judgement, and it negatively impacted myriads of people, from the rescuers and their families, to the nearby farmers, to the kids and their families. This wasn't something that was reasonably unforeseeable. It's a huge, deep, long, watery cave! It's not like he took them to a children's museum and a random accident occurred--he took them somewhere which could pretty easily be identified as a possibly dangerous situation, and lo and behold, it was incredibly dangerous, even fatal.

On the one hand, it's nice to see so much positivity. But on the other hand, his poor decision is what got them there in the first place. I'm not saying I want the guy lynched, or necessarily even jailed, but I just can't celebrate him, either! To go into a huge, complex, cave system, right before monsoon season (that doesn't read calendars), with only one adult and twelve children!!! That's a bad ratio for any type of community activity, but to take a group of kids, by yourself, into that kind of situation is not okay and it's not at all surprising something horrible happened. Poor judgement which rises to a level of negligence, in my book.

And now I will duck in anticipation of hurled tomatoes.

 

[Elainera]

Yes, the coach is a tragic hero. I think that’s why people have so much heart for him. He’s not a dumbrump; he’s an honest, good man who made a calamitous error in judgement. It’s very sad, tbh.

Very well put. I totally agree.

 

[Elainera]

♡♥

Ah how sweet of you! Thank you. But these are not from WS are they?

 

[Hazelnutty]

So happy & relieved that more boys have been rescued!

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Looks like creepcrusher has woken up. Hope you had a good sleep ready for round 3!!

 

[enter_a_name]

I don't know if this is totally accurate, but it gives me a good feeling to believe it:

In Daring Underwater Cave Rescue, 4 of 13 Thai Are Freed
One by one, the first four to be rescued emerged after a treacherous, hourslong journey through the tight, underwater passageways of Tham Luang Cave. Skilled cave divers, part of a team assembled from around the world, hugged the four to their bodies as they swam through the dark.

Teams of divers will attempt to get the remaining five people – four boys and their 25-year-old coach – out of the cave system on Tuesday, multiple local media outlets report.

Officials also hope the last phase of the operation goes faster. After the first rescue on Sunday took 11 hours, Monday's mission was finished in nine hours. At a news conference Monday night, Chiang Rai acting Gov. Narongsak Osattanakorn said the teams are hoping to complete the final extraction in four to five hours, according to Thai Public Broadcasting.

Oh my goodness this made me cry. Thank god for those bravo rescue divers. There is no way to repay them for this!

 

[Gardenista]

Ah how sweet of you! Thank you. But these are not from WS are they?

Not sure of your device, but these hearts emoticons built into my mac work

 

[enter_a_name]

LIAM COCHRANE (4 hours ago)
@liam_cockrane

One interesting thing, Narongsak Osotthanakorn said all boys we’re conscious today, implying at least one of the boys rescued yesterday were not. #ThaiCaveRescue #Thailand

8:01 AM - 9 Jul 2018

I've been wondering about how they are extracting them aside from sending each boy with 2 rescue divers. It's possible that they are medicating them before the dive to prevent the boys from freaking out, jerking, and pulling the oxygen line, mask, etc.

 

[Shiressleuth]

The way I see it is also that kids tend to explore things in their area, whatever it is. Some parents are more like mine were and keep the kids inside and restrict them mostly to playing in the garden. If I went to play with friends in the street I had to stay in a certain section so that I could be seen from the house windows. Other people let their kids go into town at 8 or 9 years old, to go swimming or shopping or whatever. Some people put their 3 yr old kiddies out in the street at 8 am and ignore them. A slightly more reasonable comparison than that one (yes, it makes me feel judgmental lol) is probably a group of 11 to 16 year olds going out to explore local woods or caves or whatever is in their location. For these kids the cave system is part of their local environment, most of us live in different environments, but there's usually something, and a well-behaved group that age I would probably not object to them exploring for the afternoon by themselves...as long as they were back by dinner time.

We know now that that cave can flood starting at the end of June. How often does it flood to this extent at the end of June? Yes, it was raining that day from what I've heard from links posted here, but I also saw a chart that said it does rain in June, just not as heavily as the full-on monsoon months. If they'd gone in on one of those other June days and it rained they would have come out without a problem. This year. But one year out of fifty or a hundred maybe that would have been disaster.

We're missing a lot of details and context. And at the end of the day it's for the Thai authorities to decide, and I hope they will make a fair and just decision taking all the correct information into account. First of all, though, I want everyone out safely and on the road to recovery and good health.

Just think - how bad if the boys had gone by themselves?

