Tiger kills man at San Francisco Zoo (Part 2)

[Clearly Confused]

I'll probably get slammed for this but this is a very GOOD reason why wild animals shouldn't be caged and held in captivity for the amusement of humans. Zoos and circuses are pretty much the same although the zoo's do treat their animals better. To take an animal out of it's natural habitat and expect it to conform to your ideas is ludicrous. It's a wild animal, that wall could be 14 feet tall or 16 feet tall and who's to say what the height should be? A pissed off tiger could probably scale a 16 foot wall just as easily if it really wanted to.

Circuses disgust me to no end as well, they treat the animals like crap while controlling them with whips and then act surprised when someone gets mauled or stampeded to death.

I agree!

 

[LionRun]

If the brothers injured Tatiana, be it with sling shots, or rocks, they should be criminally charged with Sousa's death, and the death of Tatiana, that's why I am hoping Tatiana was skinned, and thoroughly examined for any bruising. Did any of the articles state how many times Tatiana was shot? I'm sure the officers didn't spare any ammunition; they all probably unloaded full clips.

Does it sound as if I am on the side of Tatiana? Yes, I am.

There are a lot more punks left in this world, than Bengal tigers.

It was tragic that both Carlos and Tatiana were killed. I recall that Tatiana was a Siberian Tiger--the largest and rarest big cat in the world with just a few hundred left in the wild. Please don't quote me on this, because this is only my recollection. In any case it is my understanding that these magnificent animals may be gone forever if we don't continue to try to preserve habitat, stop the poaching, and breed them in captivity.

Lion

 

[Jade]

I worked as a zookeeper for almost ten years and anyone who thinks it is not dangerous to be a visitor at a zoo is just not taking in the whole picture.

Even with safe guards there are aspects like human error, equipment or material flaws, breeding season, age, length of time in captivity, etc that can lead to tragedy. Tigers are nocturnal so dusk dark would be an active and potentially very dangerous time. Tigresses are especially ferocious when pushed to extremities (page 272 in the excerpt from the book Thirteen Years Among the Wild Beast of India).

http://books.google.com/books?id=dyfs54y-LqgC&pg=PA266&lpg=PA266&dq=killer+tigers+india&source=web&ots=dROn7ZCUez&sig=XlDU3Fajym62nAEUBn2IlEuqxoE#PPA272,M1

This link will not let me cut and paste but the parts of this book about tigers is very interesting. Page 280 describes their jumping and claw sharpening activities and elsewhere their ability to bound as far as 15 feet is described, page 276- 278 (?)

At the zoo I worked at we never tolerated teasing the animals. Keepers kept a close eye and ear for the telltale signs. The animals get very agitated and often begin self-destructive behaviors out of frustration.

I came across a visitor agitating a baboon to the point it was bearing its teeth and screaming bloody murder. I just had to ask the visitor what if the enclosure failed and the baboon came after him?

I now work at an aquarium and people even try to tease the fish!

Not all interaction with visitors is negative and many animals will interact positively with the visitors. I have seen big cats play like kittens as regular visitors called and cooed to them.

I am so sad about this because modern zoos have noble aspirations [captive breeding for release to the wild, endangered species egg and sperm banks, habitat preservation, rehabilitation of injured wildlife]but the zoo going public makes demands through buying tickets and memberships and they want no barriers in the way of their viewing.

 

[Nova]

Nova, if I am not mistaken, it was AZA (i think these are the initials), the accrediting agency of zoos, that accredited the SF Zoo. Apparently the heights are suggested, not mandatory, but nevertheless, the SF Zoo, had been approved, and inspected, numerous times. The lion and tiger exhibits at SF, have been in place for quite an extended length of time. But any height, that didn't prevent an escape, wouldn't make the zoo any less liable.

Exactly. I know from a case I worked years ago (wrongful deaths at a Six Flags park that had been "passed" by every government inspector) that approval from an accrediting body does not absolve an institution of liability (though that approval will certainly be entered at trial).

If it did, then every institution that ever bribed an official would be free of liability. (And bribing officials is not so uncommon, though I'm not claiming it happened in this case.)

This is pure speculation on my part, but I would bet the AZA (or whatever it is called) "passes" many older zoos, reasoning they don't have the funds to meet modern standards.

 

[Pharlap]

:blowkiss::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I'll probably get slammed for this but this is a very GOOD reason why wild animals shouldn't be caged and held in captivity for the amusement of humans. Zoos and circuses are pretty much the same although the zoo's do treat their animals better. To take an animal out of it's natural habitat and expect it to conform to your ideas is ludicrous. It's a wild animal, that wall could be 14 feet tall or 16 feet tall and who's to say what the height should be? A pissed off tiger could probably scale a 16 foot wall just as easily if it really wanted to.

