UK UK - Claudia Lawrence, 35, Chef, York University, 18 March 2009 #3

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  • #661
How is it that our security services are permitted to "waterboard" suspected terrorists but we can't do the same to those who refuse to speak about a murder. Particularly when Claudia probably met her Death by drowning or far worse?
I follow your posts with great interest as you have a lot of knowledge and passion for the case. Can you elaborate on "death by drowning". I'm asking because IMO if Libby Squire's body had not been seen in the estuary she would have been carried out to sea, never to be found. Is there a river near York that could have been the drop off point. If the guilty got lucky and the body was washed out to sea they are confident that Claudia will never be found.
 
  • #662
Like I said I liked him least. He used to insult her and as expressed this was met with passive silence by friends within earshot
Did he insult her to her face or behind her back? Did he cast aspersions about her reputation?
Do you think he had an interest in her which he was trying to deflect publicly?
 
  • #663
Ford Focus CCTV:
Collecting/dropping her off?
Backing into driveway on HR?
Braking due to something/someone in the road?
Turning into NH carpark?
Slowing down in anticipation of traffic lights (was driving at speed)?
Main road cam you can see 46 HR so I doubt it

I will say if it was a traffic light thing it could be someone from god knows where shortcutting through the city to the otherside of the ring road, which might explain why they never came forward.

I'm not sure what time Jim arrived in the mornings. Bear in mind Ray cooked breakfast and must have been awake before 6am, and breakfast is usually served from 7am onwards? Depending on the time, is it plausible he was up at 5am? Making him a key potential witness. Presumably if the Ford was Jim arriving, he had a black Megane but had to sell it due to money problems, at a time to suggest Ray had a day off or was on holiday, police would have ruled the car out. I will say Jim and Ray went way back, and those two more than most could be trusted cahoots, but what motive? Financial is all I can think of and I doubt he and Claudia were having an affair, but how good could a missing woman and implicated pub be for business? That said, York is famous for ghosts and grizzly tales. ML said DR owned York/London dungeon at one point? Claudia's disappearance does have the makings of, indeed is, a modern day mystery......
DR business partner owned the London Dungeon, the one who wanted to build a casino inYork
 
  • #664
I follow your posts with great interest as you have a lot of knowledge and passion for the case. Can you elaborate on "death by drowning". I'm asking because IMO if Libby Squire's body had not been seen in the estuary she would have been carried out to sea, never to be found. Is there a river near York that could have been the drop off point. If the guilty got lucky and the body was washed out to sea they are confident that Claudia will never be found.
The Ouse was very close if you look at my Map in Blog and route to Ouse. Also I believe that a female friend of Claudias, lived in an apartment close to the Ouse then.
There was the River Derwent behind the car park of a well known POI's business premises.
The Derwent flows into the Ouse and the Ouse then goes on to flow into The Humber which enters the sea at Hull.
Do bodies at sea though not risk being washed ashore, if not in Uk but further afield and would this have been a risk to Perp(s) if they wanted all evidence to be destroyed?
The body flowing fromRiver Derwent to York and then Humber had a long way to travel either from Malton area or from York and so could it not lodge before sea or even at York area?

The weather at the time of missing was mild enough for Claudia not to wear a jacket on walk home in March and so unlikely that the rivers, occasionaly famous for being flooding and treacherouse were an issue at this time.

I wondered if putting her in a car and scrapping car was a cleaner way of disposing of any evidence, particularly of car had already been registered as scrapped but was driven on evening for the sole purpose of disposal.
There were many car yards that at this time that were supposed to be highly regulated but received "Temporary" licences to operate.
They would either be a scrap merchant themselves or pass the vehicle to a scrap merchant for processing.
I don't know much about the end of life of a vehicle except that before being scrapped, they have to have all fuel, engine parts and airbags detonated and oil is to be removed and disposed of in an environmentaly friendly way (if there is such a thing):mad: Normally, a scrap merchant will also remove any car parts and seats etc. that they can re-sell.
 
  • #665
DR business partner owned the London Dungeon, the one who wanted to build a casino inYork
The casino was going to be built on the land of the Scrap metal dealer Lee Horwell who Claudia had an affair with.
Lee Horwell's brother-Neil, died suddenly in the Algarve.

There was a councillor who was pro the Casino and Horwell was in partnership with the 2 owners of the Vudu nightclub. In the end, other councillors objected to the building of the casino and eventually lee sold the land for circa £800,000 in 2018 to a company that are now building student accommodation on the land.