 

[Seattle1]

What’s the deal with caves in Thailand

In Thailand, there are caves that are just caves, many are used by Buddhist monks for meditation and others, are well, they're part shrines that are also open to tourists. (BBM)

The Chiang Dao Cave is a temple as it is a tourist destination. There are altars interspersed in some areas and sitting Buddhas. During your walk you’ll find an eerie shrine to a mummified sarcophagus.
Chiang Dao Caves - Chiang Mai - Northern Thailand

Thai locals, armed with just a lantern, are known to support themselves acting as unofficial guides of the caverns upon caverns of large hanging stalactites (mostly) and stalactitesy caves found in Northern Thailand.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Just think - how bad if the boys had gone by themselves?

Makes you think doesn't it, so many cases of missing children on this forum and we naturally assume someone took them or hurt them. There must be at least some cases where they snuck off for an adventure and had some sort of accident.

 

[eucalyptuz]

No tomatoes here but I think what it boils down to for me is the following facts:

1. They had been in the cave several times before without incident. Why would he suddenly think this could happen?
2. It wasn't officially monsoon season yet. The cave sign clearly says to stay out after July but it was still June. So it's not like he ignored the warning at the front of the cave.
3. The parents and family knew about this trip. It was planned, it wasn't a spur-of-the-moment thing. Some told their kids they couldn't go and those kids stayed behind. The boys brought lunches, snacks and flashlights. The kids also had taken many other adventures together such as swimming in waterfalls, rafting on rivers and cycling over mountains.
4. The coach's past makes him sympathetic, IMO. He lost his parents at about the age of 10 and was raised by the monks. In many ways, I think of him as just another boy himself.
5. The intention. He was trying to teach the kids something good, not intending any harm. It didn't work out the way he planned this time. If this was an American Boyscout leader who got stranded with his troop at an annual trip to the Grand Canyon and they all had to be rescued, would you feel the same about the situation?
6. His reaction when the floods came-- he kept them together, kept them calm, taught them to meditate, taught them to only drink water dripping through the rocks, told them to only use one flashlight at a time, etc. He didn't abandon them or panic them or do anything reckless once they knew they were in danger. He sacrificed his food so the boys could eat a little bit longer.
7. None of the locals who know the coach have said they are upset with him or want him to face charges. Only foreigners have brought up the posiblity of charges. The locals have said the opposite-- and that he has treated the boys like his own children in the past. He created a program for the poorer boys on the team to earn sports equipment if they got good grades in school.

It's easy to look at a situation with hindsight and say someone should have planned better or avoided a danger altogether. Personally, I can't find any blame for the coach under the circumstances as we know them. JMO.

I agree with all of this and state categorically that I am a fan of the coach.

...Ekapol Chantawong...

 

[flourish]

love you but <hurling tomatoes>

Hands extra tomato to spellbound for her BLT.

Fixed usually with doxycycline

Ugh I can't even with doxycycline right now. I've been on that stuff off and on for months now (weird actinomycosis infection) and it makes me so sick I have to take a bunch of anti-nausea pills to keep it in me. Sorry, totally OT, I just cringed so hard when I saw the word "doxycycline."

I think you're perfectly entitled to your opinion and have many valid points. I also feel for the coach more than I feel anger at him, but I don't expect everyone to feel that way.

But, we don't know all the details. There are some things that might make me feel more than he more irresponsible and negligent and some things that might make me feel that it was less negligence on his part. I don't have those details.

It sounds like he did do a lot to try and keep the boys alive and calm while waiting for rescue, he suffered too, he seems like a person who's given a lot to his local community which I think is a good thing. But there could be details that would make me feel that it was extreme irresponsibility and negligence.

Right now I am focused on hoping they all get out safely, and on the safety of the rescuers.

I wouldn't even say I'm angry, per se, I just don't get all the accolades.

Yes, you could say the coach is not a hero for taking them in there. But he is TOTALLY a hero for keeping them all alive for 10 days!

It was a silly error of judgement but a trip he (and the team) had made plenty of times. There are no permission slips or risk assessments, it's not like the UK or US where they'd all have been wearing hard hats and emergency equipment. It's generally a wonderfully free way of life that none of us in the Western world can truly fathom unless we've seen it. As someone posted earlier today, it's like comparing apples and giraffes. He will be astonished how quickly the cave system filled with water and will be devastated when he hears a rescuer died. I think he's suffered enough.