Circuses disgust me to no end as well, they treat the animals like crap while controlling them with whips and then act surprised when someone gets mauled or stampeded to death.

I agree with you to a certain extent. I believe that zoos are a good thing because when children see these animals with their own eyes it gives them an idea of conservation and preservation, etc. However, I'm in complete agreement with you when it comes to the circus, using them in magic acts and housing wild animals in private homes. They don't belong there and I'd never support those endeavors by paying to see them.

 

[Nova]

:blowkiss::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Much as we love one another, I believe Pharlap is applauding Jade's post, not mine.

And I second the applause. Thanks, Jade, for an insider's perspective.

I hope it's clear that none of us talking about the zoo's liability is excusing taunting the animals.

 

[Nova]

I agree with you to a certain extent. I believe that zoos are a good thing because when children see these animals with their own eyes it gives them an idea of conservation and preservation, etc. However, I'm in complete agreement with you when it comes to the circus, using them in magic acts and housing wild animals in private homes. They don't belong there and I'd never support those endeavors by paying to see them.

I completely agree with Jeana.

 

[Lurker]

I agree Jeanna, to a certain extent. Instead of zoo's, I think there should be more natural wildlife habitats. Up the cost so people have to be taken on tours instead of allowed to gawk through glass or wire. Kind of like an open wildlife African safari. I know, I know, in a perfect world.
My hubby talked me into taking our son to a circus a year or so ago and it still made me sick. As I pointed out everything to him, he saw it too. My son, only 3 at the time asked why they kept whipping the lions. It's a wonder that more of those animals don't turn on their keepers.

And the bull race in Spain? Pulease! Let's go provoke some bulls while they're charging down the street and then cry when we get stepped on or killed.

And rodeos? Does anyone here know how they really get those bulls to act that way?

Anyway, let me stop since I'm getting WAY off topic here.

 

[Buzz Mills]

I worked as a zookeeper for almost ten years and anyone who thinks it is not dangerous to be a visitor at a zoo is just not taking in the whole picture.

SNIP.

Thanks Jade, we really appreciate your first-hand insight.

 

[LionRun]

Thank you Jade, Nova, and Jeanna. Great posts!

Lion

 

[beakiebean]

.......At the zoo I worked at we never tolerated teasing the animals. Keepers kept a close eye and ear for the telltale signs. The animals get very agitated and often begin self-destructive behaviors out of frustration.

I came across a visitor agitating a baboon to the point it was bearing its teeth and screaming bloody murder. I just had to ask the visitor what if the enclosure failed and the baboon came after him?

I now work at an aquarium and people even try to tease the fish!

Not all interaction with visitors is negative and many animals will interact positively with the visitors. I have seen big cats play like kittens as regular visitors called and cooed to them.

I am so sad about this because modern zoos have noble aspirations [captive breeding for release to the wild, endangered species egg and sperm banks, habitat preservation, rehabilitation of injured wildlife]but the zoo going public makes demands through buying tickets and memberships and they want no barriers in the way of their viewing.

It's awful when people can't give even the most basic of respect to these animals. We are members of our local zoo and go often-probably 20-30 times a year. We enjoy seeing the animals and learning about them and have been working hard to teach DD (age 3) about how to behave in the zoo.

Last summer we were there and the giant tortoises were out and were right near the edge of their enclosure. (Just a short wooden fence.) Several people stopped to stroke their backs and say hello and then a group of children came over and started knocking on the tortoise's shell. A zoo keeper appeared in a flash and stopped the children, gave an impromptu lesson on the giant tortoises and what they feel through the shells, and then let people stroke the tortoise under her supervision. I was so impressed at how on top of the situation they were and what a great job they did turning it into a teaching experience.

 

[Nova]

...And rodeos? Does anyone here know how they really get those bulls to act that way?....

Here's a PRO-rodeo answer:

http://rodeo.about.com/od/bullridingfaq/f/bullbucking.htm


Which is quite disturbing enough, thank you, for me. I don't need to read the ANTI-rodeo accounts.

 

[Lurker]

Here's a PRO-rodeo answer:

http://rodeo.about.com/od/bullridingfaq/f/bullbucking.htm


Which is quite disturbing enough, thank you, for me. I don't need to read the ANTI-rodeo accounts.

LOL!!!

I've always wondered how some of those guys can stay on for 8 seconds!
My hubby has some friends who run a rodeo and the one guy is something to look at, he's no longer a rider but he does the commentating. He's got horn marks all over his body. One starts at the corner of his lip and goes all the way up to the corner of his eye (he lost his eye btw). He says it was because he held the rope wrong.

Uh, I think it was because you were riding a bull who didn't want to be ridden. :doh:

 

[Jade]

Thank you all for responding.
I have a certificate from AZA in Captive Wildlife Biology.
Here is a link to the AZA site on accreditation.

http://www.aza.org/Accreditation/Documents/AccredStandPol.pdf

Page 15 describes emergency procedures and drills an aspect that I understand has been under some discussion.