Who was DR business partner?
 
  • #666
The casino was going to be built on the land of the Scrap metal dealer Lee Horwell who Claudia had an affair with.
Lee Horwell's brother-Neil, died suddenly in the Algarve.

There was a councillor who was pro the Casino and Horwell was in partnership with the 2 owners of the Vudu nightclub. In the end, other councillors objected to the building of the casino and eventually lee sold the land for circa £800,000 in 2018 to a company that are now building student accommodation on the land.

Who was DR business partner?
It was Lee Horwell's business partner, not DR. I think his name is Don Robinson
 
  • #667
Revise that another possibility could be: Ray was openly gay. Was married father Jim and he in a secret sexual relationship? Did Claudia see something one morning/night? I hope not and doubt this is true but could she have been blackmailing them? If so she probably hadn't told anyone else. George and Jim had a difficult relationship, I know this to be true, could there perhaps instead have been leveraging to oust Jim from the business? Claudia maybe saw something, and they saw her, she told George, he without her knowing tried to blackmail Jim? Jim responds by disappearing Claudia, and George coming forward about the blackmail would ruin his reputation and potentially make him liable to stand trial for blackmail anyway? Puts a whole new spin on that Heimlich Manoeuvre on a bus article.
Alternatively but surely not Ray felt threatened by Claudia's input in the kitchen. Did she design the menu layouts/text or the menu itself? Pretty sure she hadn't done when I worked there which means it could have happened shortly before her disappearance? Were there tensions between Claudia and Ray?
 
  • #668
Alternatively but surely not Ray felt threatened by Claudia's input in the kitchen. Did she design the menu layouts/text or the menu itself? Pretty sure she hadn't done when I worked there which means it could have happened shortly before her disappearance? Were there tensions between Claudia and Ray?

Ray was on Holiday when Claudia went missing. His last day at Nags was 17th. He was in Tunisia on the 18th:

"Ray lived during 2008 & 9 in one of the pubs B&B rooms as he was required to be available for Breakfast duty.

Ray went on Holiday to Tunisia on 18th March 2009 and so his room would have been empty as 17th was his last day at work. Ray was very concerned and caring about what happened and returned form his vacation early on 5th April.


In May, Ray became unhappy at work and in June started looking for somewhere new to live and work despite him loving his work as a chef.

Despite this Ray stayed at Nags for at least another 6 years.
Ray now runs a pub in Stockton in the Forest.
Staying at Nags until August 3rd 2015. Jen King organises his leaving present."



Was it rare in 2009 for people to stay at the pub. Today, Tripadvisor records quite a few stays Today....

VERY CONVENIENT FOR SOME THAT RAY WAS AWAY FROM NAGS FOR 18TH-IF NO ONE ELSE STAYING THEN THIS OPENS UP OPPORTUNITIES FOR PREMEDITATED CRIME OR GOINGS ON THAT COULD HAVE GONE WRONG. IM SURE THAT RAY BEING THE CHEF THAT MANY OF THE REGULARS WOULD KNOW THAT HE WAS GOING TO BE ABSENT...??????
 
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  • #669
  • #670
@Yozzer Will likely know who this was?
D0n_R has a large portfolio of businesses including director of Hull_KR_FC and a water park in the Scottish highlands. Based in Scarborough, aged 85, I'm not aware of any links with DER or LH but could be wrong.
 
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  • #671
It was Lee Horwell's business partner, not DR. I think his name is Don Robinson
List of company directors
David neil Horwell Died when on holiday in Algarve at the age of 56-Hence resignation in 2018. No other Directors. Business was started by Father Colin Horwell.
 

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  • #672
List of company directors
David neil Horwell Died when on holiday in Algarve at the age of 56-Hence resignation in 2018. No other Directors. Business was started by Father Colin Horwell.
Lee Horwell is 55 or so, 1970 would make him 49
 
  • #673
Well this is
Lee Horwell is 55 or so, 1970 would make him 49
company listing so can only go by that. Perhaps that was in accurate ?
 
  • #674
Well this is

company listing so can only go by that. Perhaps that was in accurate ?

He's said to be 38 in various newspaper articles from 2009 when the news broke about the affair.
 