I, for one, hope he gets a hero's welcome when he gets out, but I think he'll be the one most affected long-term by this ordeal

He did a great job keeping them alive, yes. And adults are less emotionally and mentally resilient than children sometimes, so he may have a particularly difficult time. I certainly don't wish him ill.

But a "silly error in judgement" still has consequences. Some crimes are errors in judgement, but they're still crimes. It was a deadly error in judgement, unfortunately.

I appreciate other cultures and viewpoints. I don't automatically give a behavior a pass just because it's culturally accepted, though (I'm thinking way more serious things like genital mutilation and such).

 

[Seattle1]

Bangkok current, Tuesday 4:30AM
BST: Tomorrow +6 hours
PST: Tomorrow +14 hours

 

[flourish]

Not too mushy, but just enough juiciness. Tho you needn't worry, my throws always fall short.

View attachment 138187

Personally, I think without his presence we would have no survivors had they gone there alone. So in that sense, he is a hero.

On the other hand, would they have gone by themselves, or gone as far? Or maybe they wouldn't have gone at all. There is no way to know at this time, and I can't condemn him for taking them on an adventure they had done multiple times before. And it was posted in a FB chat to bring water, snacks, and flashlights .... do the parents not monitor the kids social media pages? (A lot don't, so no clue if these did. At least one mother knew, and would not let her son go and take his younger brother. Others likely knew, too)

If other parents and adults knew about the planned adventure, then I cannot lay all the blame on this coach. The weather was good when they entered and no one expected rain, or so much rain to fall that their entrance/exit would become impossible to return to. It wasn't "quite" monsoon season then.

Apparently this was a known cave to at least some of the boys, they had been there before. Parents and head coach knew to go check the cave (and found their bikes, shoes, back packs). No one attempted to stop them from going. I suppose if I was an adventurous kid and lived somewhere like this, I may have been one to go exploring, too. It's a cultural difference, for sure, but seems accepted. Some of the boys were old enough to know better, but they all wanted the adventure. (My kids explored woods and trails even though they were not supposed to and did not fess up. )

Also, I have read one reason some may now be able to swim is another cultural issue --- because of the dangerous, deep, and dirty waters. I'd bet they've been in some where they shouldn't, too.


So, no I do not blame the coach, although possibly for taking them beyond what may have been a semi-safe route. But then I would also have to lay some blame on parents who knew and allowed them to go. And the older kids for going where they knew they shouldn't; and I suppose I can find other people/reasons to lay blame on. But I just can't do that. He literally saved them, and that made up for the near tragic losses. Not in cost factors, of course, but for the bodies he kept alive.

But now I am also remembering the lost diver ... RIP, brave young man.

[can I have my tomato back? I still have some bacon to use up]

I appreciate this response. You offered me some information here which I must have missed or not seen prior. It does help that this was not the first excursion and that it appears many parents were aware and signed off on it.

I still feel pretty strongly that he made a horrible error in judgement, and this situation should never have happened in the first place. Of course, I wish them all well.

 

[creepcrusher]

I'm awake and finally caught up! You guys are blowing up this thread. We're probably going to have a new one soon!

Let's see. Yesterday they went in at 11:00 am Thailand time. I wonder if it will be the same time today.

Also, I had a thought. Maybe officials aren't confirming when the coach will be brought out because they want to bring him out in secret. They might be worried about the controversy. Not so much with the forgiving Thai people, but with the rest of the people that put the blame on him.

 

[flourish]

Yes, the coach is a tragic hero. I think that’s why people have so much heart for him. He’s not a dumbrump; he’s an honest, good man who made a calamitous error in judgement. It’s very sad, tbh.

It is very sad. I don't doubt he's a lovely person. But fatal calamitous errors in judgement frequently have consequences, and this one left one person without their life.

It's just weird for me, I guess....I consider how many posts I've seen here where a mom's boyfriend hurts her child, and people get all up in arms about how she needs all her children removed and whatnot. Someone's even been calling for forced sterilization of long-term drug addicts over on another thread...it's just interesting how some people's errors in judgement can be overlooked easier than others. If, say, the coach was under the influence of marijuana when they entered that cave, would he still be getting the same amount of slack? Rhetorical, just kinda where I'm coming from, I guess.

I'll not belabor my point Back to watching for more news!

Hands all extra tomatoes to @Spellbound.

 

[dyannaON]

Morning is coming! Eeekkk!
Btw we have actually planned for BLTS and salads for dinner tonight. My partner knows ain’t nobody have time for real cooking so he knows no fancy meals! It’s almost morning! Lol Bacon is far as I will go! Fresh garden/balcony tomatoes!