I heard one short report that had a police communication as saying they couldn’t stop the keeper from going onto the zoo grounds. I know he would have died if necessary to do his job.

The AZA is not the zoo’s governing authority. An accreditation for a zoo is no guarantee of safety for visitors it merely provides recognition of the meeting of benchmarks for animal care and protection. Not surprisingly the standards are written to develop policies and ethics for animal care and breeding and insure that conservation and education take place so no animal is kept in captivity in vain.

USDA and state wildlife agencies are more regulatory.

Beakiebean: I am so happy to hear of your good zoo experiences. Sounds like the San Diego Zoo. They have a tortoise enclosure like you describe. That is the Mecca for zookeepers. I received my Communiqué which is the AZA member magazine and saw where a elephant killed a keeper at the Wild Animal Park and when I told my husband about it he said “So there is an opening at the Wild Animal Park?!”

 

[kgeaux]

I heard that news too Pharlap. The woman did say, the taunting was so disturbing that she removed her children from that area.

She also said they were just roaring and acting boisterous.....that would sound more like high on vodka, and falls far short of the type of taunting the zoo hints at. She doesn't mention them throwing things or sling shotting things at the lions, just that they roared at the lions and moved around alot. And although she says she was disturbed by the fact that the lion was bristling enough to compel her to leave, she apparently was not disturbed enough to report the behavior. IF she is a reasonable woman, and it sounds as though she is, that tells me the level of behavior displayed by the guys did not reach the level she thought would need to be reported. In fact, if these guys did not display much more serious behavior by the time they reached the tiger enclosure, then her news falls short of what is going to be needed for the zoo to mitigate its damages.

I am inclined to believe it's possible the guys were drunk, and were acting like drunks......that remains to be proven, of course, but the eye-witness account would seem to support drunkeness.


ASIDE: Why are we still talking about slingshots? Didn't Buzz's article contain the information that police are denying slingshots were found?

 

[JBean]

Thank you all for responding.
I have a certificate from AZA in Captive Wildlife Biology.
Here is a link to the AZA site on accreditation.

http://www.aza.org/Accreditation/Documents/AccredStandPol.pdf

Page 15 describes emergency procedures and drills an aspect that I understand has been under some discussion.

I heard one short report that had a police communication as saying they couldn’t stop the keeper from going onto the zoo grounds. I know he would have died if necessary to do his job.

The AZA is not the zoo’s governing authority. An accreditation for a zoo is no guarantee of safety for visitors it merely provides recognition of the meeting of benchmarks for animal care and protection. Not surprisingly the standards are written to develop policies and ethics for animal care and breeding and insure that conservation and education take place so no animal is kept in captivity in vain.

USDA and state wildlife agencies are more regulatory.

Beakiebean: I am so happy to hear of your good zoo experiences. Sounds like the San Diego Zoo. They have a tortoise enclosure like you describe. That is the Mecca for zookeepers. I received my Communiqué which is the AZA member magazine and saw where a elephant killed a keeper at the Wild Animal Park and when I told my husband about it he said “So there is an opening at the Wild Animal Park?!”

Very informative Jade..thank you.

 

[kgeaux]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2008/01/03/MN9TU8AGC.DTL

Here's a link from the SF Chron - they were taunting the lions when she saw them - not the tigers. Interesting...

Great article, cin! Thanks for posting the link. From the article:

San Francisco police Inspector Valerie Matthews said investigators had talked to Miller on Wednesday but haven't been able to substantiate yet her account of a fourth person with the victims at the zoo. Authorities have been unable to corroborate reports that the victims taunted the tigers, she said.

"I don't know if what they did was any more than what kindergartners do at the zoo every day," Matthews said.


Sounds to me like the police aren't really impressed with the level of taunting Ms. Miller is reporting.

The article also talks about Mollinedo's evasiveness about certain issues. Good read.

I'm still picking up a funny vibe.

 

[Nova]

LOL!!!

I've always wondered how some of those guys can stay on for 8 seconds!
My hubby has some friends who run a rodeo and the one guy is something to look at, he's no longer a rider but he does the commentating. He's got horn marks all over his body. One starts at the corner of his lip and goes all the way up to the corner of his eye (he lost his eye btw). He says it was because he held the rope wrong.

Uh, I think it was because you were riding a bull who didn't want to be ridden. :doh:

And yet rodeo riders always look so purty in the movies (see Jake Gyllenhaal, et al.).

 

[Texana]

Thank you all for responding.
I received my Communiqué which is the AZA member magazine and saw where a elephant killed a keeper at the Wild Animal Park and when I told my husband about it he said “So there is an opening at the Wild Animal Park?!”

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Seriously, my family visited there a couple of years ago, and we loved it. Wonderful experience!