  • #675
@MajorLang
VERY CONVENIENT FOR SOME THAT RAY WAS AWAY FROM NAGS FOR 18TH-IF NO ONE ELSE STAYING THEN THIS OPENS UP OPPORTUNITIES FOR PREMEDITATED CRIME OR GOINGS ON THAT COULD HAVE GONE WRONG. IM SURE THAT RAY BEING THE CHEF THAT MANY OF THE REGULARS WOULD KNOW THAT HE WAS GOING TO BE ABSENT...??????[/QUOTE]

And I'm sure that 'coincidence' will have been noted by NYP and prompted a large part of their intense interest in that pub and its inhabitants.
 
  • #676
Lee Horwell is 55 or so, 1970 would make him 49
He became a director at 20 and so probably joined his Dads business then along with his older brother Neil. He became the sole director after Neil's death.

Prior to failure from plans being discussed prior to Claudias disappearance in 2006 as a development between The Horwells and Paul and George Pavlou of Vudu Club in York and then following the failure to have the site developed to a casino:
£8m casino plan for York eyesore

Don Robinson was looking to convert a Night Club into a casino-This was a seperate plan-Perhaps some confusion here @Pinkizzy

There was then a discussion in 2015 about it being student Accom. This would easily receive planning as it was a Brownfield site
He became a director at 20 and so probably joined his Dads business then along with his older brother Neil. He became the sole director after Neil's death. On 14th March 2018 the council agreed to development. A councillor named REID withdrew from the meeting?????

Agenda item - Horwell Brothers Ltd Coal Yard, 11 Mansfield Street, York [17/02702/FULM]

On 14th March 2018 the council agreed to development. A councillor named REID withdrew from the meeting?????

Agenda item - Horwell Brothers Ltd Coal Yard, 11 Mansfield Street, York [17/02702/FULM]
 

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  • #677
The Ouse was very close if you look at my Map in Blog and route to Ouse. Also I believe that a female friend of Claudias, lived in an apartment close to the Ouse then.
There was the River Derwent behind the car park of a well known POI's business premises.
The Derwent flows into the Ouse and the Ouse then goes on to flow into The Humber which enters the sea at Hull.
Do bodies at sea though not risk being washed ashore, if not in Uk but further afield and would this have been a risk to Perp(s) if they wanted all evidence to be destroyed?
The body flowing fromRiver Derwent to York and then Humber had a long way to travel either from Malton area or from York and so could it not lodge before sea or even at York area?

The weather at the time of missing was mild enough for Claudia not to wear a jacket on walk home in March and so unlikely that the rivers, occasionaly famous for being flooding and treacherouse were an issue at this time.

I wondered if putting her in a car and scrapping car was a cleaner way of disposing of any evidence, particularly of car had already been registered as scrapped but was driven on evening for the sole purpose of disposal.
There were many car yards that at this time that were supposed to be highly regulated but received "Temporary" licences to operate.
They would either be a scrap merchant themselves or pass the vehicle to a scrap merchant for processing.
I don't know much about the end of life of a vehicle except that before being scrapped, they have to have all fuel, engine parts and airbags detonated and oil is to be removed and disposed of in an environmentaly friendly way (if there is such a thing):mad: Normally, a scrap merchant will also remove any car parts and seats etc. that they can re-sell.
I read somewhere in this thread that..” the dogs followed claudia’s trail to the river but was dismissed as impossible “
 
  • #678
I read somewhere in this thread that..” the dogs followed claudia’s trail to the river but was dismissed as impossible “
Correct
A senior officer didn't want them to proceed
 
  • #679
I read somewhere in this thread that..” the dogs followed claudia’s trail to the river but was dismissed as impossible “

"A prime example is the Lawrence case - a man was arrested - two houses (one in York and one in North Shields) were searched by a cadaver dog - the dog did NOT signal - the man was released.
This canine intelligence enabled police, who are obviously very determined to solve this case, to focus on other possible solutions. Without the cadaver dog, that man man might still be under suspicion, and police would never have progressed to the current drilling and canine investigation of a totally different location. And, as seems likely, if the dog finds nothing there, this will enable police to rule it out and move on to another lead, until eventually the dog solves the case."
 
  • #680
"A prime example is the Lawrence case - a man was arrested - two houses (one in York and one in North Shields) were searched by a cadaver dog - the dog did NOT signal - the man was released.
This canine intelligence enabled police, who are obviously very determined to solve this case, to focus on other possible solutions. Without the cadaver dog, that man man might still be under suspicion, and police would never have progressed to the current drilling and canine investigation of a totally different location. And, as seems likely, if the dog finds nothing there, this will enable police to rule it out and move on to another lead, until eventually the dog solves the case."
Basically the police dog's nose knows...
 
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